Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[fortbo]

Have you raced other sims? If so, how do you think it compares?

Yeah, it’s closer to something like ACC. The way the cars handled in GTS allowed you to get away with so much that you’d otherwise be unable to do in other sims and in real life. Also, way the cars react to curbs and bumps is definitely a major improvement over GTS where they used to have little to no effect on the car. Now it’s closer to ACC or Iracing although still not quite as punishing in some areas. Iracing has its own physics flaws though but that’s for another discussion.

 

[graesand]

After playing another 10hrs today.

For grip driving, and to get the feeling you are on the limit, the new physics are OK.

The transition over the limit is just wierd. Ive tried suspension tuning in all extremes on low powered cars like miata and rx8 which both are famous for their handling prowess. In their stock form they feel wierd when over the limit. Any suspension tuning ive tried, be it moderate or wild, did basically nothing for the snappy behaviour. At last i gave up and tried to use CH tyres on tsukuba with rx8. Couldnt drift a single corner.

Id like to see somebody with a wheel drift in this game. Also, on my ps4, im having massive frame drops from time to time.

 

[CBH]

I think this is a mayor issue for Polyphony Digital to fix in a patch, if possible. They should make the steering more user friendly, and by that I dont mean, make it "arcade" or for noobs. I mean, there is no need for it to be this sensitive, its not even realistic. So we can say that the physics are currently flawed, broken in the rear wheel stability department. If they dont fix this in some relatively short space of time, then they will just alienate the gran turismo community. I mean the most important thing in a racing video game, is the handling. Even if they organize an official gran turismo tournament, there will be many crashes of racers, and people will see that something is wrong with the game. Otherwise the game is great, they just need to fix this issue. Currently, options for online racing sim fans are rFactor 2, iRacing, Assetto Corsa, Assetto Corsa Competizione, Automobilista 2, Gran Turismo 5,6, Sport. We'll see how the game is in 3 months, 6 months, a year.

The way I see the Gran Turismo series games, is more like a car collecting and history reading game. Also with some fun racing, but we have to live with GTs quirks. Its great that the game caters to all tastes, to the casual racers, and to the racing simulation fans.

You would think they would address these issues with the physics before releasing the game.

 

[s0cks]

Ooops, double post.

 

[s0cks]

Yeah, it’s closer to something like ACC. The way the cars handled in GTS allowed you to get away with so much that you’d otherwise be unable to do in other sims and in real life. Also, way the cars react to curbs and bumps is definitely a major improvement over GTS where they used to have little to no effect on the car. Now it’s closer to ACC or Iracing although still not quite as punishing in some areas. Iracing has its own physics flaws though but that’s for another discussion.

Yeah I get the feeling it is like that. My PC is rubbish so I've only been able to try GTR2 and I found that game way more punishing than GT Sport, and GTR2 is still considered one of the best racing sims despite it's age.

 

[Granadier]

Slicks are incredibly hard to drive at the limit, the loss of grip isn’t necessarily instant, but it’s close to it. Slicks don’t exactly have a slip angle, it’s more so traction and then an quick loss of traction once you go over that limit. That’s why it takes a ton of experience to actually be able to drive slicks effectively at the limit. Drivers can and do safely push to the limit with experience. The best way to describe it from a track day perspective is that it’s not all that hard to drive a car within its limits, it is however very hard to drive it at the limit, even with a road tires traction curve.

Racing tires don't have a slip angle?? What are you even talking about now.

 

[fortbo]

Racing tires don't have a slip angle?? What are you even talking about now.

Let me re word it a bit, it’s not that they have a non existent slip angle, but they don’t have a gradual loss of traction compared to a street tire.

 

[nfsp2kTW]

After playing another 10hrs today.

For grip driving, and to get the feeling you are on the limit, the new physics are OK.

The transition over the limit is just wierd. Ive tried suspension tuning in all extremes on low powered cars like miata and rx8 which both are famous for their handling prowess. In their stock form they feel wierd when over the limit. Any suspension tuning ive tried, be it moderate or wild, did basically nothing for the snappy behaviour. At last i gave up and tried to use CH tyres on tsukuba with rx8. Couldnt drift a single corner.

Id like to see somebody with a wheel drift in this game. Also, on my ps4, im having massive frame drops from time to time.

The GT7 drifting with Normal Steer Angle feels like drifting a GR 3 car with a Road TBA in GT Sport, even harder.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I took my GT by Citroen Group 3 to Dragon Trail Seaside and boy does it feel different from what I remember. The car is far more sensitive over the ripple strips and traction control is required to go fast. I was able to set a much faster lap time with traction control than without, which is good because that's how a GT3 car is supposed to work. One thing that surprised me was the chicane of death - you cannot clobber the ripple strips or you will crash spectacularly. You have to slow down a lot more to make it through.

 

[Granadier]

Let me re word it a bit, it’s not that they have a non existent slip angle, but they don’t have a gradual loss of traction compared to a street tire.

I'd invite you to reference your graph to see that they do indeed have a gradual loss of traction; albeit more abrupt than a street tire.

Regardless, the GT tire model still works off a single-point calculation model and so can't possibly be accurate enough to perfectly model tire's loss of traction. The best it can do is estimate it, which this version of the model does poorly.

 

[JDMKING13]

Took me two hours to gold S-10 I miss shifted so many times omg!!! 2:25.1 I’m really happy all gold!! Once you went off the dry line it was… goodnight folks …

 

[fortbo]

I'd invite you to reference your graph to see that they do indeed have a gradual loss of traction; albeit more abrupt than a street tire.

Regardless, the GT tire model still works off a single-point calculation model and so can't possibly be accurate enough to perfectly model tire's loss of traction. The best it can do is estimate it, which this version of the model does poorly.

The article that graph is from even states that slicks lose traction abruptly with little warning to the driver. Here’s the link, it’s definitely an interesting read. My argument isn’t that GT7 has a great tire model, it’s just that it’s vastly superior to GTSports, and much closer to reality as well.

The Absolute Guide to Racing Tires - Part 1 - Lateral Force

Everything you need to know about the most important characteristic of circuit racing tires: lateral force capability.

racingcardynamics.com

 

[driftnick13]

People are always asking for more realism but seem to complain when it's too difficult for them. And I'm guessing they also won't use the assists because they don't believe they need them 🤷‍♂️

Just keep playing and practicing. Work on your own abilities before jumping to the conclusion that the entire game is broken.

People are always asking for more realism because it's more fun, just like in real life the best drivers cars are the ones that are easy to control at and over the limit, this isn't a skill issue, you shouldn't need to practice doing really basic stuff if you have previous experience.

 

[FA_Hayes]

I'm in the same wheelhouse.

On that note, I finally drove a race car in the game today. I suped up the '03 M3 to about 690pp to do the Nurburgring GP and Red Bull Ring events for a menu quest. I did some minor tuning to minimize the oversteer.

Bugged tire model or not, the driving was incredibly fun. It was truly a joy and I wish I could keep playing tonight but it's time to come back to the real world.

But, yeah, even if the oversteer is somewhat fixable with setup, I'm having major issues saving it most of the time. Countersteering has never been my strong suit but like I said, it feels like there is nothing I can do once it happens.

What I've done racecar wise has been fun. I think GR4 might be fun too. The Trial MT test with the Slophy left me feeling impressed which wasn't the case in GTS.

So far I'm just burning through to unlock more so I can get into racecar stuff. I really have no interest in road cars except nostalgic times of youth. But. It's a really nice game and will keep me occupied while I put the budget together to go PC and upgrade my rig appropriately.

Didn't really plan on it but GT isn't giving me what I want out of sim so it's time to spend more damn money and go triples with ACC or I racing. Lol

 

[Granadier]

The article that graph is from even states that slicks lose traction abruptly with little warning to the driver. Here’s the link, it’s definitely an interesting read. My argument isn’t that GT7 has a great tire model, it’s just that it’s vastly superior to GTSports, and much closer to reality as well.

The Absolute Guide to Racing Tires - Part 1 - Lateral Force

Everything you need to know about the most important characteristic of circuit racing tires: lateral force capability.

racingcardynamics.com

And here is a former Mercedes F1 engineer explaining the concepts of race tire dynamics and why it's not an abrupt, instant drop off.

 

[Seikenfreak]

Pretty much agree with most of what @fortbo is saying. I'm not saying the game is perfect and super real or anything like that. It's most definitely better than Sport. Could it use tweaking? Sure. Everything in every game can. But the game isn't entirely broken and unplayable and omg-let-me-stomp-my-feet-crying-on-the-way-out-the-door-because-I-will-never-play-a-GT-game-again sort of mentality out here..

And Fortbo is correct in saying that HPDEs don't allow slicks for entry level (and maybe even intermediate?) run groups because of their breakaway characteristics. Unpredictable might be a good word for it for someone not experienced with them. Or at least when they do breakaway, you are typically at a much higher speed and thus less time to react which equals recipe for disaster.

Unfortunately, the more people who complain that they can't get golds on everything first try, the more likely Polyphony is going to just buckle under the weight of less skilled people wanting a mainstream, mass audience racing game and then they move the slider away from ACC back towards Need for Speed.

 

[graesand]

Lots of talk about slicks...

Try driving a stock miata on CH and tell me even that tame thing isnt like riding a bull...

The whole game comes across as an unfinished beta. But we have more music rally soon, thank god, coming next update. No wonder internet connection is required when a dev sells a game in this state.

Gran turismo "the real frustrating simulator"

 

[Pfei]

Last night I posted about my Ferrari experience and how I was not allowed to turn assists off. At this same track another armchair racer and the instructor were killed in a Lambo after losing the car in a slide. With assists on. I know it may seem like I am defending the game. It is actually much better than any other GT. But I also agree that there is exaggerated oversteer on many RWD cars and a few 4WD cars. But it can and does happen. https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2017/feb/13/speedvegas-attraction-remains-closed-after-fatal-l/

Lowering controller sensitivity (yes it does work with wheels) and TC1 or 2 depending on the car is fine by me. I just got all gold on the IA license with minimal effort and those are tricky cars. Not bragging or anything, but the game is not broken. Too slippy sometimes but fun and rewarding in my book.

 

[RedRockValley]

Lowering controller sensitivity (yes it does work with wheels) and TC1 or 2 depending on the car is fine by me. I just got all gold on the IA license with minimal effort and those are tricky cars. Not bragging or anything, but the game is not broken. Too slippy sometimes but fun and rewarding in my book.

I tried lowering the controller sensitivity to -1 like you suggested and it made the driving so much better. Able to catch slides way more easily now.

I honestly love how the stock NA Miata feels in this game, it's great to throw around but if you get too cocky, it'll let you know.

 

[O604]

I'm taking it relatively slow. Taking my time. Starting to get the hang of it.

But so far I've felt more in GT7 than GTS on my G29. The most noticeable difference for me has been catching slides. In GTS I was hopeless, once I started sliding I crashed. But on GT7 I've saved it more than a few times already.

 

[s0cks]

Lowering controller sensitivity (yes it does work with wheels)

Is this confirmed? Manual says it's for wireless controllers.

 

[Pfei]

Is this confirmed? Manual says it's for wireless controllers.

Manual also doesn't specify that it is not applicable to wheels like it did in GTS. Give it a try. Do license B-6 ten times on your current settings. Then lower controller sensitivity to -2 and see how the first right-hander goes.

 

[FA_Hayes]

Is this confirmed? Manual says it's for wireless controllers.

It very much works regardless of what you read disagreeing. It worked in GTS too. It was especially noticeable on my DD1. It reacts almost like changing the steering ratio. With some beltdriven wheels or something with a lot of resistance it might not be that noticeable but it does make a difference.

Even the big boys like Fraga ran it at 7 on GTS.

 

[Pfei]

Even the big boys like Fraga ran it at 10 on GTS.

Just to avoid confusion, I am referring to controller sensitivity which ranges -2 to +7 and not FFB sensitivity which is 0-10.

 

[FA_Hayes]

Just to avoid confusion, I am referring to controller sensitivity which ranges -2 to +7 and not FFB sensitivity which is 0-10.

My fault. I fixed it. I'm talking about the same thing and agree with you.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

Some nice graphs here. But I can drive my van quicker around some country lanes than I can an mx5 in this game. There’s just a massive disconnect going on and that’s why so many are confused by it.

 

[Granadier]

Pretty much agree with most of what @fortbo is saying. I'm not saying the game is perfect and super real or anything like that. It's most definitely better than Sport. Could it use tweaking? Sure. Everything in every game can. But the game isn't entirely broken and unplayable and omg-let-me-stomp-my-feet-crying-on-the-way-out-the-door-because-I-will-never-play-a-GT-game-again sort of mentality out here..

And Fortbo is correct in saying that HPDEs don't allow slicks for entry level (and maybe even intermediate?) run groups because of their breakaway characteristics. Unpredictable might be a good word for it for someone not experienced with them. Or at least when they do breakaway, you are typically at a much higher speed and thus less time to react which equals recipe for disaster.

Unfortunately, the more people who complain that they can't get golds on everything first try, the more likely Polyphony is going to just buckle under the weight of less skilled people wanting a mainstream, mass audience racing game and then they move the slider away from ACC back towards Need for Speed.

Have golded every license. Please get out of here with this skill issue nonsense to try and counter actual valid criticisms of a game that has improved a lot, but still could use work. No one is asking for an easier game.

 

[O604]

And here is a former Mercedes F1 engineer explaining the concepts of race tire dynamics and why it's not an abrupt, instant drop off.

For anyone interested, basics are covered in Beyond the Apex. Lots of good info in there.

Beyond the Apex

Gran Turismo Official Website

www.gran-turismo.com

 

[Fuzzi0n]

I don't think the issue is limited to just FR cars, I've found it's just as apparent on 4WD cars, even with the torque split set to 50:50, just insane snap oversteer on SS tyres and below. There seems to be something really off with the weight transfer to my mind, I don't understand how I can get on throttle oversteer in a FWD car but with the diff as open as it can be on decel I cant get any lift off oversteer, even a tap of the brakes with the bias all the way back doesn't really unsettle it.

I'm not a real world racer, but I have a ton of sim racing experience over the years, along with a good few hundred hours in GT Sport. Something just feels weird with the road cars and issue isn't that I want more grip or an easier game, I just want something more believable.

 

[RaceFace85]

Now I can just remember how I had a spin with my RX-8 in real life. I had no chance to catch it and it felt exactly like it is in GT7.

The only small difference was, that the road in real life was wet and slippery. So I would say, that the handling of GT7 is very realistic when you compare dry roads in the game with wet roads in real life.