Gran Turismo 7 Releasing in "First Half of 2021"

[TrevorPhilips]

Then as usual, people went on the defense because they see everything as an attack on PD they have to defend for some reason. That's when all the reasons and excuses popped up.

What are you talking about Samus? Who are these people you speak of in another one of your vague digs? The three people you quoted? Myself, @snc and @ArR29 ? You calling those three posts defensive? Were all PD apologists now because we took your extremely vague post and disagreed with it? Then replied with basically "in game development, set backs happen unforeseen to us" Well no **** Sherlock!

I can't speak for the other people here but I'm no PD fanboy. I've said what I think of Kaz in the past. So I'd appreciate in the future you either not accuse me of "defending for some reason" as if I'm some sort of rabid fanboy who worships the ground PD walk upon, or stop being so vague, through intention or ignorance.

Thanks.

 

[Samus]

I never used the words "apologist" or "fanboy".

I pointed out that GT5 and GTS development took a long time and were still light on content at launch, several people felt the need to defend PD and give me a bunch of reasons for it. Don't see what is vague about that, it's pretty clear to see who quoted me.

 

[TrevorPhilips]

I pointed out that GT5 and GTS development took a long time and were still light on content at launch, several people felt the need to defend PD and give me a bunch of reasons for it.

How is not agreeing with your post in any way "a need to defend PD"? It's not a need to defend PD if they do not agree with what you said. And we all know what you were trying to imply "for some reason" but yeah, you'll continue to hide behind the vagueness of it.

 

[DemioXDTourng]

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Ignore the hole, the hype just went through the roof!

 

[NickXP]

several people felt the need to defend PD and give me a bunch of reasons for it.

And you felt the need to attack PD and gave no good reasons for it.

 

[Samus]

And you felt the need to attack PD and gave no good reasons for it.

The fact you saw my post as an "attack" says a lot.

 

[NickXP]

Yet GT Sport took four years to create and still launched with very little content. It was also the only game they released at all on the"easier" PS4.

there is always a reason (or an excuse). Don't be surprised if there is another new reason/excuse this time around

Well, If that's not a rant or hate or a light form of an attack, then I don't know what is. Do you expect a new GT game every year with thousands of cars? Anyone with a bit of common sense (or at least knowledge of how hard the PS3 was to develop games for) understands that the PS3 or at least the decision to make GT6 a PS3 game still affects them in a way to this day. These developers working at Polyphony are not gods, they can't put out games that are actually good at a quick rate. It's not like as if they can make games at a faster rate with more content and they choose not to do it.

 

[Samus]

Well the first post was a simple fact of reality. Again, go back to the post that started this pointless discussion, I simply suggested to someone that a longer development cycle doesn't automatically mean a bigger, more "complete" game, citing examples of past issues.

That isn't "attacking" anyone, but again, clearly some of you felt it was and had to jump to PDs defense. Nothing new round here.

 

[sundaydriving]

.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Well the first post was a simple fact of reality. Again, go back to the post that started this pointless discussion, I simply suggested to someone that a longer development cycle doesn't automatically mean a bigger, more "complete" game, citing examples of past issues.

It's not the amount of time spent on the game, it's how it's used that determines whether or not it's good.

 

[TrevorPhilips]

Well the first post was a simple fact of reality. Again, go back to the post that started this pointless discussion, I simply suggested to someone that a longer development cycle doesn't automatically mean a bigger, more "complete" game, citing examples of past issues.

That isn't "attacking" anyone, but again, clearly some of you felt it was and had to jump to PDs defense. Nothing new round here.

And I simply suggested that you are wrong to compare 3 dev cycles on 3 different generations of 3 different systems all with completely different architecture. Yet you are still doubling down on this notion that we all jumped to PD's defence. Like I said earlier, I can't speak for everyone but I will speak me, let's go back and look at what you said and what I said and you can point out where I jumped to PD's defence.

Yet GT Sport took four years to create and still launched with very little content. It was also the only game they released at all on the"easier" PS4.

Nothing is guaranteed, not everything correlates as expected.

Funny thing is, you completely ignored @GTJG44 completely valid points of team growth and outsourcing and continued to point to the past about content. Why was that?... Never mind that's not my point, it's his. Mine is ease of development.

Working on different architecture still takes time no matter how "easier" it is to work on. PS2 to PS3 to PS4 dev time is no way comparable to PS4 to PS5.

How is that defending PD? If anything it is criticizing Sony's use of differing architecture through the years. You cannot go from RISC to CELL to x86 and not expect a learning curve. Even the "easier" x86 and most of Sony's Japan studios Engineers being Japanese, for many this would have been their first time out using this architecture professionally. (Probably CISC as a kid, to RISC PS1, to RISC PS2, to Cell PS3, to x86 PS4). It does not matter how good the hardware, API's, toolsets etc. It would take time to get up to speed, it will still take time to triangle, port, proto, test etc. That is all time before you even set your budgets in stone, so to speak.

Indirectly I suppose I'm defending both Sony and Microsoft's decisions to stick with x86 but I'll make no apologies for that. Less unknowns, mature toolsets and knowledge = Quicker development. Simple as that.

You never questioned my claims, only offered up a sentence of how development can slip into longer than expected cycles unforeseen to us. I think everyone who's been gaming for the last few years knows that by now, that's not news to anyone. It's happens to every developer at some point, in every field of development not exclusive to gaming, sometimes public sometimes internal. Things change and problems arise, chances are taken, some work some don't. They have in the past and they will do again. Not news.

And now you paint us all with the same brush. No. Not having it. Looks to me like you quickly developed some sort of persecution complex.

 

[GTFan24]

Oh... this became another whining thread...

Buisness as usual then in the GT forums

 

[Samus]

And I simply suggested that you are wrong to compare 3 dev cycles on 3 different generations of 3 different systems all with completely different architecture. Yet you are still doubling down on this notion that we all jumped to PD's defence. Like I said earlier, I can't speak for everyone but I will speak me, let's go back and look at what you said and what I said and you can point out where I jumped to PD's defence.



Funny thing is, you completely ignored @GTJG44 completely valid points of team growth and outsourcing and continued to point to the past about content. Why was that?... Never mind that's not my point, it's his. Mine is ease of development.



How is that defending PD? If anything it is criticizing Sony's use of differing architecture through the years. You cannot go from RISC to CELL to x86 and not expect a learning curve. Even the "easier" x86 and most of Sony's Japan studios Engineers being Japanese, for many this would have been their first time out using this architecture professionally. (Probably CISC as a kid, to RISC PS1, to RISC PS2, to Cell PS3, to x86 PS4). It does not matter how good the hardware, API's, toolsets etc. It would take time to get up to speed, it will still take time to triangle, port, proto, test etc. That is all time before you even set your budgets in stone, so to speak.

Indirectly I suppose I'm defending both Sony and Microsoft's decisions to stick with x86 but I'll make no apologies for that. Less unknowns, mature toolsets and knowledge = Quicker development. Simple as that.

You never questioned my claims, only offered up a sentence of how development can slip into longer than expected cycles unforeseen to us. I think everyone who's been gaming for the last few years knows that by now, that's not news to anyone. It's happens to every developer at some point, in every field of development not exclusive to gaming, sometimes public sometimes internal. Things change and problems arise, chances are taken, some work some don't. They have in the past and they will do again. Not news.

And now you paint us all with the same brush. No. Not having it. Looks to me like you quickly developed some sort of persecution complex.

Yet plenty of other studios managed far better. PS2 to PS3 was a change of architecture, a harder one by all accounts, yet PD themselves managed to get a game out faster (albeit a prologue) and then delivered two further full games on PS3, albeit with issues. Yet on the supposedly "easier" change from PS3 to PS4 they managed only one game with less content at launch than any other previous full price games. Hence my "warning" and scepticism that the PS4>PS5 hardware step being simpler than ever before is no guarantee of anything. Which apparently makes me a a whiner now (No, I don't mean you).

Why did my initial post need a reply at all? All I said is longer development times don't mean anything, but because I mentioned GT5 being barebones some people (not you) got (IMO) defensive. Then I point out the facts of GTS development on PS4 and again reiterated that it means very little, and again people take issue. I can only make judgement at the end of the keyboard, but it felt defensive. If it wasn't, then fair enough. Words on a screen are always hard to judge tone and intent.

I didn't question your actual claims because there was nothing to question, I agree that on paper PS4 to PS5 is going to be far easier than anything else before it. Again, I was simply saying that it is no guarantee of a smooth ride which yes, probably is stating the obvious but we've not exactly got anything tangible to talk about right now, 99% of this forum is pretty pointless chit chat right now.

I wouldn't be back on this board if I didn't want and hope GT7 to be a great and successful game. I'm just a very pessimistic, glass half empty kinda person. I just get frustrated when it feels like you can't say anything even mildly critical of PD without people having a go at you for it, and feeling like they have to defend PD against me. Again, if I misread that intent, then I apologise.

 

[GBalao888]

I'll be disappointed if this song isn't in the soundtrack

I will honestly be hugely disappointed if "Ice Cream" by Black Pink is in GT7.

 

[oneloops]

Yet plenty of other studios managed far better. PS2 to PS3 was a change of architecture, a harder one by all accounts, yet PD themselves managed to get a game out faster (albeit a prologue) and then delivered two further full games on PS3, albeit with issues. Yet on the supposedly "easier" change from PS3 to PS4 they managed only one game with less content at launch than any other previous full price games. Hence my "warning" and scepticism that the PS4>PS5 hardware step being simpler than ever before is no guarantee of anything. Which apparently makes me a a whiner now (No, I don't mean you).

Why did my initial post need a reply at all? All I said is longer development times don't mean anything, but because I mentioned GT5 being barebones some people (not you) got (IMO) defensive. Then I point out the facts of GTS development on PS4 and again reiterated that it means very little, and again people take issue. I can only make judgement at the end of the keyboard, but it felt defensive. If it wasn't, then fair enough. Words on a screen are always hard to judge tone and intent.

I didn't question your actual claims because there was nothing to question, I agree that on paper PS4 to PS5 is going to be far easier than anything else before it. Again, I was simply saying that it is no guarantee of a smooth ride which yes, probably is stating the obvious but we've not exactly got anything tangible to talk about right now, 99% of this forum is pretty pointless chit chat right now.

I wouldn't be back on this board if I didn't want and hope GT7 to be a great and successful game. I'm just a very pessimistic, glass half empty kinda person. I just get frustrated when it feels like you can't say anything even mildly critical of PD without people having a go at you for it, and feeling like they have to defend PD against me. Again, if I misread that intent, then I apologise.

The fact that other studios managed better delays doesn't mean that PD gave excuses.

"Only one game" on PS4 because GT6 was launched on PS3 at the beggining of the PS4 era and because PD wanted to do GTS as a base for GT7 without rewriting and remodelling all again and again.

You take one data from the past and extrapolate onto the future with simplistic arguments.

 

[TS050]

It’s weird to see the phrase “can’t even be mildly critical of PD without someone attacking you for it” when I feel like it’s literally the complete opposite

You can barely praise aspects of this game without some of the usual suspects coming out to tell you you’re wrong for it

 

[JTB10000]

I see both quite often when I check this site, specifically general discussion threads. After the fruitless back and forths of "PD is great, you're being too negative" and "no you're wrong, PD is horrible and the Gran Turismo series is doomed", one side rage quits the argument and there's a short cool-off of actual civil discussion until someone harshly craps on PD or sings PD's praises again and the cycle repeats.

 

[Tornado]

1040 cars isn't exactly barebones

I'm amused that you're still arguing this as if 2/3rds of the game's content being poorly ported from the previous console generation overrides Kaz himself personally apologizing for the state that GT5 released in. As if reviews of the game at launch didn't specifically note how slapdash the game seemed to be despite the content and advances in physics.

So behind was the development that the game had to be pushed back nearly a month because (IIRC) they didn't even have time to include a PS3 firmware update on the disc. Extremely basic functionality was missing from the game and/or blatantly broken and game performance was awful in spots, a couple of things I remember Kaz even specifically saying would be fixed as soon as they could; but PD carpet bombing the game with tracks and cars from the PS2 (while breaking a bunch of it in the process) means everything was hunky dory when it came out.

 

[ImaRobot]

It’s weird to see the phrase “can’t even be mildly critical of PD without someone attacking you for it” when I feel like it’s literally the complete opposite

You can barely praise aspects of this game without some of the usual suspects coming out to tell you you’re wrong for it

It's not the complete opposite, It's really just both are happening.

 

[Samus]

The fact that other studios managed better delays doesn't mean that PD gave excuses.

"Only one game" on PS4 because GT6 was launched on PS3 at the beggining of the PS4 era and because PD wanted to do GTS as a base for GT7 without rewriting and remodelling all again and again.

You take one data from the past and extrapolate onto the future with simplistic arguments.

Nope, I'm literally just stating facts. Most other studios put out more games than PD. PD only put out one, four years into the generation.

You can theorise the reasons all you want, doesn't change that fact. Also again please read properly, I have never said that PD were making excuses.

 

[Zlork]

Nope, I'm literally just stating facts. Most other studios put out more games than PD. PD only put out one, four years into the generation.

You can theorise the reasons all you want, doesn't change that fact. Also again please read properly, I have never said that PD were making excuses.

The facts ?

Naughty Dog PS3 : 4 games and 1 addon ; PS4 : 2 games and 1 addon
Santa Monica PS3 : 2 games ; PS4 : 1 game
Insomniac Games PS3 : 10 games ; PS4 : 2 games
Guerilla Games : PS3 : 2 games ; PS4 : 2 games
Media Molecule : PS3 : 2 games ; PS4 : 1 game

And I'm not talking about studios like Rockstar Games who have developed only 1 game in 8 years

The fact that the PS4 is easier to develop doesn't mean anything. PoDi aren't ridiculous.

 

[Samus]

The facts ?

Naughty Dog PS3 : 4 games and 1 addon ; PS4 : 2 games and 1 addon
Santa Monica PS3 : 2 games ; PS4 : 1 game
Insomniac Games PS3 : 10 games ; PS4 : 2 games
Guerilla Games : PS3 : 2 games ; PS4 : 2 games
Media Molecule : PS3 : 2 games ; PS4 : 1 game

And I'm not talking about studios like Rockstar Games who have developed only 1 game in 8 years

The fact that the PS4 is easier to develop doesn't mean anything. PoDi aren't ridiculous.

Thanks for confirming that most other studios did put out more than one game, exactly what I said. Not all.

Also, thanks for literally agreeing with the whole point I've been making. PS4 being easier to develop didn't mean anything, PS5 being the same architecture MAY not mean anything. Glad we agree.

 

[Zlork]

Thanks for confirming that most other studios did put out more than one game, exactly what I said. Not all.

Also, thanks for literally agreeing with the whole point I've been making. PS4 being easier to develop didn't mean anything, PS5 being the same architecture MAY not mean anything. Glad we agree.

2 games, no more. Compared to PS3, numbers are divided by 2 or even 3 for some studios.

Exactly like PoDi. The difference is that PoDi has continued to follow their game with updates. Which is not the case for most other studios.
So no, you're not right. PoDi is OK for development time.

The fact that the PS5 has the same architecture will make things easier. There will be less adaptation. This is why PoDi can, like other studios, use the same engine without starting from scratch.

 

[Samus]

2 games, no more. Compared to PS3, numbers are divided by 2 or even 3 for some studios.

2 is more than 1, last I checked.

Exactly like PoDi. The difference is that PoDi has continued to follow their game with updates. Which is not the case for most other studios.
So no, you're not right. PoDi is OK for development time.

No, my statement was definitely correct. You're just giving your perceived reasons for why they only made one game. I'm still correct to say that they made one game.

The fact that the PS4 is easier to develop doesn't mean anything

The fact that the PS5 has the same architecture will make things easier.

Seriously?

 

[Zlork]

No, my statement was definitely correct. You're just giving your perceived reasons for why they only made one game. I'm still correct to say that they made one game.

The "why" is important. Very important.

Seriously?

Seriously ? SERIOUSLY ? SE-RIOU-SLY ?



PS4 didn't have the same architecture as PS3. PS5 has the same architecture as PS4 and that changes a lot. If PS5 had a different architecture, we won't see GT7 next year like I and others members explained.

 

[Samus]

The "why" is important. Very important.



Seriously ? SERIOUSLY ? SE-RIOU-SLY ?



PS4 didn't have the same architecture as PS3. PS5 has the same architecture as PS4 and that changes a lot. If PS5 had a different architecture, we won't see GT7 next year like I and others members explained.

Do you even know what point you're arguing at this point? Because like I said, you have already agreed with what I said, that the hardware being easier doesn't guarantee anything. There can always be other reasons for things to take longer, as PS4 showed. That's literally all I ever said to start with, yet it continues to get dragged out because you think I've slighted PD and you must defend their honour.

Relax. Nobody knows what GT7 will be yet or when it will come. Not me, not you. We're all just discussing possibilities and ideas, there is no need to get defensive all the time.

 

[Zlork]

Do you even know what point you're arguing at this point? Because like I said, you have already agreed with what I said, that the hardware being easier doesn't guarantee anything. There can always be other reasons for things to take longer, as PS4 showed. That's literally all I ever said to start with, yet it continues to get dragged out because you think I've slighted PD and you must defend their honour.

Relax. Nobody knows what GT7 will be yet or when it will come. Not me, not you. We're all just discussing possibilities and ideas, there is no need to get defensive all the time.

It bothered me that you have only compared numbers. The fact that other studios have released more than one game, means that PoDi is slow.

But it's not.

All studios have released fewer games than PS3 era. And yes, that's where I agree with you : that the fact that it's easier to develop doesn't mean much.

On the other hand, developing on other console with the same architecture make it easier. Using same engine is very important because creating an new engine is very time-consuming, as many studios have proven.

Why Guerilla Games, PoDi or Santa Monica can already release (hopefully) their game next year? Because they use the same base. If the PS5 didn't have the same architecture, these games wouldn't be released before 2022, minimum.

 

[TrevorPhilips]

By people referring to x86 as easier, were talking for an "engineer" who interfaces with the machine to get the games engine up and running upon the hardware, not the devs who write the game code or the artists who create the assets. Besides being given a technical document by the engineers setting out guidelines of budgets and do's and don'ts etc, their job is pretty much the same on any platform.

Take the Unreal Engine 4 for example. If you create a game within that engine, you can literally publish your game on PC, Mac, Android, IOS, Playstation, XBox, Nintendo etc. Why? Because the engineers have coded the engine to work on those platforms. Now if I crack open UE4 and start coding my own game through C++ or Blueprints etc, I'm basically creating a game for all those platforms in one go. As long as I keep to the set budgets for the platforms I wanna publish on, I'm good, doesn't matter what the hardware or architecture.

PS3 "time to triangle" was on average 6-12 months PS4 was 1-2 months. That means on average developers had, say, 5-10 months head start when it came to creating their game. That is the reason why PS4 is "easier" to develop for.

So why is dev time longer on PS4 compared to PS3? Quite simply scope. More complex games means more lines of code no matter the game. Which inevitably means more bugs to squash. Then depending on that game, more animations, more dialogue, more 3d models, more textures, more sounds etc. All at a more complex or higher fidelity than the last generation. This means more time and more people either in house or outsourced. There's a lot more to it than just this but I'm sure you get the gist. Basically, bigger game = more time.

 

[ImaRobot]

@Samus You are still tripping up on the same hurdle regarding the "easier" PS4. By people referring to x86 as easier, were talking for an "engineer" who interfaces with the machine to get the games engine up and running upon the hardware, not the devs who write the game code or the artists who create the assets. Besides being given a technical document by the engineers setting out guidelines of budgets and do's and don'ts etc, their job is pretty much the same on any platform.

Take the Unreal Engine 4 for example. If you create a game within that engine, you can literally publish your game on PC, Mac, Android, IOS, Playstation, XBox, Nintendo etc. Why? Because the engineers have coded the engine to work on those platforms. Now if I crack open UE4 and start coding my own game through C++ or Blueprints etc, I'm basically creating a game for all those platforms in one go. As long as I keep to the set budgets for the platforms I wanna publish on, I'm good, doesn't matter what the hardware or architecture.

PS3 "time to triangle" was on average 6-12 months PS4 was 1-2 months. That means on average developers had, say, 5-10 months head start when it came to creating their game. That is the reason why PS4 is "easier" to develop for.

So why is dev time longer on PS4 compared to PS3? Quite simply scope. More complex games means more lines of code no matter the game. Which inevitably means more bugs to squash. Then depending on that game, more animations, more dialogue, more 3d models, more textures, more sounds etc. All at a more complex or higher fidelity than the last generation. This means more time and more people either in house or outsourced. There's a lot more to it than just this but I'm sure you get the gist. Basically, bigger game = more time.

Reading this from outside the discussion, I don't even think you guys are even outright disagreeing with each other.

 

[TrevorPhilips]

Reading this from outside the discussion, I don't even think you guys are even outright disagreeing with each other.

Edit: Yeah I re-read after food, I think you're right, edited. 👍