Gran Turismo 7 takes center stage in an all-new State of Play, arriving Wednesday at 2pm Pacific:

[Scaff]

Excuse me for only commenting on the series I’m familiar with. That said, I never disagreed that time trials are racing, but simply that there’s more to racing and that GT fails to capture most of it beyond time trials.

No problem.

I know there are such people, but the AI’s pace is only part of the problem. Half the concern is also the strange format. Take the Premium Sports Lounge event at Monza in GT Sport for example. You can enter with a stock Ferrari 458 Italia, and within 6-8 laps it’s possible to catch up to cars like Bugatti Veyron or LaFerrari, not to mention win on this high speed circuit. That’s both terrible AI pace and the questionable “racing” format in a nutshell. At least I get a convincing driving experience out of it every time, with emphasis on driving. Hopefully GT7 will redefine that experience somewhat.

I agree that the manner in which GT does it is poor, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still racing.

Is it racing if you can't loose is my question ? Or if you can't win ?

Not actually relevant to the discussion at hand.

How you are winning a time trial or a circle challenge ? Is HPDE racing ?

You win a time trial by setting the fastest time (I really am amazed I've had to actually type that out), and yes HPDE can contain competitive events that would be classed as racing, I've both taken part in and organised a few over the years.

That's my question sure you can get whatever Cambridge definition you like but driving against an AI that is not very fast nor very good is hard to define as racing for me is more like a Sunday drive.

It's still racing, missmataked ability might make it unfair, but that's something quite different.

And I'm sure you can progress without winning races as I said in GTS I only won 15 races but still have 338 cars so in terms of progressing a collection it can be done.

So, to be claer, to progress you took part in races?

Oh and a single piece of anecdotal evidence doesn't constitute robust data.

However I still don't understand the complain about the AI or chase the rabbit racing sure it's annoying but there are people who enjoy doing that obviously considering the backlash in the forum about it. Also to be fair Polyphony announced partnership with Sony AI so hopefully this will eventually make the AI better. My point is that in GTS driving against the AI was introduced only because a lot of people complained that an online game (which was advertised as an online game) didn't have Single Player. So Polyphony caved and give us single player game.

Utterly and completely untrue. GTS was never just an online title, it had, from day one off-line single player activities and events that were heavily based around racing. It was expanded when people complained it was too light, but it was never completely absent.

Now people complain that the AI is terrible on a game that is not out yet based on 30 minutes of promotional videos that could and are very directed to show what they are wanting to show.

No, complaints have existed about the AI in GT as a series for over a decade. The evidence is right here at GT Planet, go back and take a look.

I do think the game will be great and I do consider GTS a racing game though for anyone watching actual GT racing Gr. 3 and Gr. 4 are very confusing animals because of cars like the Megan and all the FF cars in this classes in GT Racing this cars are in a class on there own called TCR.

Who says PD are replicating GT4 and GT3 racing within GTS and GT7?

In regard to TCR, yes that does only allow FWD cars, but that's far from the only TC sereis, and the worlds biggest (BTCC) allows both FWD and RWD.

So even the classing system that GT is trying to replicate is not followed as it should in this game. With that in mind I think I will enjoy GT7 a lot whatever the AI is doing. If it's slow I would be able to use the DualSense to play against it and have fun. If it's fast I will use my sim rig and if they don't mess up the online mode I will have a lot of fun there as well.

Which has nothing to do with it being a racing game.

NASCAR Ignition doesn't follow the rule of NASCAR, which is even more absurd, and is a terrible, terrible game as well. It's still a racing game.

 

[O604]

I wonder if they have this kind of discussion in the Garfield Kart threads? "It doesn't matter if you're a cat or a dog, it's racing!"

 

[Scaff]

I actually do Time Attack for fun on the weekends and drive real cars on real race tracks even win trophies from time to time but it's not real racing at least not the kind of racing you see on TV.

Good for you.

So there is a big difference between Sunday Cup racing and let's say 24 hours of Le Mans.

Indeed, but what they have in common is that they are both still racing.

And drivers license tests are not exactly racing.

Which ones? As real world licence tests for public road driving would not be (and no one but you has attempted to claim otherwise), real world track racing licences have competitive sections to them that are racing, and licenmce tests in video games are against set times, so would be racing.

However in terms of Licensing in GT where they try to represent FIA License it's normal to have some nominal criteria's in real life to get SuperLicense you need to win a few Championships however in GT is enough to take a turn right.

Citation for them trying to represent FIA licences?

What I don't get is Scuff point that it's a racing game so the AI should be good I guess he newer driven PCars 2

It's Scaff and you are so wrong I actually feel a bit embarrassed for you.

which actually have one of the most sophisticated AI's I have ever seen in a racing game and even there on some of the difficulties the AI is slow enough that I can win by 30 seconds in a 5 laps race.

It has a scale for AI that goes from 1 to over 100 for skill and aggression. If you set it to the bottom end then of course most people will be able to win. That literally demonstrates nothing.

 

[bnight]

Good for you.


Indeed, but what they have in common is that they are both still racing.


Which ones? As real world licence tests for public road driving would not be (and no one but you has attempted to claim otherwise), real world track racing licences have competitive sections to them that are racing, and licenmce tests in video games are against set times, so would be racing.


Citation for them trying to represent FIA licences?


It's Scaff and you are so wrong I actually feel a bit embarrassed for you.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/search/3215102/

It has a scale for AI that goes from 1 to over 100 for skill and aggression. If you set it to the bottom end then of course most people will be able to win. That literally demonstrates nothing.

So was that race against the AI in PCars 2. You actually started the whole is racing against AI a racing thing. My point is that sure GTS AI is pointless and slow and chase the rabbit which I can imagine we are going to do some in GT7 as well overall any racing if you are not first is kind of chasing the rabbit. In my case is a heavy modified M2 Competition that I'm chasing and I can say it's an 8 seconds a lap faster rabbit but it's still chasing the rabbit type of event. So complaining that GT AI is chasing the rabbit is strange to me. Overall I do agree is a racing game or at least is pretending to be racing game however the title never said is a racing game it say it's Gran Turismo so I'm guessing there are a lot of Gran Tourists in GT is my point. Just because someone doesn't like chasing the rabbit or the AI it doesn't mean there is not more to do in the game.

 

[MagpieRacer]

So was that race against the AI in PCars 2. You actually started the whole is racing against AI a racing thing. My point is that sure GTS AI is pointless and slow and chase the rabbit which I can imagine we are going to do some in GT7 as well overall any racing if you are not first is kind of chasing the rabbit. In my case is a heavy modified M2 Competition that I'm chasing and I can say it's an 8 seconds a lap faster rabbit but it's still chasing the rabbit type of event. So complaining that GT AI is chasing the rabbit is strange to me. Overall I do agree is a racing game or at least is pretending to be racing game however the title never said is a racing game it say it's Gran Turismo so I'm guessing there are a lot of Gran Tourists in GT is my point. Just because someone doesn't like chasing the rabbit or the AI it doesn't mean there is not more to do in the game.

It's a racing game.

 

[Scaff]

So was that race against the AI in PCars 2.

Yes

You actually started the whole is racing against AI a racing thing.

No I didn't

My point is that sure GTS AI is pointless and slow and chase the rabbit which I can imagine we are going to do some in GT7 as well overall any racing if you are not first is kind of chasing the rabbit.

Chase the rabbit events are still racing, I've not said otherwise. What I (and others) have said is that it has no real world parallels and seems to have been introduced as a way of hiding AI issues.

In my case is a heavy modified M2 Competition that I'm chasing and I can say it's an 8 seconds a lap faster rabbit but it's still chasing the rabbit type of event. So complaining that GT AI is chasing the rabbit is strange to me.

It's really not and it's been explained countless times.

Overall I do agree is a racing game or at least is pretending to be racing game however the title never said is a racing game it say it's Gran Turismo so I'm guessing there are a lot of Gran Tourists in GT is my point.

Oh dear.

It's from the Italian for Grand Tourer, and is where we get the GT in GT5, GT4, GT3, GT2, GT1, and GTE racing from.

A Name that Enzo Ferrari states was born out of racing, specifically the Mille Miglia

"In my opinion, the Mille Miglia was an epoch-making event, which told a wonderful story. The Mille Miglia created our cars and the Italian car industry. The Mille Miglia permitted the birth of GT, or grand touring cars, which are now sold all over the world. The Mille Miglia proved that by racing over open roads for 1,000 miles, there were great technical lessons to be learned by the petrol and oil companies and by brake, clutch, transmission, electrical and lighting component manufacturers, fully justifying the old adage that motor racing improves the breed."

Grand tourer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just because someone doesn't like chasing the rabbit or the AI it doesn't mean there is not more to do in the game.

Once again, no-one has said otherwise.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I'm sure they'll change the penalty system about 8 times during its lifetime just like GTS.

But anyway Kaz said online is basically the same as GTS. There are no big changes or additions.

He said the same thing about career mode though and it looks like we are stuck selecting events through the track menu

 

[outofspace]

I was thinking, what is the reason they added the good old touring car versions from gt6 like the civic ek9 and Silvia s15? (New swift also) i mean they aren't roadcars so could they be eligible to race along the gr.4 cars like we saw in the video with the supra and skyline gt500 racing with gr.3s??

 

[bnight]

Yes


No I didn't


Chase the rabbit events are still racing, I've not said otherwise. What I (and others) have said is that it has no real world parallels and seems to have been introduced as a way of hiding AI issues.


It's really not and it's been explained countless times.


Oh dear.

It's from the Italian for Grand Tourer, and is where we get the GT in GT5, GT4, GT3, GT2, GT1, and GTE racing from.

A Name that Enzo Ferrari states was born out of racing, specifically the Mille Miglia

"In my opinion, the Mille Miglia was an epoch-making event, which told a wonderful story. The Mille Miglia created our cars and the Italian car industry. The Mille Miglia permitted the birth of GT, or grand touring cars, which are now sold all over the world. The Mille Miglia proved that by racing over open roads for 1,000 miles, there were great technical lessons to be learned by the petrol and oil companies and by brake, clutch, transmission, electrical and lighting component manufacturers, fully justifying the old adage that motor racing improves the breed."

Grand tourer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Once again, no-one has said otherwise.

I know what Grand Tourer is I own one. But it's not a racing car it's a tourist car something to cruise that Autobahn or whatever fast. Ether way GT racing is totally different story than Mille Miglia or Cost-to-Cost racing sure at the end it cover driving for 24 hours but it's a lot more than that. Regarding AI the original GT game had standing starts and the races were not boring I think the chase the rabbit events were added in like GT4/GT5 and not the original. And to be fair they do have a real analog in racing. As the 24 hours of le mans start with a flying start as is most modern GT racing events because fields are so big now. So if you start at the end of the field you will be chasing that Rabbit for the 24 hours and it does happen from time to time as well.

 

[Samus]

As the 24 hours of le mans start with a flying start as is most modern GT racing events because fields are so big now. So if you start at the end of the field you will be chasing that Rabbit for the 24 hours and it does happen from time to time as well.

You've never actually watched a Le Mans 24 Hour event, have you?

 

[RedRockValley]

As the 24 hours of le mans start with a flying start as is most modern GT racing events because fields are so big now. So if you start at the end of the field you will be chasing that Rabbit for the 24 hours and it does happen from time to time as well.

Here's the thing... GT doesn't have huge fields of AI opponents and races are usually pretty short (5 laps or so) where a grid start would make much more sense.

 

[Nebuc72]

I'm going to have to drop out of university at this rate. The justifications for GT not being a racing game have damaged my brain so much that I don't think I'm smart enough to continue my degree.

 

[NICKname]

I'm going to have to drop out of university at this rate. The justifications for GT not being a racing game have damaged my brain so much that I don't think I'm smart enough to continue my degree.

Are you really in university to get a degree, or are you merely playing a grade collection simulator? 🤔

 

[Famine]

I'm going to have to drop out of university at this rate. The justifications for GT not being a racing game have damaged my brain so much that I don't think I'm smart enough to continue my degree.

We've only had the "racing" part. Wait until we get to the part where it's not a game (and we do have a frequent commenter who insists this is the case).

That too will include the argument that it says "the real driving simulator" on the box.

 

[bnight]

You've never actually watched a Le Mans 24 Hour event, have you?

I do watch all GT3 events including 24 Hours of Daytona, 24 Hours of Spa, Nurburgring etc.
Here is the Highlights and the start:



It is a flying start contrary to popular believe and what Ford vs Ferrari movie is trying to sell you.

 

[Scaff]

I know what Grand Tourer is I own one.

Which one

But it's not a racing car it's a tourist car something to cruise that Autobahn or whatever fast. Ether way GT racing is totally different story than Mille Miglia or Cost-to-Cost racing sure at the end it cover driving for 24 hours but it's a lot more than that. Regarding AI the original GT game had standing starts and the races were not boring I think the chase the rabbit events were added in like GT4/GT5 and not the original.

So I just need to check with you here, but you're saying Enzo Ferrari is wrong?

And to be fair they do have a real analog in racing. As the 24 hours of le mans start with a flying start as is most modern GT racing events because fields are so big now. So if you start at the end of the field you will be chasing that Rabbit for the 24 hours and it does happen from time to time as well.

Nope, the rolling starts used in the chase the rabbit events in GT are not the same as the rolling starts used in GT and Endurance racing.

I do watch all GT3 events including 24 Hours of Daytona, 24 Hours of Spa, Nurburgring etc.

Then you will have no problem explaining how they differ to the once in GT's chase the rabbit events.

It is a flying start contrary to popular believe and what Ford vs Ferrari movie is trying to sell you.

Learn some motor racing history



The traditional Le Mans running start was used until 1970 (1969 was the last year it was used), as such the start as shown in the film is correct.

1969 24 Hours of Le Mans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Samus]

I do watch all GT3 events including 24 Hours of Daytona, 24 Hours of Spa, Nurburgring etc.
Here is the Highlights and the start:



It is a flying start contrary to popular believe and what Ford vs Ferrari movie is trying to sell you.

No that part is true, it was the part trying to equate it to a Gran Turismo rolling start and catch the rabbit format. Firstly the cars in a real rolling start are bumper to bumper and usually double file. Secondly there is no catch the rabbit format because the cars are all in different classes. GTE cars are not going to catch the LMP1 rabbit are they? No, they're racing in their own class, and they all start together.

In Gran Turismo the rolling starts have huge gaps between each car so when you cross the start line the lead car is usually into turn one or two, depending on the track.

They're not even remotely similar.

Oh and Ford vs Ferrari is set in the 60s when they did start by running across the track to get in their cars. It was ditched for safety reasons.

 

[bnight]

Here's the thing... GT doesn't have huge fields of AI opponents and races are usually pretty short (5 laps or so) where a grid start would make much more sense.

I do agree with that don't get me wrong. My argument is that flying starts are very common in racing even if it's 1 hour or 30 minutes sprint races. Ether way I also don't like the AI in GT and I think it will be same experience but my argument is that if you want competition you can go to online modes. And you can call it racing or whatever. ACC is much more a GT Racing simulator than GT7 will ever be. With that in mind I also think there is a lot more to enjoy in GT7 like tuning cars and buying UCD cars or Scapes or Liveries than racing. And I'm really excited for that game. And for the racing that it will offer mostly online.

 

[Famine]

Oh and Ford vs Ferrari is set in the 60s when they did start by running across the track to get in their cars.

Literally known as a "Le Mans start". It's also the reason Porsches have the ignition on the left of the steering wheel.

 

[Scaff]

In Gran Turismo the rolling starts have huge gaps between each car so when you cross the start line the lead car is usually into turn one or two, depending on the track.

Don't forget you also don't get to start until you cross the Start/Finish line, as opposed to all cars starting at the same time when the race steward gives the green flag/light.

 

[Samus]

Here is the Gran Turismo Sport equivalent of the LM24. See if you can spot the very slight difference from the real world start.



It's subtle but if you look really closely you'll notice that when you start the race instead of all the cars being packed together on the start straight the lead car is already heading down the ruddy Mulsanne, about 40 seconds ahead.

 

[bnight]

Which one

I own a 2017 Mustang GT and I do time attack events with it. Plan to take it to the Nurburgring this season.

So I just need to check with you here, but you're saying Enzo Ferrari is wrong?

I don't say it's wrong I say we can argue around the GT definition based on whatever is a racing class or a car name.

Nope, the rolling starts used in the chase the rabbit events in GT are not the same as the rolling starts used in GT and Endurance racing.

So we just need to find an event where cars start in a line instead of two lines ? P.S. last time I did rolling start in GTS was in two lines. Not know the ones against the AI I didn't run those since 2 years ago when they introduced it. And in real Endurance you can have huge gaps between 1st and 60th in the same class for example 24 hours of Nurburgring where you have tons of GT3 cars.

Then you will have no problem explaining how they differ to the once in GT's chase the rabbit events.


Learn some motor racing history



The traditional Le Mans running start was used until 1970 (1969 was the last year it was used), as such the start as shown in the film is correct.

1969 24 Hours of Le Mans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I do know motor racing history enough to know the running starts I watch F1 racing since I was 6yo and follow all forms of racing possible as it's a passion for me.

Here is the Gran Turismo Sport equivalent of the LM24. See if you can spot the very slight difference from the real world start.


It's subtle but if you look really closely you'll notice that when you start the race instead of all the cars being packed together on the start straight the lead car is already heading down the ruddy Mulsanne, about 40 seconds ahead.

Here is the latest N24 race highlights notice how on the start some cars didn't even crossed the final corner ?

 

[Samus]

And in real Endurance you can have huge gaps between 1st and 60th in the same class for example 24 hours of Nurburgring where you have tons of GT3 cars.

Well yes but that's a matter of the laws of physics, time and space and the fact you can't physically fit 60 cars in the space of 20. They still sit as close to each other as physically possible, and they all start racing when the lights go green.

Gran Turismo does not have 60 car grids, it has 20 car grids at most with huge gaps between each car.

But sure, keep moving the goalposts.

 

[Scaff]

I own a 2017 Mustang GT and I do time attack events with it. Plan to take it to the Nurburgring this season.

Which is not a Grand Tourer, it's a Muscle Car, well technically a Pony Car.

Just because someone in marketing, back in the past, made a GT variant doesn't make it a Grand Tourer.

I don't say it's wrong I say we can argue around the GT definition based on whatever is a racing class or a car name.

Why can't it mean both?

So we just need to find an event where cars start in a line instead of two lines ? P.S. last time I did rolling start in GTS was in two lines. Not know the ones against the AI I didn't run those since 2 years ago when they introduced it. And in real Endurance you can have huge gaps between 1st and 60th in the same class for example 24 hours of Nurburgring where you have tons of GT3 cars.

Once again, it reality it's a double stack and all the cars either start at the same time, or these start at the same time as the rest of the class (pretty much only in the case of the VLN events at the 'ring)

I do know motor racing history enough to know the running starts

Then why did you claim the film got it wrong, when it got it 100% correct?

I watch F1 racing since I was 6yo and follow all forms of racing possible as it's a passion for me.

Not well enough it seems.

 

[Islaygaz]

We've only had the "racing" part. Wait until we get to the part where it's not a game (and we do have a frequent commenter who insists this is the case).

That too will include the argument that it says "the real driving simulator" on the box.

What about the “real” part???

 

[Scaff]

Here is the latest N24 race highlights notice how on the start some cars didn't even crossed the final corner ?

Oh look. multi row stacks and they start at the same time, so not like GTS at all.

 

[Samus]

This image contains 26 cars all bumper to bumper across the first corner.

In Gran Turismo 20 cars were separated by over 40 seconds with 4-5 second gaps between each car.

 

[Nielsen]

I'm going to have to drop out of university at this rate. The justifications for GT not being a racing game have damaged my brain so much that I don't think I'm smart enough to continue my degree.

I may have taken brain damage too, but mainly because people insist it’s a racing game while at the same time recognizing that GT does a very bad job at being a racing game. I strongly feel this should be the point at which one needs to accept another definition, or at least a looser definition, especially when “driving” has been written on the front cover for roughly 25 years. However, I still plan on finishing my master’s degree.

 

[bnight]

Which is not a Grand Tourer, it's a Muscle Car, well technically a Pony Car.

Does it say GT ? Same logic that you applied for the name of the game. So technically GT can mean so many things.

Just because someone in marketing, back in the past, made a GT variant doesn't make it a Grand Tourer.


Why can't it mean both?


Once again, it reality it's a double stack and all the cars either start at the same time, or these start at the same time as the rest of the class (pretty much only in the case of the VLN events at the 'ring)

But still if you are last in that stacked field you will be 10-15 seconds off the lead car at the start of the race if you want to win that event you need to make up that time even if they are stacked. So Chase the rabbit (Lead Car).

Then why did you claim the film got it wrong, when it got it 100% correct?

Because they changed it just like it's changed in GT (to more accurately represent current start type). Ether way the goal of GT is to represent the move from Sunday Cup type racing to Prototypes. Somewhere in the past 25 years this goal changed to now represent collecting cars.

Not well enough it seems.

It is well enough but it seams you are so stuck to argue for the sake of argument that I don't want to accept if someone has different opinion than you.

 

[NotThePrez]

Literally known as a "Le Mans start". It's also the reason Porsches have the ignition on the left of the steering wheel.