Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

[TS050]

Course Maker - Maybe 20 months late, but still the only game with such a thing

Trackmania Turbo says hello.

The moon - The moon

The moon isn't that special. It wouldn't sway me to buy a game if all I heard from it was that you could "drive on the moon".

 

[SlipZtrEm]

PD wont care about being called the ,,laughing stock of the industry'' when they are still considered the developer of the best selling driving game. (And despite selling lower numbers than part 5, GT6 still sold more than all the other racing games of its time )

Are you suggesting PD shouldn't care about the quality of their game so long as they remain the highest-selling title? Even if the last game sold less than half its predecessor?

PD was the butt of a lot of jokes back before GT5's launch. The only game that I can remember getting a worse treatment about its seemingly vapourware status was Duke Nukem Forever.

We're now almost 30 months into the PS4's life, and six months since the one (and only) presentation about GT Sport. That's worse than anything GT5 managed, and this is supposed to be a smaller, more focused title.

It's not unreasonable for people to be concerned.

Racing games havent changed its principles in the last years

Which is probably why the entire genre has seen a decline...

This is true, for sure. But that could be rather said about Call of Duty than Gran Turismo. To me atleast, GT6 is the overall best game i've played.

Or it can be said for both.

I imagine you haven't played many games, then. GT6 isn't even the best GT game!

One just cant be the "laughing stock of the industry" when he is the one which sells the most games.

You're right: Bieber is an absolutely serious musician. The Corolla and F150 are the two best vehicles in the world.

Does Apple care that so many android users are calling Apples products un innovative, outdated and what not? No, because its just some Android Fanboys who are saying this, despite their products being good selling well.

This hints at the problem you have looking at the situation: you see any opinion varying from your own as that of a "fanboy" of the "opposing side".

I love my iPhone. I recognize it loses out in some aspects compared to Android. In a similar way, I very much enjoy the GT series. But I recognize its numerous short-comings compared to the competition. That's why I want to see it improve: a combination of survival of the fittest, and competition breeding excellence. A truly great GT Sport won't just be good for Polyphony, it'll be good for the entire genre.

So why should PD care that a few GT "fans" (...) here on GT Planet are calling them "the laughing stock in the industry"? Despite their products being good and selling well...

See what I said above.

You're frankly delusional if you think the only place on the internet critical of PD is right here.

PD made their games in that way since GT1 - and always delivered great games that sold well! So why should they have to change anything?

If even you agree they've been making more or less the same game for 18 years, then you can see the problem, no?

The last game sold far less than any other fully-numbered title. Sure, the genre and industry both seem to be on a downwards trend, and we don't know what sort of internal targets were in place. But that is a huge drop. If over half the people that bought GT5 didn't see the need to move to GT6, what does it say about the game?

So Polyphony isnt the innovative industry leader because they didnt communicate officially since the announcement of GT Sport? I guess Vision GT, GT Academy, Partnership with FIA and other stuff doenst count something...

They're all brilliant marketing schemes. Vision GT still hasn't been completed. The FIA partnership might as well not even exist: it was announced two years ago, with a championship meant to arrive in GT6 last year.

as well as having the only recent game in the genre of driving sims with an Course Maker, the Partnership with the Ayrton Senna Institute, the Goodwood stuff, the possibility to drive on the moon...

Course Maker is a genuinely unique feature in the genre, I'll admit. Even if it's two-year wait and silly separate-app inclusion count against it. The Senna content was more smart marketing, as other games have his cars. Goodwood is more of the same (marketing), as it's certainly not a great racing location.

The moon driving is one of the most divisive aspects of the game. For every fan of it, you have people questioning how much time it drew away from other aspects of the game's development.

 

[ron86]

Trackmania Turbo says hello.



The moon isn't that special. It wouldn't sway me to buy a game if all I heard from it was that you could "drive on the moon".

"...as well as having the only recent game in the genre of driving sims with an Course Maker..."

 

[jm79]

The moon - The moon

Brilliant

 

[Tornado]

Vision GT - Cars directly designed from the manufacturer exclusively for Gran Turismo

And? GT6 wasn't even the first game in the GT series where that occurred. It's somewhat telling that when a company that makes wristwatches had its interns draw up a car, the resulting teaser images were so indistinguishable from the generic Batmobiles that half of the VGT roster ended up being even before it flamed out that a shocking portion of this subforum simply knew it had to be a surprise VGT announcement.


And having cars in a racing game passes for innovation now?

GT Academy - One of a kind event with the chance to become a race driver - starting by competing events in Gran Turismo

And that innovation presents itself in the game by doing the same time trial structure the series had all the way back to Gran Turismo 3. Half the time the GT Academy contribute so little to the actual game that they they've just released an entirely separate download on PSN to perform it with.


And having races in a racing game passes for innovation now?

Course Maker - Maybe 20 months late, but still the only game with such a thing

Too bad it barely resembled the thing they announced it to be, and wasn't as good as the one from games 13 years its senior when its initial hype made it sound like it would obliterate it, but I already gave it a pass as a feature and it (as well as the promise of it coming) certainly extended the life of the game far beyond what it originally would have had.

Ayrton Senna - Special events which added go-karts and cars of Ayrton Senna

GT6 (again) wasn't even the first game in the Gran Turismo series to have cars that were famous for being driven by Ayrton Senna. But still:


Having cars in a racing game passes for innovation now?

Goodwood - which games do have this track and special events on it?

Having a track in a racing game passes for innovation now?

The moon - The moon

 

[cutmeamango]

The real laughing stock.

 

[Imari]

PD made their games in that way since GT1 - and always delivered great games that sold well! So why should they have to change anything?

You're not going to get this no matter how many times it's explained to you, are you?

Standing still means that eventually you're overtaken. No matter how far ahead you started.

As for what you think of as innovation, you're in a small group as far as most of that stuff goes. GT Academy is the only seriously new and fresh idea that Polyphony have brought to the table in the PS3 era, pretty much everything else is their take on old ideas or straight up marketing.

GTA was and is brilliant, but the Gran Turismo side of it is little more than a set of online time trials, which have been a thing for years before Gran Turismo got to it. I'd argue that Nissan are doing all the real innovation there by taking the people from the top of an online leaderboard and putting them in a real car.

 

[Soundtrack]

I blame VR to be honest, guessing PD as usual didn't go for a locked 60 and they found trouble.

They would not be the only ones. Driveclub, Bloodborne, Uncharted4, Ratchet… The number of PS4 exclusives that targeted 60fps and finished with a locked 30 instead can not just be fortuitous.

 

[ron86]

As its too time consuming to respond properly to all of you because i am at work i try to sum it up:

,,I disagree''

,,You didnt get how i meant that''

,,You can dismiss everything as not innovate then''

,,Wow, there are really other non sim racing games which features the moon ?! ...''

,,I am not deluded, GTPlanet IS both the best and sadly also (by far) to worst place for fans of Gran Turismo"

,,So, is Nissan laughing at Toyota for making the Corolla which outsells their cars? Or is Chevy laughing at Ford for selling more F-150 then they sell Silverados? Do you consider those cars really the laughing stock of the car industry?''
.....
...........

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

As its too time consuming to respond properly to all of you because i am at work i try to sum it up:

,,i disagree''

,,you didnt get how i meant that''

,,you can dismiss everything as not innovate then''

,,wow, there are really other non sim racing games which features the moon ?! ...''

,,i am not deluded, GTPlanet IS both the best and sadly also (by far) to worst place for fans of Gran Turismo"

,,so, is nissan laughing at toyota for making the corolla which outsells their cars? Or is Chevy laughing at Ford for selling more F-150 then they sell silverados? Do you consider those cars really the laughing stock of the car industry?''
.....
...........

Off-topic, but why d you always open your quotes with two commas instead of a double-quote? It's annoying.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Off-topic, but why d you always open your quotes with two commas instead of a double-quote? It's annoying.

That's how quotation marks are written in German and Austrian.

That being said, @ron86 - I know the Shift key still has a purpose over there. Please use it.

If you have a problem with people having critical opinions regarding GT (and it seems you do, judging by the "worst place" comment), I suggest looking for an appropriate echo chamber of yes-men.

 

[ron86]

Off-topic, but why d you always open your quotes with two commas instead of a double-quote? It's annoying.

I am sorry for annoying you, in german we write quotes with the beginning symbol on the downside (,,) and the ending one on the upper side (") - didnt know its different in english.

That's how quotation marks are written in German and Austrian.

That being said, @ron86 - I know the Shift key still has a purpose over there. Please use it.

Done

 

[Samus]

As its too time consuming to respond properly to all of you because i am at work i try to sum it up:

,,i disagree''

,,you didnt get how i meant that''

,,you can dismiss everything as not innovate then''

,,wow, there are really other non sim racing games which features the moon ?! ...''

,,i am not deluded, GTPlanet IS both the best and sadly also (by far) to worst place for fans of Gran Turismo"

,,so, is nissan laughing at toyota for making the corolla which outsells their cars? Or is Chevy laughing at Ford for selling more F-150 then they sell silverados? Do you consider those cars really the laughing stock of the car industry?''
.....
...........

You haven't explained why the moon was a good thing. How many people positively critiqued that? How many outlets came out saying how fun and innovative it was? Who is still talking about it today, replaying the events given any chance? Yes, it was new, but it was not seen as a positive addition by most. Just adding X isn't enough.

Some of the other things you mention can be seen as a reason for their decline. Vision GT is no doubt a new idea and an innovative collaboration between car makers and game makers but what does it mean for the game? It means a few new cars in the game, nothing more.

Same for GT Academy, it's a great program for those top drivers who progress but how has it affected the game for the vast majority of players? As others have said, it added some bog standard time trial events.

They've done a lot of interesting and innovative things over the last 10 years, it's just a shame so few have positively impacted the actual game in a meaningful way. The FIA connection remains to be seen if it'll genuinely add to the gameplay.

Also it's not just sales of GT that are on a decline, metacritic:

Gran Turismo 96
Gran Turismo 2 93
Gran Turismo 3 95
Gran Turismo 4 89
Gran Turismo 5 84
Gran Turismo 6 81

Yes, reviews are objective and not the be all and end all but there is no denying the reaction to the game has lessened over the years, primarily BECAUSE it hasn't innovated or changed enough. GT6 is still mostly the same game as GT1 and key elements like sound and AI haven't improved a great deal either.

As for being a laughing stock perhaps that isn't really the right phrase but whilst other developers certainly respect PD for how many games they can sell in turn they can also still get a chuckle out of how slow they are, and how poor some elements of their games are.

There was even a Codemasters dev posting on this very board the other day having a not so subtle dig at how bad PDs sounds are, and that Codies are much better. Sure they don't sell as many games, but they certainly take comfort in knowing their games are better in many areas.

 

[sems4arsenal]

They would not be the only ones. Driveclub, Bloodborne, Uncharted4, Ratchet… The number of PS4 exclusives that targeted 60fps and finished with a locked 30 instead can not just be fortuitous.

Difference is none of these support VR, and a sim racer is a must at 60FPS, a platformer a TPS, an RPG and an arcade racer can be excused somewhat.

 

[cutmeamango]

Maybe they should release a game where cars drive humans.

Innovation that excites.

 

[Samus]

I blame VR to be honest, guessing PD as usual didn't go for a locked 60 and they found trouble.

Ssshhhh i said the same before, but don't you dare to mention it

You'll get jumped at lol

Yes because as I showed, PD have always targeted locked 60fps. They didn't reach it on PS3, but they targeted it. I didn't see any rebuttal from yourself @azidahaka to support your theory they were just aiming for 30fps before Sony said they wanted 60.

 

[ron86]

You haven't explained why the moon was a good thing. How many people positively critiqued that? How many outlets came out saying how fun and innovative it was? Who is still talking about it today, replaying the events given any chance? Yes, it was new, but it was not seen as a positive addition by most. Just adding X isn't enough.

Some of the other things you mention can be seen as a reason for their decline. Vision GT is no doubt a new idea and an innovative collaboration between car makers and game makers but what does it mean for the game? It means a few new cars in the game, nothing more.

Same for GT Academy, it's a great program for those top drivers who progress but how has it affected the game for the vast majority of players? As others have said, it added some bog standard time trial events.

They've done a lot of interesting and innovative things over the last 10 years, it's just a shame so few have positively impacted the actual game in a meaningful way. The FIA connection remains to be seen if it'll genuinely add to the gameplay.

Also it's not just sales of GT that are on a decline, metacritic:

Gran Turismo 96
Gran Turismo 2 93
Gran Turismo 3 95
Gran Turismo 4 89
Gran Turismo 5 84
Gran Turismo 6 81

Yes, reviews are objective and not the be all and end all but there is no denying the reaction to the game has lessened over the years, primarily BECAUSE it hasn't innovated or changed enough. GT6 is still mostly the same game as GT1 and key elements like sound and AI haven't improved a great deal either.

As for being a laughing stock perhaps that isn't really the right phrase but whilst other developers certainly respect PD for how many games they can sell in turn they can also still get a chuckle out of how slow they are, and how poor some elements of their games are.

There was even a Codemasters dev posting on this very board the other day having a not so subtle dig at how bad PDs sounds are, and that Codies are much better. Sure they don't sell as many games, but they certainly take comfort in knowing their games are better in many areas.

So, where has Dirt Rally improved over Colin McRae Rally that much? (Btw i play Dirt Rally myself and its great)

Surely, GT5 and GT6 are like GT1 - just with a few little changes nobody needs, like: Physics, Graphics, Day/Night Cycle, Dynamic Weather, Photomode, Course Maker, B-Spec Mode, On Line play, Car and Track Count, GT Academy and many things more. And hey, the Sound and AI, even if not good, have definitly improved over GT1 too

GT6 is in its heart still a Gran Turismo, thats true. But thats the reason many people play it.

 

[cutmeamango]

You know what Gran Turismo is missing? A Pet system and HP bars.

 

[Samus]

So, where has Dirt Rally improved over Colin McRae Rally that much? (Btw i play Dirt Rally myself and its great)

Having not played it I couldn't tell you.

Surely, GT5 and GT6 are like GT1 - just with a few little changes nobody needs, like: Physics, Graphics, Day/Night Cycle, Dynamic Weather, Photomode, Course Maker, B-Spec Mode, On Line play, Car and Track Count, GT Academy and many things more. And hey, the Sound and AI, even if not good, have definitly improved over GT1 too

GT6 is in its heart still a Gran Turismo, thats true. But thats the reason many people play it.

I'm talking about the general structure of the game. It is still the same old "Pick an event from a list, win it, pick the next one, win credits, the end". The events themselves are even still mostly the same and people are clearly getting tired of it. Physics, graphics, cars and tracks are an expected improvement, as was online play when that time came. Most of the other stuff you mention are just extra side-features, not affecting the core gameplay. Photomode is not a core part of the gameplay in a racing game.

GT Academy added nothing new to the gameplay, I've already said that.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

So, where has Dirt Rally improved over Colin McRae Rally that much? (Btw i play Dirt Rally myself and its great)

Surely, GT5 and GT6 are like GT1 - just with a few little changes nobody needs, like: Physics, Graphics, Day/Night Cycle, Dynamic Weather, Photomode, Course Maker, B-Spec Mode, On Line play, Car and Track Count, GT Academy and many things more. And hey, the Sound and AI, even if not good, have definitly improved over GT1 too

GT6 is in its heart still a Gran Turismo, thats true. But thats the reason many people play it.

I thought you didn't have time to respond?

Come to think of it, I'm not sure this really counts as an improvement from an AI perspective. I don't remember them doing this in GT1, at the very least:



I can only hope GT Sport doesn't continue this.

 

[Soundtrack]

Difference is none of these support VR, and a sim racer is a must at 60FPS, a platformer a TPS, an RPG and an arcade racer can be excused somewhat.

The point is that despite the initial will, there is more than one developer that had to renounce underway. Presumably, PD just cannot afford to. And the induced massive time consuming optimisation could explain we haven't heard much about the game recently. Never considered waiting till E3 like a major problem in the first place; but the recent string of events got me slightly worried.

 

[ron86]

I thought you didn't have time to respond?

Come to think of it, I'm not sure this really counts as an improvement from an AI perspective. I don't remember them doing this in GT1, at the very least:



I can only hope GT Sport doesn't continue this.

Have you tried to stand still on the track? The AI cars are actually avoiding you greatly (since GT5 Prologue)! The main problem is that they drive too slow in corners and the problem you showed in the video - other than that the AIs behavior is good!

And i said that i dont have the time to respond properly, not to dont reply at all! Its just too much to respond to 3 big messages directed to me in a detailed way!

Having not played it I couldn't tell you.



I'm talking about the general structure of the game. It is still the same old "Pick an event from a list, win it, pick the next one, win credits, the end". The events themselves are even still mostly the same and people are clearly getting tired of it. Physics, graphics, cars and tracks are an expected improvement, as was online play when that time came. Most of the other stuff you mention are just extra side-features, not affecting the core gameplay. Photomode is not a core part of the gameplay in a racing game.

GT Academy added nothing new to the gameplay, I've already said that.

I remember the time before GT5 was released when everyone was fearing that the GT mode would change and hoped that it stays like it was in GT titles before.

You really can dismiss everything to not being adding something or being not innovative or whatever

The core of every driving game is to drive with things on wheels on the surfaces - if you think that way no game ever has added anything.

 

[Samus]

Have dou tried to stand still on the track? The AI cars are actually avoiding you greatly (since GT5 Prologue)!

Who cares? I've never understood this comparison of AI in games, why would I care how good they are at avoiding stationary cars? I want to see how good at racing me, and you just said they're bad! So except for being terrible at racing you in a racing game, the AI are good!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Have you tried to stand still on the track? The AI cars are actually avoiding you greatly (since GT5 Prologue)! The main problem is that they drive too slow in corners and the problem you showed in the video - other than that the AIs behavior is good!

So they've gained basic spatial awareness, but lost the ability to fight for a win.

That's a two-steps-forward, three-steps-back situation if I've ever heard one!

 

[Samus]

I remember the time before GT5 was released when everyone was fearing that the GT mode would change and hoped that it stays like it was in GT titles before.

Everyone? Are they still feeling the same, after two games later of more of the same?

You really can dismiss everything to not being adding something or being not innovative or whatever

I dismissed the specific example you gave me (GT Academy), do you have a counter to show that it did greatly add to the actual game?

The core of every driving game is to drive with things on wheels on the surfaces - if you think that way no game ever has added anything.

Yes, once you get onto the track there isn't much you can do when you're trying to simulate reality. You can however do a heck of a lot in how and why you get to the track, what it rewards you and the general structure. PD haven't bothered, except for not being able to decide whether the (also stale) license tests should be optional or not and changing the requirements for events from licenses to XP and stars.

 

[ron86]

Everyone? Are they still feeling the same, after two games later of more of the same?



I dismissed the specific example you gave me (GT Academy), do you have a counter to show that it did greatly add to the actual game?



Yes, once you get onto the track there isn't much you can do when you're trying to simulate reality. You can however do a heck of a lot in how and why you get to the track, what it rewards you and the general structure. PD haven't bothered, except for not being able to decide whether the (also stale) license tests should be optional or not and changing the requirements for events from licenses to XP and stars.

Hmm, it did ad the possibility to become a real race driver? Other than that it added events and cars, so nothing special. And it definitly isnt innovative, as every racing game nowadays offers that...

What does add something to a racing game if the stuff i mentioned somewhere before doesnt? I mean, if even rallying on the moon with a moon buggy doenst add something i dont know what


Btw the people looking for news must love this thread

 

[Johnnypenso]

Have you tried to stand still on the track? The AI cars are actually avoiding you greatly (since GT5 Prologue)! The main problem is that they drive too slow in corners and the problem you showed in the video - other than that the AIs behavior is good!

The main problem with the AI in GT is that it is the worst in all of Sim racing. Other than that, yeah, it's good.

 

[cutmeamango]

IA events (and hard seasonals) forward they stop pace matching. S events (and expert seasonals), they are seemingly pace locked even, that is, if you restart the race and drive the same you'll find them really close to where you previously found them.

And yes, they are /too/ aware of the player and contact averse. The main thing is that players generally don't respect adversary paces and lines (that becomes an awful vice in online races). And PD solution for a no-intrusion experience was making the act like they are always out-lapped.

It's a different behaviour from aggressive/semi-aware behaviour of drivatars (which after playing for almost 10 hours one day, made me think it could perhaps be the best solution in the future with improved task learning), that at Unbeatable you'll see some of them behaving like a player hot lapping, yet at times you see they trying to react at the presence of other cars, so there must be some balance in imitating players lines and being an AI.

Or Assetto Corsa's (Automobilista as well, but they are more frisky with contact too) 'guided by the lines' AI, which is the norm for racing games. They made the AI slower because it just wasn't working between different physics and simplistic awareness between them. At least they are not PCars "how many crashes can we get in a 30 lap race?" AI. Contact happens when you can't avoid it, PCars AI has no reservations on it, body-checking each other. But if that's good, that's good.

 

[PzR Slim]

Btw the people looking for news must love this thread

Provide it then......oh that's right there isn't any!

 

[ron86]

The main problem with the AI in GT is that it is the worst in all of Sim racing. Other than that, yeah, it's good.

Yeah, the whole game seriously SUCKS

To be honest, my life in Gran Turismo consists pretty much solely of testing numerous cars alone on tracks and doing the seasonal time trial and drift events to earn money - so my connection to the AI isnt the biggest one.
And you know what? That car testing thing is what keeps me playing GT for years - an A-Spec mode just lasts as so long as it lasts.

But better AI surely is important for future GTs. I just dont have the same amount of rage about that as you guys have.