GT Mode: Should it stay the same or...

[tillbot8]

It need's to evolve slightly and massively increase in size but overall, I wouldn't like to see it change too much as I think you would lose the essence of what is Gran Turismo!

 

[CayenneGT]

It need's to evolve slightly and massively increase in size but overall, I wouldn't like to see it change too much as I think you would lose the essence of what is Gran Turismo!

I'm all about the essence of GT (well, any game TBH) but change is needed, drastically or else it's gonna suffer the doom of Tomb Raider.

Look at Tomb Raider:
-1 was game breaking
-2 was more of the same but still hot
-3 the same as 2 and still a little hot
-Revelation was starting to cool down a bit but still good, same game
-Chronicle lost a lot of heat and sub-par reviews, same game
-Angel of Darkness (PS2) came out and it tanked super hard because they went forwards with graphics and didn't change the game, more of the same washed out game.

Look at Tomb Raider now, refreshed, new system, new gameplay, new graphics, new story and everything. More are being made because they keep making it feel fresh, its super hot and a true successor to it's roots The essence is still there and man does it smell fresh...

GT is heading towards the direction of Angel of Darkness unless PD realizes this and start to make giant changes. This is my biggest fear of GT is that PD won't 'get it'.

 

[Ills1999]

I'm not a computer guy but it seems to me that if GT5 is capable of making best lap replays, and they can project your ghost onto the track with you in practice mode, wouldn't it be possible with better hardware (PS4) to have you create your own AI for a given race? You enter an event, run some laps, set a best lap replay, then you use that replay to scale up or down in speed, and it's the model used to create the AI for your particular race. They'd all race with your racing lines give or take some preprogrammed variance and at whatever speed you tell them too. You'd have a sliding scale of say -5.0 to +5.0 in increments of 0.1, with zero being the best AI using your exact laptime and -0.1 being 0.1 faster on average etc.

If you could do that, any player of any skill level, anywhere in the world, could have a competitive race. Of course the AI's behaviour would have to be dramatically improved but I'm sure it can be done on PS4, given the comittment.

I think that could be a LOT of fun.

Instead of just running some hot laps yourself, get your friends to run some, too.

 

[YayoiGT2]

It need's to evolve slightly and massively increase in size but overall, I wouldn't like to see it change too much as I think you would lose the essence of what is Gran Turismo!

I say the exact opposite, actually. Gran Turismo has been stagnating because it focused too hard on going over the top with mostly useless details that could have been better spent elsewhere.

How the heck does Shift 2 Unleashed for example have full damage modeling for all 100+ something cars, plus a number of aerodynamic kits for each, and even a full-on road to race car conversion mod? And that was made by some pillocks in a basement.

How does Forza Motorsport 4 have a majority of cars at least sound somewhat correct?

Somewhere down the line, you have to stop adhering to the current "definition" of a franchise, and rethink it from the ground up. Because even the fans will get bored of the same formula being rehashed with new graphics and maybe better controls; I know I am.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm not a computer guy but it seems to me that if GT5 is capable of making best lap replays, and they can project your ghost onto the track with you in practice mode, wouldn't it be possible with better hardware (PS4) to have you create your own AI for a given race? You enter an event, run some laps, set a best lap replay, then you use that replay to scale up or down in speed, and it's the model used to create the AI for your particular race.

Something like you describe was actually done in Forza 1 as a "drivatar," an idea I wish Polyphony would borrow from Turn 10, because I had a lot of fun with it, making a dream driver which I used to win some stupidly hard races.

I also quoted Earth in the wrong thread, blegh.

GT Life will be terrible no matter how they change it up, because the RACING itself will not be fun.

Well, won't be as fun. At least for some of us.

Even as stupid as GT5's bots can be, I've been having a blast over the past year racing in Arcade Mode, in which the only reward is the racing. And course making, which I finally got around to exploring. GT5 is still a good racing experience - for me, a better one than I find in other racers. Give me those thousand cars and well designed tracks anyday.

 

[Samus]

Something like you describe was actually done in Forza 1 as a "drivatar," an idea I wish Polyphony would borrow from Turn 10, because I had a lot of fun with it, making a dream driver which I used to win some stupidly hard races.

Don't you always moan that Forza just copied GT? But if PD do it, it's cool with you?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think that could be a LOT of fun.

Instead of just running some hot laps yourself, get your friends to run some, too.

Yes, another way to expand on that would be the ability to use anyone's ghost as an AI generator. You could download the replay of the latest TT winner and use that to create an entire field of cars to race against for example. Or your friends...whatever.

 

[CayenneGT]

Yes, another way to expand on that would be the ability to use anyone's ghost as an AI generator. You could download the replay of the latest TT winner and use that to create an entire field of cars to race against for example. Or your friends...whatever.

I would play this all day, take some notes PD!!!

 

[Samus]

If it was that easy don't you think we'd have AI that can lap as fast as the Vettel or license test ghosts by now?

 

[Johnnypenso]

If it was that easy don't you think we'd have AI that can lap as fast as the Vettel or license test ghosts by now?

I think it is that easy. The game already uses a program to generate a lap time for any given car in any given race, and then another program to deal with you on the track. The only thing that would be different would be leaving the door open to substitute your replay info as the base lap with the same program for dealing with you on the track.

Being easy though doesn't mean it will get done. If PD/Kaz believe that the AI is fine as it is, they see no need to change anything and so they won't. They have to be aware of the need for change and believe in it, before anything gets done. I'm sure there's plenty of stuff they just think they know better about, and decide for us that we don't really want or need it.

 

[Samus]

I can see how that can be used to generate a fast AI but an intelligent one that can defend/attack? That can't be generated from a ghost and isn' something you can just 'tack on' to a fast AI car from a ghost.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I can see how that can be used to generate a fast AI but an intelligent one that can defend/attack? That can't be generated from a ghost and isn' something you can just 'tack on' to a fast AI car from a ghost.

Why not? Legal attacking and defending is mostly lane changes. I don't expect the AI to cut me off or anything, just move to a defending position entering a corner in the late laps, make a draft pass here and there, which should be easy to do, given that the draft effect is in the game and that I could program them to be the same speed as me. When they aren't attacking or defending they are just running laps, easy enough to do.

They already have this stuff programmed in, just with lousy cornering speeds and braking points. Not reinventing the wheel, just improving on what they are already doing.

 

[Exorcet]

You're oversimplifying it. If your method could work, then all PD would actually have to do is "turn up" the AI. Your recorded AI would stop working as soon as they left your racing line, meaning they probably wouldn't pass very well with the possible exception of straights. They also wouldn't be able to defend at all other than just ignoring you on corner entry/exit.

AI can't be recorded because it needs to react to unexpected things. This puts strain on PD when making the AI because they either need to make an AI that follows simple rules (what we seem to have now) but at the same time has no advantages or disadvantages against the player physics model or have the AI drive using the player physics model and basically "think" like a top class player does. Each has their own challenges.

 

[Ills1999]

Yes, another way to expand on that would be the ability to use anyone's ghost as an AI generator. You could download the replay of the latest TT winner and use that to create an entire field of cars to race against for example. Or your friends...whatever.

I would play this all day, take some notes PD!!!

Hear, hear

You're oversimplifying it. If your method could work, then all PD would actually have to do is "turn up" the AI. Your recorded AI would stop working as soon as they left your racing line, meaning they probably wouldn't pass very well with the possible exception of straights. They also wouldn't be able to defend at all other than just ignoring you on corner entry/exit.

AI can't be recorded because it needs to react to unexpected things. This puts strain on PD when making the AI because they either need to make an AI that follows simple rules (what we seem to have now) but at the same time has no advantages or disadvantages against the player physics model or have the AI drive using the player physics model and basically "think" like a top class player does. Each has their own challenges.

Proximity subroutine?

 

[Johnnypenso]

You're oversimplifying it. If your method could work, then all PD would actually have to do is "turn up" the AI. Your recorded AI would stop working as soon as they left your racing line, meaning they probably wouldn't pass very well with the possible exception of straights. They also wouldn't be able to defend at all other than just ignoring you on corner entry/exit.

AI can't be recorded because it needs to react to unexpected things. This puts strain on PD when making the AI because they either need to make an AI that follows simple rules (what we seem to have now) but at the same time has no advantages or disadvantages against the player physics model or have the AI drive using the player physics model and basically "think" like a top class player does. Each has their own challenges.

I don't think so. They already have preset laps for the AI and a way for the AI to interact with you. The current AI runs around on the racing line but then gets pushed off it when you are there and it handles it fine. It's only a matter of subbing one preset lap for another, the rest can be improved, but even if it stays the same it's a dramatic improvement over what you have now.

 

[Tenacious D]

Don't you always moan that Forza just copied GT? But if PD do it, it's cool with you?

PD toyed with experience points and that was a flop and a half. They might as well lift something worthwhile from the dark side.

Anyway, JohnnyP's idea is certainly doable, but it requires some careful programming. There isn't a fine line between aggressive and obnoxious, but coding that bot intelligence has to be handled with finesse or you end up with a certain game's bash bots.

 

[Exorcet]

I don't think so. They already have preset laps for the AI and a way for the AI to interact with you. The current AI runs around on the racing line but then gets pushed off it when you are there and it handles it fine. It's only a matter of subbing one preset lap for another, the rest can be improved, but even if it stays the same it's a dramatic improvement over what you have now.

The AI follows the racing line, but it's not like a recording (which would be a ghost replay). It's probably following a few waypoints and using some kind of logic between those waypoints. It is "thinking" all the time.

And even if you made them ultra fast on the line, that wouldn't allow them to pass or defend properly. Pack driving, which is one of the reasons to want faster AI, would completely destroy the method you're proposing.

 

[daus26]

Yeah, fast A.I and intelligent A.I. are two different things. That's all I have to say.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The AI follows the racing line, but it's not like a recording (which would be a ghost replay). It's probably following a few waypoints and using some kind of logic between those waypoints. It is "thinking" all the time.

And even if you made them ultra fast on the line, that wouldn't allow them to pass or defend properly. Pack driving, which is one of the reasons to want faster AI, would completely destroy the method you're proposing.

Assuming this is true, why could it not then just use my hotlap to determine these same waypoints and time between them? My beef with the AI isn't that it isn't perfect, it's that it's pace for any given race is way off of mine. If I drop Xpp we can run the same laptime, but they are much faster in a straight line and much slower through the corners.

Leave everything the same as it is now, just make the pace match mine. I don't see why that can't be done using my ghost replay to determine the time between the way points, and throwing in whatever programming they have now for passing and defending.

 

[Exorcet]

You could set the waypoints using your ghost, but not the time between them. The AI figures out the best way to get from A to B. If it did not try to figure it out on its own, it would just ram through anything in the way (or ignore the fact that it has worn tires, or is lighter because of burnt fuel).

 

[Johnnypenso]

You lost me somewhere. All I want is an AI that does exactly what it does now, but on a pace that's similar to mine in a straightline and in the corners. I don't see that as being that difficult. I don't expect the AI to act as a human would, nor to be real creative. All it has to do is be close to my speed at most points on the track.

 

[Samus]

But what is the point of that? That isn't AI, it's just A.

 

[CayenneGT]

This is getting a little out of hand hahaha

 

[Exorcet]

You lost me somewhere. All I want is an AI that does exactly what it does now, but on a pace that's similar to mine in a straightline and in the corners. I don't see that as being that difficult. I don't expect the AI to act as a human would, nor to be real creative. All it has to do is be close to my speed at most points on the track.

It's not that simple.

As Simon says, what you want takes away the AI. It would work if we wanted to race ghosts (including driving right through them), but not if we want actual racing.

If you want racing, the AI needs to act human to some degree right? It doesn't need to be Einstein, but it needs to have the ability to react to what is going on around it. The AI also needs the same limitations as humans, or something very close. We can't have the AI pulling 6 g in the corner on comfort tires or driving through walls. This means that the AI cars need to be included in the physics engine. If the cars need to be included in the physics engine, they can't run scripted behavior because such behavior is not controlled by the physics engine.

You have to choose. Either you exactly control how the AI drives, in which case it cannot race, but only do laps, or you choose how smart to make the AI and from there, the lap times are determined.

 

[Ills1999]

But what is the point of that? That isn't AI, it's just A.

It's not really AI now. I pointed that out earlier and you responded with the fact that other titles have better comp. "drivers" than GT.

This is probably true, I won't contest that point.

What I will say is that those other games have better code governing the actions of the computer controlled cars.

There is no such thing as AI on a console or even a home computer.

It's something that the supercomputers of the world still haven't achieved.


Which is a relief to my way of thinking, btw.

 

[Tenacious D]

If you want racing, the AI needs to act human to some degree right? It doesn't need to be Einstein, but it needs to have the ability to react to what is going on around it.

This is exactly what many of us have been asking for. Some like Earth have gone so far as to state that GT6 will be practically worthless as a racer unless PD is able to instill a serious dose of actual racing essence in it. That you feel like you're in a race, a serious race, and if you don't do your best, don't expect to get anywhere. At least on hard difficulty levels.

I won't go quite that far, but I agree with these guys who want to feel like they're in a race, you'd better take it seriously, and there may be consequences even if you do your utmost. Bot A.I. is a big part of that. I went so far as to detail the seven aspects of a racer's personality several years ago, and I really should dig that post up or re-write it for this discussion.

It seems that in GT5, the A.I. is sort of there, but then get's lost in the Cell resource shuffle. I honked at a bot a day ago when I was tailgating it, and it reacted, getting out of the way. They rarely do that though. One turn, they seem fully aware of you, then the next they seem to have forgotten you're there. Or they decide all of a sudden that they HAVE to pass you and bump or ram you in their haste to get by.

A factor I'm not sure many have caught is that the bots brake the same way they have since GT1, by slamming and pumping the brakes rather than applying them smoothly as they do the gas pedal. This clunky behavior indicates that the old A.I. code is still a part of their digital genes. PD needs to hire a real genius of an A.I. coder who can write tight, concise, humanlike routines, and that's no small order because I have yet to be impressed with any game's bots. Forza does come close, but they're still way too rowdy and overly aggressive to me.

Faster bots which race consistently and don't wimp out when you get ten car lengths ahead of them would be a big help. But I'm hoping that PD can work some sort of magic with a gifted coder to instill those bots with a little life and passion.

 

[CayenneGT]

I just don't want them braking early anymore!!!

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[GTV0819]

PD obviously should add more but GT5 GT Mode is acceptable for me since it is organized unlike some other racing games that has a similar mode.

 

[Chippy569]

I play racing games to experience cars, not to pretend I'm some hotshot racing driver. For me, a "career" I need to progress through is just holding me back from having the experiences I want. I rather preferred the gt5 system of events that have a theme, within which is a collection of cars and tracks relevant to the theme. I can fire up the game, find a theme I like, and drive whatever fits my fancy. In that sense, gt5 as well as fm4 gels really well with me, and appears fm5 is going further in that direction.

One thing I definitely can appreciate is the licensing system in gt. I wish the challenges were harder but then the ranking carried to online lobbies, so I could say setup a custom match where only S-license all-gold could play or whatever. In theory it would mean only "serious" players would join the room and cut back on the crashers. In practice that probably wouldn't work so well, but hey.

 

[tpark103]

Whatever PD does let's hope it's not as easy to beat as it was in the last game. I somehow remember it GT being a little more involved. It felt as if there were games within the game. In gt5, I plowed through the entire title in a week or so then just because I could I started all over and did it again from 0-40.