Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion
- Thread starter Formidable
- 47,132 comments
- 4,750,229 views
- 152
- South Africa
- Toblakai99
Basically all games that release now and in the future will have some sort of online component.It is just the way things are going, you need a internet connection to play games these days with the amount of patches games receive.
Not really sure what you're saying to be honest but this series of posts was really just to point of that single player is still a very large market in the video games industry.
This may be true but as per above, developers can't afford to just ignore the single player market yet. Getting back around to GT Sport that is what the whole discussion was getting at, the belief that GT Sport isn't offering enough for the single player experience which may backfire on them.
- 1,001
- Spain
Come on... are you seriously telling me that? By the facts: 4,2 million at max of ps plus subscribers in january 2014 and 2,1 before september 2013 when the release of the ps4 and when the ps plus games were much much better. Denying that of those 21 million the 90 percent is online interested players is an exercise of blindness (when the only thing that changed was the online). All the facts point in that direction. Is like denying the theory of relativity before the discover of the gravitational waves.
I wont keep discussing this thread in particular.
Should i do a list of triple A with online mode? I bet i dont finish until the next week. And sure i dont reach 99%, but who doubt a reach 90% or high 80%...
And the last 4, like you say, are not sold on their online capabilities. But they itroduce online modes because the developers knew the sales would be affected hardly. Because most of the people care about online.
And what happened when they released it? Was completly full of people. So much, it was not functional for almost 2 weeks. And we are not talking about some crappy developer. We are talking about Rockstar. You think GTAV would have sold 80 million copies without the online mode?
It is simply. The online mode is the most important part by far in videogames nowadays; in consoles and PC (What are the most played games in steam?).
We could discuss if it is better offline than online (i couldnt choose between them though, i like both) but there is no sense discussing so basic stuff like that the online is the bigger part of the videogames, that a person is a better AI than a computer and that racing online would improve massively with rating systems.
We´ll see how GT implement the last one. For the good of racing, I hope clean online to have success.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Online is important in some games and not in others. How many units did Last of Us sell and how well reviewed and popular was it without an online mode? Speaking of pc, the developers have been pretty adamant that only 20% of players ever use online services in Assetto Corsa. The numbers for Project Cars in terms of players online at any given time, are about the same as Assetto Corsa, indicating similar online usage. By the way, average number of players online in AC is around 1000 at any given time, which is 0.33% of the user base.
You seem hell bent on drawing massive conclusions from absolutely nothing or from made up numbers. Now there's no sense in discussing basic stuff like online being a bigger part of gaming, when it has never, ever been so in any racing game that I'm aware of. I've already shown you why many people might prefer an offline opponent or offline racing in general to an online experience but you completely ignore any evidence that contradicts your made up conclusions.
More stats.
Steam has nearly 200,000,000 users.
In the last 2 weeks, less than 20% used the service for online gaming.
Average playtime in that 2 weeks of those that used online: 20 minutes.
So, the largest gaming database in human history, in the most online intensive era of gaming in history, shows us that the only 1/5 users even bother with online, and even then, only spend 20 minutes online, about the length of a short, single race session in Gran Turismo. 4/5 users don't go online at all in any given 2 week period. Averaged out over all users, the average person spends 4 minutes online gaming every 2 weeks. Keep in mind, you must have internet access to use Steam and Steam is absolutely free, neither of which is true for PS4.
If you do a little extra math, assuming GT sells 5 million copies, and 1 million bother to use the online services, that's 1 million people for 20 minutes per month, that translates into 1000 people online at any given time for an average of 20 minutes or one race, or about 63 lobbies full of 16 people. The numbers aren't directly transferrable of course, but it gives you an idea of just how much more popular GT must be than the average Steam game, to have even a semi-active online community.
Where are your numbers again?
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- 13,865
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Them goalposts, they are a movin'.
What's most of the people? 51%? 75%? 99%?
Online is not and never will be necessary for a good game. There are amazing single player experiences to be had. If a developers single player game lends itself easily to adding online modes, then the developer will if they have time and resources. If it doesn't then they won't.
Online in Uncharted or Tomb Raider is hardly making or breaking many sales, it's a nice cherry on the top for those who do buy the game. People who seriously want good online multiplayer aren't buying Uncharted or Tomb Raider for it, they're buying Battlefield or Overwatch or Destiny.
You seem to think that everyone shares your point of view that online is crucial to every modern game. You're very, very wrong.
No, you're twisting facts. The 90% increase was in early 2014 and yes, it made perfect sense that there was a huge jump as it was now required for those interested in online play. It continued to grow and reached nearly 21 million by this year. How you then manage to re-use the 90% figure and apply it to the 21 million as people online interested I don't know.
But like I said, even if every single one of those people buy PS+ purely for online play AND are only interested in online play there is still another 20 million, 50%, who don't have PS+ and clearly don't play online. 50% is a huge chunk of the market, some would even call it half.
It's a similar story on the other console. Last figures for XBL place them at 48 million active users. Unlike PS3, it was also required on Xbox 360 to play online, of which there are 84 million alone. Add on top of that the estimated 20 million Xbox One and you're at ~ 104 million consoles and only 48 million XBL users. Discount the amount of Xbox 360s no longer in use and you'd probably end up at around the same figure of around 50% who don't have the ability to go online, and 50% who can go online but you don't know their preference.
You very well might do, but that wasn't the figure you were using in your argument was it? I refuted the 99% number, now you're changing the goalposts because you were wrong.
You can keep saying it all you like, it doesn't make it true.
Neither of us can answer that question, can they? All we can say is that games without online components or games with strong single player focus still sell exceedingly well.
It is simply your opinion, not a fact. ~ 50% of PS4 players don't even have the ability to play online. THAT is a fact.
There is no sense discussing it with you, clearly. You just keep repeating your opinions as if they're facts despite actual facts contrary to your opinion, which just as a reminder, is that approximately 50% of current Xbox and Playstation 4 owners don't even have the service required to play online.
- 27,387
- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
Heh, considering I'm drawing parallels between Battlefront and GT Sport, that's an interesting thought for you to have.
It has nothing to do with incompetency: DICE, as much as people want to rag on anything EA-related, is far from an incompetent developer. It has got a long track record of well-received games over two decades (with the added bonus that they also actually tend to release on time). DICE titles tend to sell in the seven-figure range. The developers built Battlefront exactly how they intended to — it's just that that approach (focusing on online experiences almost exclusively) was not appealing to me.
How, exactly, was the development of Battlefront handled incompetently?
An exercise in blindness, you say?
Alright, if all the "facts" are suggesting 90% of those 21 million subscribers have done so primarily to play online regularly, post them. Post the sources that make this so obvious.
I should remind you of the fourth bullet point on this page that you agreed to when signing up here.
Do you need a hand moving those goalposts?
You are the one that originally said 99%. You're now downgrading it (twice).
You are wrong.
Most = not even half, going by PS+ subscription numbers (which can still include people with only a PS3) and PS4 sales numbers. That's a weird definition of "most".
Come again? How can a person be AI?
Are you saying a person is always a better competitor than AI in a racing game? It's been explained countless times to you how that isn't always true. If you want to keep sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring it, that's fine: but it's still true.
- 696
- Ibicaraí, Bahia - Brasil
- IrwingBR
Uncharted 4, The Witcher 3, Ther Order, Driveclub, really was a "wow" to me. Uncharted for the level of details in skin, foliage ad amazing overall image quallity. The Witcher for the good grafics, for getting in and out of the buildings without loading screens.
And many others games. Even BF4 and GTA V, when you get used to it on the PS4, looks terrible on the PS3. And they are freaking good grafics on the old gen.
- 3,781
- Brisbane, Australia
- Chameleon9000
- 8,426
- Rockay City
Skyrim, a game with no online whatsoever, is still actively played by ~20-30k people each day. Around 0.22-0.27% of the total player base on Steam. So pretty comparable in terms of amount of players that still play it. Online or not has very little to do with it, especially when the amount of content is huge and it's moddable. Skyrim will get a Special Edition pretty soon, which will lead to another surge in mods and players. And it has no online whatsoever.
Battlefronts only problem was lack of content. What's there in terms of game is pretty solid. On top of that, any DICE game has always been about online, offline was always absent or tacked-on. Not sure why anyone would buy those for the single player, it has never been a big thing (or even plain awful in some cases).
- 1,001
- Spain
I leave the conversation. Whats the point? Spending endless time reading and then trying to explained obvious things (superiority of online in gamming presence, person better AI than computer AI); then focusing on irrelevant things like the percentage of triple A (I thought it was clear that i was guessing) when clearly there are more triple A with online or that offline can be better (thats not the discussion). Sure we can discuss if online has more or less presence, but just trying to imply that it doesnt have more presence that offline...
If they want to introduce LMP3 they will have to create another class. Doesnt fit in no one right now.
If they want to introduce LMP3 they will have to create another class. Doesnt fit in no one right now.
- 13,865
- Adelaide
- Neomone
You seem unable to accept that these things are not universally true. For some games online and human opponents are better, for others they are worse. And it's not even necessarily just divided by game types, it also depends on the player and what they're looking for in a game.
You apparently look for competition in games above all else. One day you will (hopefully) discover that there's also other things. They can be fun.
- 1,001
- Spain
That's rather ironic. It's been pointed out several times how AI can be better than a human in several ways, it's been pointed out that online play is 50% of the market at best, but you just stick your fingers in your ears and keep repeating your "obvious" things.
- 13,865
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Nope, I read them. You're still trying to explain "obvious" things like the "superiority of online in gamming presence, person better AI than computer AI", in your own words.
That these things are superior is at best debatable, and a pretty strong argument can be made for them being only situationally superior. They certainly are not "obvious", not to anyone with a decent knowledge of modern gaming. Show me where in your comments you recognise this.
That doesn't change the fact ~50% of PS4/Xbox One/Xbox 360 owners cannot physically play online at all, they don't have the service required. So they're either not playing games at all or are only playing offline. The ~50% that do have the ability to play online, we can't know their preferences. Some may never touch offline at all, some may only partially touch it, some may focus entirely on offline and only play online occasionally. We don't know.
- 397
- Croatia
- GTEFGHA
Copy and paste a 10 page error log and hide your message inside it, the best way to see if he reads it...
- 1,001
- Spain
Person vs computer
Yes, you are not reading my comments or taking no attention at all. For the 100 time, im always talking about clean races.
A computer AI is never by difinition going to be as good as a "person AI", because the computer is meant to simulate the person. The computer doesnt feel, doesnt gen angry, emocional or what so ever. The computer doesnt get nervous if someone is behind it or is the last lap, the computer doesnt get excited if is going to catch someone and suddenly get better times, the computer doesnt thrill. In every single way a person is better, more exciting and more complicated to race with.
No way this
Is better than this
Or this
If you think offline racing is better or more exciting than CLEAN online racing; good for you. It isnt.
Online vs Offline
Triple A with online: GTAV, Uncharted 4, COD BO3, COD Ghost, COD Infinity warfare, COD Advance warfare, Battlefield 1, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, GTSport, Driveclub, Dirt Rally, F1 2015, F12016, WRC5, WRC6, Bloodborne, TLOU, Watch Dogs, Tomb Raider, FIFA 14, FIFA 15, FIFA 16, FIFA 17, WWE2K16, WWE2K17, PES 2015, PES 2016, PES 2017, NBA 2K15, NBA2K16, NBA2K17, The crew, Far cry 4, Assasins creed Unity, Assasins creed black flag, Deux ex mankind divided, mafia 3, The division, Battlefront, street fighter 5, rainbow six eige, need for speed rivals, need for speed, destiny, mad max, Overwatch, Doom, Battleborn, just cause 3, dark souls 3, Killzone
I ve just reached 90% counting fallout, The Witcher 3, Batman Arkham Knight, Fallout 4, Hitman, The Last Guardian, Horizon Zero Dawn.
https://steamspy.com/ --> The top 10 most played games: dota 2, counter strike, team forttress, gta v, paladins, meier civilization, rocket league, unturned, garrys mode, skyrim. Most of them are pure and only online games. The rest of them have online modes bigger than their offline component.
PS4 owners 50% are active ps plus members, of which probably 20 of 21 million users at worse pay plus for online. "Keep saying that, is just your opinion". No, that is what reason is telling us. Why then in ps3 there wasnt more than 2,1 million at very best? When there were double consoles? "keep sticking your fingers in your ears"
Not wasting more time. Next discuss: Sky is brown, cars have 2 wheels and dogs say "miau".
Yes, you are not reading my comments or taking no attention at all. For the 100 time, im always talking about clean races.
A computer AI is never by difinition going to be as good as a "person AI", because the computer is meant to simulate the person. The computer doesnt feel, doesnt gen angry, emocional or what so ever. The computer doesnt get nervous if someone is behind it or is the last lap, the computer doesnt get excited if is going to catch someone and suddenly get better times, the computer doesnt thrill. In every single way a person is better, more exciting and more complicated to race with.
No way this
Is better than this
Or this
If you think offline racing is better or more exciting than CLEAN online racing; good for you. It isnt.
Online vs Offline
Triple A with online: GTAV, Uncharted 4, COD BO3, COD Ghost, COD Infinity warfare, COD Advance warfare, Battlefield 1, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, GTSport, Driveclub, Dirt Rally, F1 2015, F12016, WRC5, WRC6, Bloodborne, TLOU, Watch Dogs, Tomb Raider, FIFA 14, FIFA 15, FIFA 16, FIFA 17, WWE2K16, WWE2K17, PES 2015, PES 2016, PES 2017, NBA 2K15, NBA2K16, NBA2K17, The crew, Far cry 4, Assasins creed Unity, Assasins creed black flag, Deux ex mankind divided, mafia 3, The division, Battlefront, street fighter 5, rainbow six eige, need for speed rivals, need for speed, destiny, mad max, Overwatch, Doom, Battleborn, just cause 3, dark souls 3, Killzone
I ve just reached 90% counting fallout, The Witcher 3, Batman Arkham Knight, Fallout 4, Hitman, The Last Guardian, Horizon Zero Dawn.
https://steamspy.com/ --> The top 10 most played games: dota 2, counter strike, team forttress, gta v, paladins, meier civilization, rocket league, unturned, garrys mode, skyrim. Most of them are pure and only online games. The rest of them have online modes bigger than their offline component.
PS4 owners 50% are active ps plus members, of which probably 20 of 21 million users at worse pay plus for online. "Keep saying that, is just your opinion". No, that is what reason is telling us. Why then in ps3 there wasnt more than 2,1 million at very best? When there were double consoles? "keep sticking your fingers in your ears"
Not wasting more time. Next discuss: Sky is brown, cars have 2 wheels and dogs say "miau".
Could you BE any more arrogant?
Well done on finally admitting that though.
For the sake of argument let's say that is true, you are STILL not accounting for people like myself. I'll say for the third time, I had an XBL subscription with my 360 some years. Its only purpose was for playing online back then, there were no other benefits I'd have it for. I still preferred to play offline most of the time, and you have no idea what preference those 20 million have, despite owning a PS+ sub. Just because they have a PS+ sub for online it doesn't automatically mean that is their main playing preference.
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- 13,865
- Adelaide
- Neomone
No, it's meant to simulate a racing driver. So the choice is mostly "software designed to act like a racing driver" versus "random dude who could afford a PS4".
I can think of plenty of reasonable situations where the software is preferable, considering that everyone isn't skilled enough to get into iRacing Pro Leagues.
AI may not be "better" than the best human driver, for whatever definition of better you want to pick, but there's more that goes into a good race than just driver skill. There's especially more than goes into a good race if you happen to live in an odd location in the world, say, where there isn't a large racing population and the latency to other continents is significant. Online has non-trivial downsides simply due to the physics of connecting computers over long distances, not to mention net-code.
What if you compare it to the ones from Copper Box where they were all running each other off the road?
Cherry picking is tough. If you're only going to compare the very best of online racing with the very worse AI then of course online is going to look good.
Keep saying it and it might become true. Did you notice that you don't actually have any arguments for this? All you seem to be able to do is keep repeating it and hoping that it sticks.
Surely if it's so obvious and fundamental you'll have no trouble explaining in a clean and concise manner why it's true. Because you haven't done so yet.
