Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

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@Scaff
I never wanted to stop conversations. In my opinion you bringing up the single player campaign (or loss of it) again was unnecessary at that discussion of eSport/online.

The beta is gone and it was just an experimental torso but a good one.
I focus on the possibilities GTS has and not on the things the beta didn't have.
For people that would like to have easy access to online racing the GTS daily races are likely to be the path. The schedule of those are probably going to be much broader than in the beta. Good for family men like me. The eSport schedule we have to wait and see.
And I think single player section can never replace the excitement of online, for those that are familiar with it of course.
 
Agreed, but each copy sold is another chance for someone to get involved. The more copies, the better.
Certainly, but its not an absolute.

Zero, and a very good point. However, they're at least a fairly big deal in real world motorsports. This has to help, surely?
The honest answer is that we don't know, and while its useful in terms of the link to real world Motorsport, however with a lack of real world FIA race series that's limited to a name and little more.

Agreed, good point again, but for the big events, full commentary will be amazing!
It will, but currently the competition has it for far more than just the big events; and are now providing a set of tools to improve on what they already have. Again we have seen nothing from GTS in this regard yet.

Again, true. We can only wait and see!
Indeed, we can only hope it doesn't go missing in action from launch.

This is where you're wide of the mark, I think. A realistic, beautiful game is a huge, huge draw for an esports audience. Witness the underwhelming reception that iRacing (?) got when it was used for that Vegas event. This is, in my opinion, really important for a spectator sport.
That event had far, far bigger issues that how it looked.

The closer it can look to real-world motorsports, the more viable as an e-sport it will be.
That goes far beyond graphical fidelity, particularity when being streamed (I can handle a 1080p stream, not everyone can) can result in that edge being taken away. Dynamic time of day and weather are a very real part of real-world motorsport, yet that part of the 'look' will be missing.

The standard of racing and how it is enforced and marshalled also affect how well a title 'looks' like real-world motorsport, that's of a known quantity for some of the competition, but not for GTS and based on what was considered an acceptable standard at the Copper Box raises concerns for me.

You're right, it's not black and white, just disagreeing with your appraisal, is all. And we can only guess, both of us.
That was the only point I was making. However we can make a far more educated guess about one than the other.

@Scaff
I never wanted to stop conversations. In my opinion you bringing up the single player campaign (or loss of it) again was unnecessary at that discussion of eSport/online.
Why? If someone buys GTS (or any other title for that matter) and they can't get online, don't want to go online or can't make the scheduled event times then what other option do you have?


The beta is gone and it was just an experimental torso but a good one.
I focus on the possibilities GTS has and not on the things the beta didn't have.
I focus on what we have actually experienced or seen, be it in the beta or on gameplay footage.

Not what could be possible.

For people that would like to have easy access to online racing the GTS daily races are likely to be the path.
No easier that just about any titles online access.

The schedule of those are probably going to be much broader than in the beta. Good for family men like me. The eSport schedule we have to wait and see.
I certainly hope they are, as the vast majority of them were useless timing wise for a family man like myself.

And I think single player section can never replace the excitement of online, for those that are familiar with it of course.
No one has ever suggested it as a replacement, but for 2/3rds of PS4 owners without it GTS suddenly becomes very empty.

Its also a key part of the progression of a player to get online, build confidence racing the AI (getting to know tracks and cars) before moving on-line and then maybe going on to esport events.

Removing the majority of the single player in the hope it forces people on-line and then into esport is a very risky move and one that may well alienate the more casual purchasers (which I suspect is still a large part of the GT buyer profile).
 
No one has ever suggested it as a replacement, but for 2/3rds of PS4 owners without it GTS suddenly becomes very empty.

1/3 of total PS4 sales is still a far greater number than the each individual GT title. So the question would become, and i can only answer this from GT5/6. How many bought the game for its single player.

Buying those two titles too learn race craft frim its AI, sorry but even the novices of novice would quickly learn that ain't going to work.

Do you think people play all of the campaign modes in COD,BF1 - no they play what they have to get online - these games have a different learning curve but no less steep.

So in relation to this gamers who play online do not do this:

Its also a key part of the progression of a player to get online, build confidence racing the AI (getting to know tracks and cars) before moving on-line and then maybe going on to esport events.

So in turn forcing gamers online, its not risky its the norm for online gamers, most will buy a game, load up multiplayer and play online. Its even what my kids do, they wont play through a games largely repetitive offline segment, and i would argue that a driving sim is more repetitive than most, before getting on, they just dive straight in.

There must be a stat somewhere how many people completed any GT edition to how many it sold. That has to be a niche percentage right there.
 
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I can't speak for everyone, but this is my experience.

I'd prefer to race against the AI in an offline race when I'm not racing online in a league with people I trust, than in a public lobby.
Why? Because, again in my experience, public lobbies are full of people who have no race craft or etiquette, and the races are almost always just short sprint races with no strategy involved.

I also don't want to just create single offline races that have no sense of progression.
I want to participate in a championship of races in various motorsport disciplines.

There must be others who feel this way?

GTS is not offering me this.
 
I can't speak for everyone, but this is my experience.

I'd prefer to race against the AI in an offline race when I'm not racing online in a league with people I trust, than in a public lobby.
Why? Because, again in my experience, public lobbies are full of people who have no race craft or etiquette, and the races are almost always just short sprint races with no strategy involved.

I also don't want to just create single offline races that have no sense of progression.
I want to participate in a championship of races in various motorsport disciplines.

There must be others who feel this way?

GTS is not offering me this.
Options should allow for the host to choose player level and etiquette. I'll be surprised if those aren't options. With GT6, the best way to keep it competitive is to disable driving aids.
 
Oh look, brief appearance of GT Sport in this Trailer:



"Oh..Dont forget about us" *shoves GTS in the middle of the trailer*

Nothing new tho.
 
Oh look, brief appearance of GT Sport in this Trailer:



"Oh..Dont forget about us" *shoves GTS in the middle of the trailer*

Nothing new tho.


Well, a title with "Sport" literally in the name sorta fits in an ad called "The best place to play sports"
 
1/3 of total PS4 sales is still a far greater number than the each individual GT title. So the question would become, and i can only answer this from GT5/6. How many bought the game for its single player.
I have no idea, but given the trophy percentages for completion of even minor areas it's not a small amount.

Buying those two titles too learn race craft frim its AI, sorry but even the novices of novice would quickly learn that ain't going to work.
You speak for all of them based on what mandate?

How in earth can you be so sure that is the case?

Do you think people play all of the campaign modes in COD,BF1 - no they play what they have to get online - these games have a different learning curve but no less steep.
Yes I do think that, and again the stats back it up. As an example 38% completed each of the single player areas of BF1, and 20% completed BF4. Around 50% gave up on the online before reaching rank 10 in BF1 multiplayer.

So yes people do.

However as I will come onto in a moment, significantly more play FPS online (or at least try it for a while) than racing titles.

So in relation to this gamers who play online do not do this:
Sorry but the numbers don't back that up.

So in turn forcing gamers online, its not risky its the norm for online gamers, most will buy a game, load up multiplayer and play online. Its even what my kids do, they wont play through a games largely repetitive offline segment, and i would argue that a driving sim is more repetitive than most, before getting on, they just dive straight in.

There must be a stat somewhere how many people completed any GT edition to how many it sold. That has to be a niche percentage right there.
Platinum for GT6 was 0.8%.

However less than 50% of GT6 players ever owned more than ten cars, 25% never drive more than 100km and15% never even bought a second car or won a race!

Now looking at a range of other online racing titles the average (for those that record it) is around 15 to 20% try online, with 5% staying for more than 25 races.

What the PS Trophy stats show is that what the vast majority do is buy a racing title and play some of the offline content, around a fifth try online at least once, and a very small percentage stay around for more than 25 to 30 online races.

It would certainly seem that offline is still a very significant area for racing titles, and even those that do try online, very few stay around.
 
Options should allow for the host to choose player level and etiquette. I'll be surprised if those aren't options. With GT6, the best way to keep it competitive is to disable driving aids.
Yes, in addition to using more realistically grippy rubber it was also a way to keep the number of drivers entering your lobby low most of the time.
 
Yes, in addition to using more realistically grippy rubber it was also a way to keep the number of drivers entering your lobby low most of the time.
That's probably because I avoid entering lobbies for competitive racing without there being a classification system. Like the one GTS will finally introduce.
 
Sony's Pre TGS Conference : September, 19th at 16.00 JST

2017-PlayStation-Japan-Press-Conference_08-29-17.jpg
 
T
Currently its run via a separate website and the PSN events tool, so once you are registered you can join the events directly via the PS4. However PC2 will be bringing that into the actual title so you will be able to follow and join the events from within PC2, as well as being able to watch events run live and catch-up on past events.
Wait what? Viewing the event from within the game? Holy crap, GT Sport has already lost if this is the case.
Racing games have been very niche in esports compared to other genres and its mainly due to the none of them being really popular (and racing being not a traditional esports game unlike fighting games).

GTS is the only IP that has this chance. If it does not bring more awareness to racing as an esports than nothing else will....and tbh thats okay. Not everything has to be esports. GT Academy was sufficient up till now.
Yet there's already a decent E-Sports following for racing games. If GT Sport gets the attention it deserves and succeeds, then yes, racing as an E-Sport will gain a significant amount of interest. Tragically, the tools for broadcasting these events don't seem present.

For reason I fear that the FIA's inexperience with E-Sports could be the major downfall of GT Sport. Never have they had to work in a digital environment, so why should Kaz put his trust in them? It seems stupid now that I think about it. Both of these companies are stepping into the unknown here, and that's very VERY risky business if you ask me. I know Kaz wants this to succeed but I fear optimism has got the better of him. We'll see.
 
Wait what? Viewing the event from within the game? Holy crap, GT Sport has already lost if this is the case.

Unless they have been working on something similar...

Both of these companies are stepping into the unknown here, and that's very VERY risky business if you ask me.

Innovation comes bundled with risk I'd say and adapting your business is often required to remain competitive. Not sure however that a hard transition is the better option. Inciting your customers to move forward by limiting legacy features that have build your identity and success may appear to exclusive for some. Kaz still needs to clarify what his 15% quote is all about. Eventually E-Sport isn't as much of a focus than it seems. TGS can't come soon enough...
 
@Scaff where do you find these stats just so I can peruse myself before making myself look foolish :D
They are from PSN trophy rates, just took a look at the PS3 and PS4 games I have played (it's a lot).

It gives you the percentage of players who have obtained a particular trophy, say for completing the first online races, to owning 'x' number of cars.

It's not consistent across titles, but many are similar enough to provide a trend.

Gaming as a whole shows a significant percentage don't 'complete' games (to the end of a story or say the GT end movie), a small percentage are true completionists who have to collect everything.

When it comes to online the percentage who try it is markedly higher for shooters than it is for racing titles, a large percentage drop out of online quickly and again for shooters they have a better retention rate long term than racing titles (which may be because you are often on the winning team, even if you don't get MVP).

Interestingly the F1 series has the highest initial online participation percentage, with rally titles falling way behind.

Overall however Driveclubs asymmetric faceoff mode seemed to be a popular way of linking on and off line together.
 
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They are from PSN trophy rates, just took a look at the PS3 and PS4 games I have played (it's a lot).

Im using something called PSN Profiles, your PSN profile shows up so Im guessing the results are somewhat useful, and that would be a lot of games.
Gaming as a whole shows a significant percentage don't 'complete' games (to the end of a story or say the GT end movie), a small percentage are true completionists who have to collect everything.
This is to be expected, too many variables to prevent gamers from completing games.
When it comes to online the percentage who try it is markedly higher for shooters than it is for racing titles, a large percentage drop out of online quickly and again for shooters they have a better retention rate long term than racing titles (which may be because you are often on the winning team, even if you don't get MVP).

BF1 stats (because we are just using FPS as an example) included screenshots just for quick reference:

IMG_1409.PNG IMG_1410.PNG IMG_1411.PNG

The trophy completion stats show a much bigger proportion of gamers get further in the online trophy completion rather than offline. Which would support what I said previously ...
Do you think people play all of the campaign modes in COD,BF1 - no they play what they have to get online - these games have a different learning curve but no less steep.
Using BF1's trophy list is more useful because of the distinct categories for campaign and multiplayer. Having checked COD it seems the trophies are in favour of campaign play, need a 50/50 split or as close as to get unbiased data, but having said this, and even though it supports what I said I would have to dismiss this data as unrealiable with the potential of being skewed.

The site has over 3.2 million (even more so that this is PS3 and PS4 titles) recorded and tracked gamers. Not enough, but more importantly, as Ive said about GTPlanet previously the stereotypical gamer is not going to find their way to the site and so we are looking to extrapolate meaningful data of gaming habits from a gaming minority that would not be representative of the gaming majority.

Whilst these stats are interesting i would take them with a pinch of salt.
 
Im using something called PSN Profiles, your PSN profile shows up so Im guessing the results are somewhat useful, and that would be a lot of games.

This is to be expected, too many variables to prevent gamers from completing games.


BF1 stats (because we are just using FPS as an example) included screenshots just for quick reference:

View attachment 669794 View attachment 669795 View attachment 669796

The trophy completion stats show a much bigger proportion of gamers get further in the online trophy completion rather than offline. Which would support what I said previously ...

Using BF1's trophy list is more useful because of the distinct categories for campaign and multiplayer. Having checked COD it seems the trophies are in favour of campaign play, need a 50/50 split or as close as to get unbiased data, but having said this, and even though it supports what I said I would have to dismiss this data as unrealiable with the potential of being skewed.

The site has over 3.2 million (even more so that this is PS3 and PS4 titles) recorded and tracked gamers. Not enough, but more importantly, as Ive said about GTPlanet previously the stereotypical gamer is not going to find their way to the site and so we are looking to extrapolate meaningful data of gaming habits from a gaming minority that would not be representative of the gaming majority.

Whilst these stats are interesting i would take them with a pinch of salt.
I used the actual stats from PSN as they will include every player who has a connected PS4 (as it autosyncs trophy's), BF1 is also a potentially confusing one, as the campaign isn't a standard linear one, but a set of unconnected stories that can be approached in any order at all.

However despite that each of the stories has a completion percentage in the mid 30's, which indicates that its not an area ignored by players at all, yes on-line is more attractive to players (I didn't say otherwise for shooters) however the drop out rate is also very high

However the core of what we are talking about is racing titles, and in that regard on-line has a significantly lower participation rate, with a high (that I have found) for F1 2016 of 26.7% completing 1 online race, dropping to 16.8% for completing 5 on-line races.

At the lower end you have Dirt Rally with only 13.2% ever even trying a PvP race online, 4.2% finishing a weekly online challenge and 1.2% completing a monthly on-line challenge, with only 1.5% completing a season in a league. Dirt Rally is interesting in one way as it doesn't have a large 'single player' element to it either (more than we have seen with GTS so far, but still not long at all). I personally have played the challenges and leagues to death on it, and am quite surprised at how low these figures are. Numbers for mid level performance off-line however are in the 40's (fully upgrade a FWD or RWD car).

Interestingly the online stats for Dirt4 are very close to Dirt Rally's, however the offline shows higher levels of mid level completion.
 
I'm using either my PS4 or the PSN app, both of which show the results for every game you have played and the PSN stats for them (across PS4, PS3 and Vita).

Ahh so thats what those percentages represent 👍.

I would assume though that sony, therefore PD would have access to more relavant stats than just trophy completion? Or would they not and that would fall under some data protection?

After comparing my trophy collection for GT6 i am also somewhat surprised to the drop off rate, is that because what I consider to be an easy game is actually not, or the more likely the regular gamer to buy a racing sim is looking for something else? Like how theres not really anything recorded from the arcade part of the game?
 
Ahh so thats what those percentages represent 👍.

I would assume though that sony, therefore PD would have access to more relavant stats than just trophy completion? Or would they not and that would fall under some data protection?

After comparing my trophy collection for GT6 i am also somewhat surprised to the drop off rate, is that because what I consider to be an easy game is actually not, or the more likely the regular gamer to buy a racing sim is looking for something else? Like how theres not really anything recorded from the arcade part of the game?
Solo players selling GT6 as it was not what they expected?
 
Ahh so thats what those percentages represent 👍.
Yep, the number I have been giving are all for single platform, but are for the vast majority of PS4 users (certainly the largest data set we can get access to).

I would assume though that sony, therefore PD would have access to more relavant stats than just trophy completion? Or would they not and that would fall under some data protection?
I think we all signed away any right to that when you joined PSN, however the raw data is handy enough without personal details.

After comparing my trophy collection for GT6 i am also somewhat surprised to the drop off rate, is that because what I consider to be an easy game is actually not, or the more likely the regular gamer to buy a racing sim is looking for something else? Like how theirs not really anything recorded from the arcade part of the game?
I think a lot of serious racers assume that others share the same mindset, and the vast majority don't find it easy or to have a straightforward learning curve.

Hence the reason why I personally believe that off-line is far more valuable in a racing title as a familiarization tool, and that shooters are a poor comparison. Shooters are almost exclusively team sports when played on-line, and the best ones engineered to flatter a wide range of play styles. Not accurate or quick enough for up close, go for a medic or engineer class, or work from a distance as a sniper or spotter (I used to earn more points from spotting in BF4 that from shooting people). On top of that no matter how badly you play you still have a roughly 50/50 chance of 'winning' as a team, as such its a lot less intimidating.

On-line racing has no such flexibility, team based events (outside of leagues and you have to prove your self as a solo racer to get on most teams - which becomes a catch 22) are almost non existent, each race has one winner and that it. You have no alternative progression routes apart from being the fastest and most consistent on track. It psychological barrier to entry is far higher than with shooters, and te rewards for personal gratification far, far harder to gain for the new racer. Its why personally I'm not surprised by the low numbers of people who even try it, and the far lower numbers who stick around for even the short term.

Its why the asymmetrical nature of DriveClubs face-offs worked so well. The first time you do one you will win it, because its against a very low benchmark. After that you get ranked against someone only a bit better than you (and normally from your friends list if possible). As these take place during off-line races you then have a situation in which you can potentially 'win' many times during a race, even if you lose the race itself. It provides multiple levels and possibilities for success that is well balanced to ability, which drives people to try again and again to better the next face-off.
 
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Slight tangent to the discussion, and I'm not trying to start an argument, but I was just watching a german Playstation video about PCars2 and the visuals seemed quite poor. It's as if they've stuffed the game with tonnes of effects, but not bothered to do any of them very well. It was all very... PS3? Compared to that GTS night video, it really does pale in comparison. Just my opinion of course...

Seems as though poor visual FX work is the trade-off for having all that excellent livetrack stuff (and all those tracks) and in such a comparatively short development time.

Personally I'd rather have visual quality prioritised over features, and time taken rather than games rushed, but maybe I'm in a minority there.
 
Slight tangent to the discussion, and I'm not trying to start an argument, but I was just watching a german Playstation video about PCars2 and the visuals seemed quite poor. It's as if they've stuffed the game with tonnes of effects, but not bothered to do any of them very well. It was all very... PS3? Compared to that GTS night video, it really does pale in comparison. Just my opinion of course...

Seems as though poor visual FX work is the trade-off for having all that excellent livetrack stuff (and all those tracks) and in such a comparatively short development time.

Personally I'd rather have visual quality prioritised over features, and time taken rather than games rushed, but maybe I'm in a minority there.
The visuals seam to look less impressive as time gets closer to release.
 
Slight tangent to the discussion, and I'm not trying to start an argument, but I was just watching a german Playstation video about PCars2 and the visuals seemed quite poor. It's as if they've stuffed the game with tonnes of effects, but not bothered to do any of them very well. It was all very... PS3? Compared to that GTS night video, it really does pale in comparison. Just my opinion of course...

Seems as though poor visual FX work is the trade-off for having all that excellent livetrack stuff (and all those tracks) and in such a comparatively short development time.

Personally I'd rather have visual quality prioritised over features, and time taken rather than games rushed, but maybe I'm in a minority there.
No matter how good something looks, if it plays crap, it is crap. So I'd rather any dev give equal priority to features and looks. However, I don't follow the mantra of form over function so if visuals have to take a bit of a knock for the game to be compelling I'd go with that every day of the week.

If I had to guess then I'd say most would be quite happy with form over function. That's the shallow world we live in these days.
 
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