- 87,871
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Not GT7 yet, but it is work. Technically anything I do that gives me information about the things I write about qualifies as "research".
Gran Turismo 7 takes center stage in an all-new State of Play, arriving Wednesday at 2pm Pacific:
- Thread starter GlamFM
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- Australia
- 10,004
- Denmark
- 30,028
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
You have a very strange definition of racing.
Racing against the clock is still racing, racing agianst AI is racing, racing against other people online is still... you guessed it, racing.
Let me help you with the defintion of "racing" a little, the Cambridge dictionary defines it as the action of competing in a competition to see who will come first. That pretty concisely covers all of the above.
I'm not sure why there's even a debate here, but keep hitting your head on that brick wall if it brings you pleasure.
- 10,004
- Denmark
Racing requires strategy, situational awareness and endurance. It’s a skill that goes much deeper than running a time trial. The latter only needs you to control the car with understanding for power management and handling characteristic of the car. You can call it racing against a clock, but it’s certainly not the kind of racing that gets you through the average IMSA or WEC event.
The problem with Gran Turismo (so far) is that you don’t need racecraft to win an event. Just drive the car flawlessly at a decent pace, and chances of catching the rabbit are almost guaranteed. This is why some people struggle to see GT as a racing game no matter how much it resembles one.
MagpieRacer
Premium
- 17,547
- Wymondham, Norfolk
- Seagull_Racer
"In sport, racing is a competition of speed, against an objective criterion, usually a clock or to a specific point. The competitors in a race try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time. Typically this involves traversing some distance, but it can be any other task involving speed to reach a specific goal."
It's a racing game. There's no argument here.
- 28,353
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
The mental gymnastics regarding this are on a level above the GT5 Drift and Drag subforums.
Rally exists. Pikes Peak Hillclimb exists. Race qualifying for literally every known event exists.
I've learned so much in this thread. Now I've learned that one's own inability to race without crashing into any and everything or without racecraft dictates whether or not something is a racing game. In that case, no racing game is a racing game; they're all bastardized impostors that just have you driving cars around a track (whether real or otherwise) for absolutely no reason whatsoever. First place? What's that? We're not racing, get out of my face with that.
GTP WRS? Utterly pointless. No one is racing the other person, even when they're all on the same track. At the same time. Vying for position. And the fastest lap times. Pointless.
Rally exists. Pikes Peak Hillclimb exists. Race qualifying for literally every known event exists.
I've learned so much in this thread. Now I've learned that one's own inability to race without crashing into any and everything or without racecraft dictates whether or not something is a racing game. In that case, no racing game is a racing game; they're all bastardized impostors that just have you driving cars around a track (whether real or otherwise) for absolutely no reason whatsoever. First place? What's that? We're not racing, get out of my face with that.
GTP WRS? Utterly pointless. No one is racing the other person, even when they're all on the same track. At the same time. Vying for position. And the fastest lap times. Pointless.
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- 10,004
- Denmark
WRC is not simply a time trial. It’s a multi-stage event where tire strategies etc. have a great deal of impact on the outcome.
I think we never disagreed on that, but the most advanced forms of racing are not very well represented in Gran Turismo. On the other hand, you can win an event by going on a spirited Sunday cruise. That’s not racing as in racecraft, but it’s definitely driving.
Scaff
Moderator
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- ScaffUK
It's still a series of time trials, and I note that you ignored all of the other forms of time trail based racing. I try and head to a few Hill Climb events every year, I'm sure the competitors would love to be informed that they are not actually racing!
Badly implemented racing is still racing, and as skill levels differ you will still find those that find GT's AI quick.
The respective difference in skill levels of participants doesn't stop a race from being a race, and as such it's still racing.
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- 10,004
- Denmark
Excuse me for only commenting on the series I’m familiar with. That said, I never disagreed that time trials are racing, but simply that there’s more to racing and that GT fails to capture most of it beyond time trials.
I know there are such people, but the AI’s pace is only part of the problem. Half the concern is also the strange format. Take the Premium Sports Lounge event at Monza in GT Sport for example. You can enter with a stock Ferrari 458 Italia, and within 6-8 laps it’s possible to catch up to cars like Bugatti Veyron or LaFerrari, not to mention win on this high speed circuit. That’s both terrible AI pace and the questionable “racing” format in a nutshell. At least I get a convincing driving experience out of it every time, with emphasis on driving. Hopefully GT7 will redefine that experience somewhat.
- 16,668
- Melbourne
- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
"It's not a racing game, it's a competition game"
There, is that good enough for everyone? I think we can all agree on this AT THE VERY LEAST.
There, is that good enough for everyone? I think we can all agree on this AT THE VERY LEAST.
Is it racing if you can't loose is my question ? Or if you can't win ? How you are winning a time trial or a circle challenge ? Is HPDE racing ? That's my question sure you can get whatever Cambridge definition you like but driving against an AI that is not very fast nor very good is hard to define as racing for me is more like a Sunday drive. And I'm sure you can progress without winning races as I said in GTS I only won 15 races but still have 338 cars so in terms of progressing a collection it can be done. However I still don't understand the complain about the AI or chase the rabbit racing sure it's annoying but there are people who enjoy doing that obviously considering the backlash in the forum about it. Also to be fair Polyphony announced partnership with Sony AI so hopefully this will eventually make the AI better. My point is that in GTS driving against the AI was introduced only because a lot of people complained that an online game (which was advertised as an online game) didn't have Single Player. So Polyphony caved and give us single player game. Now people complain that the AI is terrible on a game that is not out yet based on 30 minutes of promotional videos that could and are very directed to show what they are wanting to show. I do think the game will be great and I do consider GTS a racing game though for anyone watching actual GT racing Gr. 3 and Gr. 4 are very confusing animals because of cars like the Megan and all the FF cars in this classes in GT Racing this cars are in a class on there own called TCR. So even the classing system that GT is trying to replicate is not followed as it should in this game. With that in mind I think I will enjoy GT7 a lot whatever the AI is doing. If it's slow I would be able to use the DualSense to play against it and have fun. If it's fast I will use my sim rig and if they don't mess up the online mode I will have a lot of fun there as well.
- 327
- Sydney
Some of the responders in this thread must have applied for positions as a village idiot somewhere and are using this thread on their resumes. Ease up fellas, pretty sure the positions are yours.
Usain Bolt could line up for a 100 metre sprint against a chubby 8 year old and it's still racing. The closeness of the contest is irrelevant.
I'm in the camp that GT was never intended as a hardcore sim, but to deny it's a racing game is kinda special. You can do all kinds of other activities, but at the core of it there is racing.
Usain Bolt could line up for a 100 metre sprint against a chubby 8 year old and it's still racing. The closeness of the contest is irrelevant.
I'm in the camp that GT was never intended as a hardcore sim, but to deny it's a racing game is kinda special. You can do all kinds of other activities, but at the core of it there is racing.
I actually do Time Attack for fun on the weekends and drive real cars on real race tracks even win trophies from time to time but it's not real racing at least not the kind of racing you see on TV. So there is a big difference between Sunday Cup racing and let's say 24 hours of Le Mans. And drivers license tests are not exactly racing. However in terms of Licensing in GT where they try to represent FIA License it's normal to have some nominal criteria's in real life to get SuperLicense you need to win a few Championships however in GT is enough to take a turn right. What I don't get is Scuff point that it's a racing game so the AI should be good I guess he newer driven PCars 2 which actually have one of the most sophisticated AI's I have ever seen in a racing game and even there on some of the difficulties the AI is slow enough that I can win by 30 seconds in a 5 laps race.
MagpieRacer
Premium
- 17,547
- Wymondham, Norfolk
- Seagull_Racer
No because you're not racing against the clock or an opponent in a driving test. This is by far the weirdest argument I've seen against racing. Astounding.
I also cannot believe this is an argument that is even still going on. By every definition it's a racing game, there's no comeback, no argument, no tiny detail that can prove otherwise. It is a racing game.
Wait hold up, so you supposedly race in real life but it isn't real racing because it's not Le Mans 24 hours? Even though it's on a RACE track? You so realise any argument you think you've had is just crumbling every time you post. And there was only a dust crumb to start with.
Racing is racing whether it's a lawnmower time trial on a plowed field or the Monaco Grand Prix. The fact you even do racing and don't even think is racing is baffling. What you doing? Just driving round? And at the end someone gives you a trophy for doing good drivings?
- 2,469
- Scotland
- islaygaz
Racing for me is getting from point A to point B in the fastest time possible. This can be point to point like a rally or a set number of laps round a circuit. It doesn’t matter where the competitors are in relation to you.
Gran Turismo is labelled as ‘The Real Driving Simulator’ and racing is just a sub-classification of driving, however given the majority of what you do in the GT series is circuit racing (on and off road!) it has to be classed as a racing game with other available driving activities.
Gran Turismo is labelled as ‘The Real Driving Simulator’ and racing is just a sub-classification of driving, however given the majority of what you do in the GT series is circuit racing (on and off road!) it has to be classed as a racing game with other available driving activities.
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