Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

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Johnnypenso
If they don't sort out the netcode GTSport will be a huge exercise in frustration for a lot of people. I'd like to see a driver rating system more than anything but I just don't see it happening for a number of reasons. Primarily I think PD will see it as a hinderance to people going online and that's the last thing they want. Their primary interest is to move units, not fair and clean racing. Assetto Corsa is highly moddable and one of the guys came up with a driver rating system on his own called Minorating, which is a simple type of system I've advocated for a long time, that is, it simply counts laps/contact, with only a slight weighting system if fault is obvious but even then both drivers get contact points. It changes behaviour online and it works. I've had some of my best open lobby races ever, in any game, on MR servers lately. It's available to all hosts and you can restrict entry to your lobby to any rating level or leave it wide open.
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Enthusia has a similar system. Every contact you made accounts to your stats and the price will be reduced on that race.

Though on that game is a bit overkill. Should have been better in some way.
 
Remember the PS4 reveal where Kaz said something like PS4 is a blank slate, where you can start all over. I'm guessing that is exactly what they did, a complete overhaul of their engines while retaining up to date assetts. Makes sense a bit all this delay.
 
syntex123
Sounds like a good idea @Johnnypenso. But I see flaws in such a rating system. What if you get rammed a lot and never do the same to others, wouldn't you be placed with only rammers? If you understand what I mean. Then you never get to "progress" to the more clean and awesome races, you're stuck in a vicious cycle of "noob racing". I rarely play pCars anymore because almost all the lobbies I join have crashers in them. Always some person who brakes too late and instead of changing lane he crashes into me, or there are people who use me as a shoulder to lean on when cornering. Frustrating to say the least. If this was in AC (or GT for that matter, if they add this) with that rating system, I'd be doomed to play in the crash'n'bash lobbies only.
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No system is perfect but with some planning it's not difficult at all to overcome all of the issues you raised. A rolling average for example, that uses only your last X laps to calculate your rating, lets you drop the older, bad laps in favour of newer ones. Rooms can be rated or unrated, host's choice. You have to realize that the whole dynamic of online racing will change with a rating system. Someone who is only interested in crashing will quickly not have anywhere to race but unrated rooms, making rated rooms cleaner overall. Hosts will be more vigilant too because their own driver rating is affected by bad drivers. If given the tools they will make better decisions. Say after each race a drivers report is available. Driver 1-9 have 5 incidents in total, driver 10 has 5 incidents. A good host will ask what happened and maybe give driver 10 a second chance if he's apologetic etc. If not, he gets the boot. The problems will work themselves out in quick order because no one will tolerate the idiots anymore, they'll quickly end up in the cesspool of online racing, the unrated rooms.
 
syntex123
Sounds like a good idea @Johnnypenso. But I see flaws in such a rating system. What if you get rammed a lot and never do the same to others, wouldn't you be placed with only rammers? If you understand what I mean. Then you never get to "progress" to the more clean and awesome races, you're stuck in a vicious cycle of "noob racing".
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It doesn't happen.

What does happen is that most people think that every incident that they're involved in is the other person's fault, so in the short term it can feel very unfair if you don't understand how the system works. But medium term (like say, a dozen races) it does a pretty good job of sorting the overly aggressive from the safe, and long term it's highly accurate.

Given that a human stewarding system is infeasible, and that any computer system that attempts to assign fault is going to be flaw ridden and probably exploitable, simply tagging everyone involved in every incident is about as good as it gets.

If you're finding yourself on the wrong end of a string of bad luck, which can happen, it's totally possible to get yourself out of it by driving less aggressively. Maybe you don't put yourself into contention for the win for a couple of races and you just cruise around and stay out of people's way.

I imagine that's kind of what happens in real life as well if you run out of money to repair your car. You can keep driving aggressively and risk having an incident and not being able to race until you save up more, or you can back off a bit and make sure that you at least get to be in the next few races. If you view safety rating as cost of repairs, it feels like it makes a lot more sense.

I'd like to see GT implement it as repair costs, myself. Same rating system, but with dollar values instead of arbitrary points. Your savings go up for the distance that you drive clean, and go down for each incident you have. I think it lets the players understand what's going on better.
 
Ameer67
The problem with your statement is that it goes against how PD made GT6. I remember a while back Kaz was saying they were creating GT6 as a modular platform for future GT games.
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Didn't they mean that in terms of assetts only though? (the cars,tracks etc?) but in terms of say the physics and sound engines I wouldn't be surprised if they started from the drawing board.
 
sems4arsenal
Didn't they mean that in terms of assetts only though? (the cars,tracks etc?) but in terms of say the physics and sound engines I wouldn't be surprised if they started from the drawing board.
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No, I'm pretty confident it was about the games themselves.

GTP: At Silverstone, you described GT6 as a modular platform that can easily be expanded upon.
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https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-engine-sounds/
However, we have refactored the game to make it very flexible and expandable, with a view to making many future developments.
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http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/news/00_1910783.html


The Premiums and some of the new tracks (Suzuka '14, Silverstone, etc) are PS4 ready. Physics in my opinion don't need a total revamp and are OK at the moment but many other aspects like the sound, AI, (netcode too maybe?) are in need of desperate work.
 
Ameer67
The problem with your statement is that it goes against how PD made GT6. I remember a while back Kaz was saying they were creating GT6 as a modular platform for future GT games.
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I don't think you're interpreting the things they said in the way they intended. The GT6 info they talked up always seemed to be referring more to if they wanted to do large expansions/changes on top of GT6 specifically (note how in both of the links the point is brought up in response to changes to GT6) more than it means that GT6 will be a building block for future games; as a point of comparison towards how messy GT5 got when they started trying to add stuff to it and Kaz's lamentations early after GT5's release about how difficult it was to add things to that game after the fact. Consider how differently GT6 does its little patches and bug fixes compared to how much of a slog GT5 was even after Spec II completely changed how the DLC system worked from launch.




And, of course, Kaz also said the same thing with GT5, which was more explicitly in line with modular development platforms:
Will there be a Gran Turismo 6?

Yes. You won't have to wait as long as you did for GT5. GT5 was basically the creation of a whole new operating system, and developing GT6 will be like adding new applications that run on that new operating system.
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And even that didn't seem to have worked out very well for them in the end.
 
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Still, I don't think PD will ever start from scratch again, it makes no sense to do so from a business POV. I mean they claimed GT6 had a "new game engine" but I don't think anyone believes that literally, do they? Parts of the back end might have been totally re-done but most of the core wouldn't have been.

I'd imagine there is still some legacy code from the PS1 games in there somewhere, it's just the nature of software developing.
 
Eurogamer's Digital Foundry review for Gran Turismo 6 seems to lean toward the idea that Polyphony's game engine for GT6 should finally reach its potential on the PS4. That they only need to boost the fidelity of the graphics to really shine through. Or as the article puts it, "it's fair to say that a boost to image quality and performance alone could make for a convincingly high-end PS4 title."

Standard cars notwithstanding of course.

It does seem like GT6, graphically at least, is doing things that are too much for the PS3. Adaptive tessellation being one of the more obvious examples (I think it's impressive that they got that to work on the PS3 at all, even if it only shines though in photo mode). Then there are the arguably over-detailed premium models.

Unless PD decided they want to make the PS4 cry then maybe they aren't building a new engine as it's not really needed.

Now what I want to see PD doing is to do less tinkering with the technology behind the game and more working on the game itself (Edit: reworded that as I realized I was presenting an either/or case when I really shouldn't be). Gran Turismo can't just be a technology demonstrator anymore when there are other games that can, and have done it far better.
 
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Johnnypenso
Physics (handling is a function of physics so it's the same thing) aren't an opinion, they are quanitifiable and they are measurably more comprehensive in Project Cars. It's like saying in my opinion the graphics are better in Grid Autosport vs. GT6. The graphics in GT6 are demonstrably and measurably better than Grid Autosport on the PS3 so for one to say their opinion is different is meaningless.
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Yes, I know post is from a few weeks ago, but PCars is a bit hard to measure anything against - the physics is inconsistent, in that it differs between platforms, cars, tires, camber, updates, bugs, 'bugs fixed' but not really, day of the week, what thread/forum you read etc. It can be brilliant, as much as it can be a face palm (very much like GT6 in that aspect.). More comprehensive hasn't really translated to anything that can be consistently measured against.

PD dont really need to lift their game much to surpass PCars imo. Assetto Corsa should be safe though!
 
6 Biggest Sins of GT Series:

1. Standard Cars
2. Slow Development Time
3. Lack of Immersion (Like the wet road that underwhelming. Eifel custom track is good but could've been better for PS4. And other things)
4. Bad Car Sounds (Newer cars are great but not accountable to most of cars. TS030 is the glaring bad and newest example. Also i like to have a rumble effect like any other game ever.)
5. Locked in features (Like lack of dynamic time/weather on some tracks, etc)
6. Some inconsistent and underwhelming things PD in need for attention (Online stability, repetitive seasonals, etc)
 
FrzGT
6 Biggest Sins of GT Series:

1. Standard Cars
2. Slow Development Time
3. Lack of Immersion (Like the wet road that underwhelming. Eifel custom track is good but could've been better for PS4. And other things)
4. Bad Car Sounds (Newer cars are great but not accountable to most of cars. TS030 is the glaring bad and newest example. Also i like to have a rumble effect like any other game ever.)
5. Locked in features (Like lack of dynamic time/weather on some tracks, etc)
6. Some inconsistent and underwhelming things PD in need for attention (Online stability, repetitive seasonals, etc)
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7. Stale GT Mode with terrible AI.
 
Samus
Still, I don't think PD will ever start from scratch again, it makes no sense to do so from a business POV. I mean they claimed GT6 had a "new game engine" but I don't think anyone believes that literally, do they? Parts of the back end might have been totally re-done but most of the core wouldn't have been.

I'd imagine there is still some legacy code from the PS1 games in there somewhere, it's just the nature of software developing.
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Maybe not from scratch but I think they are doing an overhaul, I'm comparing it to let's say this generation frossbite engine as an example, sure the engine itself likely gets updated frequently but for this generation there was an overhaul and with dependance on PBR and such in terms of graphics. I think what PD may not overhaul are their lighting, physics(to an extent) but a lot of other stuff would need a do over I think.
 
I just want to say that other games have so much happening right now that it is hard to stay focused on the GT series, I rarely even look at other car games since i got the first GT but i now see all that is happening with racing genre and wonder how long will GT be the number one.
 
GTP_Rex2000
I just want to say that other games have so much happening right now that it is hard to stay focused on the GT series, I rarely even look at other car games since i got the first GT but i now see all that is happening with racing genre and wonder how long will GT be the number one.
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Interms of sales it will probably be the biggest (MK aside), but in terms of critical and user ratings it isn't the best.
 
FrzGT
6 Biggest Sins of GT Series:

1. Standard Cars
2. Slow Development Time
3. Lack of Immersion (Like the wet road that underwhelming. Eifel custom track is good but could've been better for PS4. And other things)
4. Bad Car Sounds (Newer cars are great but not accountable to most of cars. TS030 is the glaring bad and newest example. Also i like to have a rumble effect like any other game ever.)
5. Locked in features (Like lack of dynamic time/weather on some tracks, etc)
6. Some inconsistent and underwhelming things PD in need for attention (Online stability, repetitive seasonals, etc)
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Really? In the 'GT Sport' thread?
 
sems4arsenal
Interms of sales it will probably be the biggest (MK aside), but in terms of critical and user ratings it isn't the best.
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Mario Kart isn't the biggest selling racing franchise, it's second to NFS. NFS has around 150 million units sold, MK has around 105 million, and GT is third with around 73 million.
 
Mike_grpA
Mario Kart isn't the biggest selling racing franchise, it's second to NFS. NFS has around 150 million units sold, MK has around 105 million, and GT is third with around 73 million.
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Meant it interms of individual game sales, a stand alone Mario Kart game is the only racing game that can get GT like sales numbers. Nothing comes close to these two.
 
Mike_grpA
Mario Kart isn't the biggest selling racing franchise, it's second to NFS. NFS has around 150 million units sold, MK has around 105 million, and GT is third with around 73 million.
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NFS being avaliable on multiple formats definently helps it hold top spot. In terms of Exclusives, looking at GT versus its nearest competitor in the overall 'racing' genre is a good comparison with that in mind I would say.
 
Brend
NFS being avaliable on multiple formats definently helps it hold top spot. In terms of Exclusives, looking at GT versus its nearest competitor in the overall 'racing' genre is a good comparison with that in mind I would say.
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Oh my, never seen that designation before. "Contributing Writer". Congratulations:cheers::cheers:
 
Johnnypenso
Oh my, never seen that designation before. "Contributing Writer". Congratulations:cheers::cheers:
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It's a new one. Looks good, right? :D

MarioKart is undoubtedly helped by its approachability, and the fact there's no real competition on the system – a system that isn't really viewed as direct competition to the PS4/XB1, either. GT has to contend with other, more similar racing games on Sony's platform, plus the Forza franchise over in Microsoft's fleet, as well as all of the PC sims, which generally carry more kudos amongst the serious sim racers.

There was a good discussion a while back, during the whole Virag snafu, about how not only has GT's numbers sank title-over-title, but the entire genre has dipped. Not even accounting for the increase in titles makes up for the loss of total numbers.

It will certainly be interesting how well GT Sport sells though; the PS4 install base is sizeable, and if it's offered at a lower price, that'd help too. It's simply too early to know for sure. I'd also like to know what impact, if any, the title's reception will have on GT7.
 
Johnnypenso
Oh my, never seen that designation before. "Contributing Writer". Congratulations:cheers::cheers:
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Thanks Johnny. :D Means a lot dude.

@SlipZtrEm - You have hit the nail on the head. The attach rate for Nintendo console to Mario Kart is absolutely staggering. There is no real competition, there has been competition but one thing remains consistant. Nintendo are able to tap into a decent enough sized chunk of a lot of different audiences and regardless of who they are, they will usually own Mario Kart.

I would personally say that Gran Turismo, being a staple of the Playstation brand, also benefits from this on a lesser level. I didn't know many people at all who didnt own GT3 on the PS2 at one point. That being said, we are seeing racing games in general stagnating so GTS will be a really interesting release for the series'. The demographic has changed, not many people are going to be wooed and brought in by a technical showcase like previous generations.
 
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The real dilemma facing PD and this genre as a whole IMO is, once you've achieved near reality, then what? Once you're able to reproduce real life racing and series and tuning and features and everyone has played enough so that they've sorted out where they rank among other e-racers, then what? We are quickly approaching that level of realism and GTSport may very well bring us several steps closer but then where do you go from there? How do you keep fans interested and excited when every game offers near reality as a starting point?
 
Let me just share my thoughts on everything about GTS and what's been revealed/discussed:

First off, I just want to say that some of the things I will say may be off of opinion, so some of this isn't entirely true.

Honestly, I see GTSport as PD's chance to soar back ahead in the racing genre. If everything goes well, this could very well be the game that could give Forza, Project Cars, AC and such, a run for their money. However, such expectations should never be so high, as we know very little about what PD has in store for their new game, except for the fact that it will be focused on the FIA Online Championship. We've only seen one trailer, some Facebook messages, twitter posts, pictures, etc. It's all been visual proof, but we've never seen the game run at its core. The car/track count? What do these 3 game modes do differently? How are the physics? Are they realistic? There's so many questions we could ask; it shows how much we know about it. Not only just that, but when is "Spring 2016"? When will beta exactly release? When will the full game release? Is this just for feedback for GT7? The questions will only continue until we get more confirmed info from PD themselves. But the most important question: Will it revive the GT franchise? After what GT6 brought, which didn't "woo" us very much, will it bring us back to a game that will make us all say "Gran Turismo is back"?

To all of this, who knows... but there's only thing we can do at the moment, and that's to wait and look forward to what is to come for GTSport and what PD will bring us in the future.
 

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