GTRA | RSeat WSGTC S3 | Main Thread

[paulmac2k9]

Ok so theres 4 people who agree with our current numbers top 3 ballast is best (Like last season) but ofcourse we should wait for more opinions before making a decision .

 

[SuperSic]

Skill should not be penalized in any form of sport. In Motorsport, ballast penalties are used to equalize the performance of the cars, not the drivers. So if the cars are all equal, there shouldn't be any ballast penalties. I believe everyone agrees with this.

Now, in our case, i can see some form of subtle ballast penalties to be given in order to make the racing and championship standings more interesting but NOT with the extreme system that is proposed. My views are:

-If victory is to be penalized so heavily, then it should be rewarded accordingly. The current points system does not do that.

-When a driver misses a race, ballast should be removed, not remain intact. Even with dropping the worst results, missing a race still hurts your overall chances.

-Weight ballast is not affecting only pace, but tirewear too, and with the current(2.02) extreme tirewear system we have, the disadvantage of 100 kg, let alone 200kg is insane. I would rather drive a hovercraft.

-Qualifying should be done without ballast. Enforcing ballast can put the driver out of contention of the extra 3,2,1 points, which, with the current points system, are of great importance.

- Ballast enforced on the Finals is completely absurd. At that stage, all the drivers are winners or runner-ups of their division, and they should have no problem keeping the races interesting, if that's the case.


PS. On PURE JGTS, we are using a similar points/ballast system. I never raised any points there as i had neglected to check the system until after the first race of the season, and therefore it would be just rude to comment on a system that was already applied in Round 1.

 

[Litchi]

.: New Driver :.

Welcome to RodeRuner1967

# / PSN: #62 / T-n-T-2000
Conference: NTSC
Class: GT300
Car: RE Amemiya RX7 '06

He comes from the GTPFIA Omega GT Group. Glad to see you onboard ​

 

[Andil]

What Tony said, 101%

 

[MONSTAR-1]

Skill should not be penalized in any form of sport. In Motorsport, ballast penalties are used to equalize the performance of the cars, not the drivers. So if the cars are all equal, there shouldn't be any ballast penalties. I believe everyone agrees with this.

Now, in our case, i can see some form of subtle ballast penalties to be given in order to make the racing and championship standings more interesting but NOT with the extreme system that is proposed. My views are:

-If victory is to be penalized so heavily, then it should be rewarded accordingly. The current points system does not do that.

-When a driver misses a race, ballast should be removed, not remain intact. Even with dropping the worst results, missing a race still hurts your overall chances.

-Weight ballast is not affecting only pace, but tirewear too, and with the current(2.02) extreme tirewear system we have, the disadvantage of 100 kg, let alone 200kg is insane. I would rather drive a hovercraft.

-Qualifying should be done without ballast. Enforcing ballast can put the driver out of contention of the extra 3,2,1 points, which, with the current points system, are of great importance.

- Ballast enforced on the Finals is completely absurd. At that stage, all the drivers are winners or runner-ups of their division, and they should have no problem keeping the races interesting, if that's the case.

PS. On PURE JGTS, we are using a similar points/ballast system. I never raised any points there as i had neglected to check the system until after the first race of the season, and therefore it would be just rude to comment on a system that was already applied in Round 1.

Agreed %100. Especially as there has been no testing with the ballast. We could have done it with the 5 pre races but it has only been raised 5 days before the season. To little to late.

 

[Litchi]

-If victory is to be penalized so heavily, then it should be rewarded accordingly. The current points system does not do that.

I agree, maximum of 200kg ballast seems too much and 60kg for the 1st in feature race is too much also.

-When a driver misses a race, ballast should be removed, not remain intact. Even with dropping the worst results, missing a race still hurts your overall chances.

i.e. : if a driver has accumulated 120kg ballast (= (i.e.) 3 consecutive rounds won) and then missing a race, he could be removed 80kg (= 2 wins). But not all his ballast. no?

-Weight ballast is not affecting only pace, but tirewear too, and with the current(2.02) extreme tirewear system we have, the disadvantage of 100 kg, let alone 200kg is insane. I would rather drive a hovercraft.

Yea, considering the tirewear effect since the 2.02, I think that is unfair to give a maximum of 200kg ballast.

-Qualifying should be done without ballast. Enforcing ballast can put the driver out of contention of the extra 3,2,1 points, which, with the current points system, are of great importance.

Yea, there are no bonus point for qualification in PURE JGTS so we can run the Quali with ballast, it's not a problem. But in WSGTC, bonus point for Quali has an importance so I think it would be more fair to run quali without ballast.



So, finally, considering the very good arguments for Tony and keeping still a ballast system (because it is a custom in wsgtc ..) I propose this:

Ballast only for the podium (1st, 2nd and 3rd place) of feature race.
No ballast added for podium in sprint race
Values: 1st-40kg, 2nd-20kg, 3rd-10kg with a maximum of 140kg
If you finish 4th or more in the next race, you can remove 10kg

thoughts?

PS: the ballast system have to be simple.

 

[Andil]

Love it, Litchi. That works. 👍

My main issue, which Tony kindly raised for me, was that last season ballast stayed on the car even if you missed a round (i.e. you 'technically' didn't finish outside the Top 3, so no ballast was removed) - it makes sense to remove 10kg if you finish outside the Top 3, whether you were racing or not - because you lose a dropped round anyway, there's no benefit to not showing up.

With bonus points involved in qualifying, it makes sense to not use ballast - and after all, the race is long. It makes no difference if someone is on pole with 100kg or is on the fourth row with 100kg, his race pace is still the same, so your chance of victory remains just as great.

 

[sandwiches]

Ya a max ballast of 200kgs is a bit much to be carrying around a race event. The whole thing litchi said of a max of 140kgs sounds alot better with 1st 40kg 2nd 20kgs 3rd 10kgs.

 

[Sail IC]

Even if Tony's post would be the fairest from a pure competion view, I do like the idea of having a ballast penalty system to create closer racing. I think most of us do this because to have fun, and close racing between as many drivers as possible is more fun. But we also want to do well in the result so there is a limit to how much we want to penalize driver skill.

So to me it becomes a question of striking the right balance between enabling closer racing, whilst still rewarding driver skills.

My input to Litchi's proposal.

Values: 1st-40kg, 2nd-20kg, 3rd-10kg
I don't see the point of having an extra penalty for winning, but the ballast should be for even up the field for the next race. I rather go for one of the two below.
- Values: 1st-30kg, 2nd-20kg, 3rd-10kg
- Values: 1st-40kg, 2nd-30kg, 3rd-20kg, 4th-10Kg

If you finish 4th or more in the next race, you can remove 10kg
This actually creates a 20kg swing if you finish 3rd vs 4th. I propose that you have to finish 5th or more in order to remove 10kg (or 6th in the case of top-4 recieving ballast penalty)

Ballast should only be calculated on the result in the feature race. Nothing else. Simplify things if nothing else.

Qualy should be without ballast. Ballast is to create closer and more fun racing. We still want to reward driving skill, and this gives an opportunity to do so without sacrificing anything on enabling closer racing.

Now to the hard part. What is an appropriate ballast ceiling. In my quick test it seems like every 10kg adds about 0.1sec to total laptime. 200kg would be 2sec. That is a lot. Maybe even 1.4sec (140kg) is too much. Before setting the final number, you might want to test it on GT500 and GT300. Given the low power-to-grip of the GT300 vs. the GT500 they probably should be different to give the same lap time penalty effect. My guess is that the GT500 is a little less sensitive to ballast than the GT300. Just my gut feel.

So rather than talk ballast, the right question should be: What is the max time penalty per lap we want to have in order to create closer racing but not give too much handicap. To start the discussion, I propose one second per lap.

 

[Scanny_Flick]

Firstly, success ballast is used very successfully (pun not intended) in a number of real life championships, whether that success is down to the car or the driver is irrelevant IMO, it's a success penalty. Yes regs and specs are supposed to equalise but a ballast system is an added fine tune.

Regarding the ballast limit, I've had a number of discussions on this in the past. The way I see it is that if xxkg is too much (for whatever reason, tyre wear or general pace) then you more than likely won't ever get there. Each driver will only ever reach the amount that they can carry whilst remaining competitive, as soon as it becomes too much for you you will end up losing some for the next race. Obviously this theoretical limit will be different for each driver but to say oh well we can't have the limit at 200kg because that's just too much seems a bit silly to me and defeats the purpose of the system.

Finally qualifying. Ok, running with ballast in qualifying may only mean that driver A qualifies 4th instead of on pole (which in itself doesn't make much difference once we get into a long race) but it may also mean the difference between someone qualifying outside the top 6 and as a result outside of D1 (on a mixed class round) completely which is significant. The system reflects success and is a measure of someone's pace whether it be during qualifying or during a race. The fact that bonus points are awarded for qualifying makes no difference IMO, in fact that's all the more reason to run with ballast.

We either run the system properly or don't run it at all, not pick and choose where it is used and where it isn't and pick artificial limits, it will sort itself out, that's the point of it.

I do agree that top 3 points structure should be looked at to make it better reflect the awarding of ballast however.

 

[GV27]

I agree with Scanny so much here.

Also Will, in PURE JGTS there ARE qualifying points. 3 for pole, 2 for 2nd place, and 1 for 3rd!

I think a good ballast system could be:

1st: +40kg
2nd: +20kg
3rd: +10kg
4th: No ballast removal
5th to 10th: -10kg
11th or worse: -20kg

 

[Sail IC]

Firstly, success ballast is used very successfully (pun not intended) in a number of real life championships, whether that success is down to the car or the driver is irrelevant IMO, it's a success penalty. Yes regs and specs are supposed to equalise but a ballast system is an added fine tune.

I have to disagree to you here. Car based ballast system enables the drivers in a less competitive car to finish better. This further equalizes the cars upon general regulations and promotes to reward individual driver performace. This is stark contrast to what an individual driver ballast system accomplish.

But I think we're jumping ahead a little now and I like to ask the following question.

What is the objective with the Ballast System?
- Is it to as much as possible give every driver an equal chance to win the championship regardless of skill.
- If its something else, we first need to articulate it and then create the solution

Just so you don't get me wrong, I'm for a ballast system. I think its a great idea. I like it to create closer racing between more drivers, but it can also go too far IMO.

 

[paulmac2k9]

Yup GV was about to say that in Pure JGTS we have bonus points for qualifing and the way I look it should be unlimited like Skanny says because if 140-200kgs is too much ballast youll never get there and it will come off.(Except if your Tony )

Also I think we should use ballast in qualifing like Pure JGTS. The chances are that most of us will barely get past 100kgs anyway.

Also I like Litchis proposed ballast for 1st - 3rd (1st 40, 2nd 20, 3rd 10).

 

[Litchi]

Also Will, in PURE JGTS there ARE qualifying points. 3 for pole, 2 for 2nd place, and 1 for 3rd!

oups, didn't knew that. Maybe cause i'm not often in a good place for Q

 

[paulmac2k9]

So Litchi you maybe re concidering ballast in qualifing? (Need I say that the real SGTs do in real life )

Also im pretty sure Masi said he wanted to use ballast in qualifing in the pre season discussion, I may be wrong though.

 

[Scanny_Flick]

I have to disagree to you here. Car based ballast system enables the drivers in a less competitive car to finish better. This further equalizes the cars upon general regulations and promotes to reward individual driver performace. This is stark contrast to what an individual driver ballast system accomplish.

But I think we're jumping ahead a little now and I like to ask the following question.

What is the objective with the Ballast System?
- Is it to as much as possible give every driver an equal chance to win the championship regardless of skill.
- If its something else, we first need to articulate it and then create the solution

No I don't think it should (or even can) be used to give every driver an equal chance to win regardless of skill.

You have already seen in your tests Johan that the penalty is around 0.1 secs per 10kg giving us a max possible penalty of approx 2 secs (very unlikely that this will even be reached). The field spreads are greater than 2 secs so it can't help everyone regardless of skill. Even if the field was split by less than 2 secs all this would do is reduce the amount of ballast drivers are liable to accumulate and make it even more unlikely that anyone would get anywhere the ballast limit.

What it is implemented to do is to make the front of the field as competitive as possible and prevent any single person dominating and running away with it within half a season. Whether this increased competitiveness at the sharp end encompasses 3, 6, or even 9 drivers is dependent on the spread of pace that we have to begin with (the more drivers it brings into play the less ballast will be accumulated).

All I'm saying is that the system will achieve this, no one will be hard done by as by default that can't happen, the system is self regulating. There is no need for an artificial max limit (there's no need for a limit at all really but obviously the game has one) and to work 100% correctly it should be used in both quali and races.

 

[paulmac2k9]

Skanny I went through the discussion thread to find your basically repeating yourself which in the discussion thread it seems your arguement won and Masi said ballast will be used in qualifing as did a few others.

Do not forget that ballast will be used during quali as well.

So if it was decided way back then why the hell are we re opening the case again .

 

[twistedfirework]

this is my proposal.
ballast to used for qualifying.
last seasons ballast amounts to be retained.
no max on the ammount a car can carry, other than the limits of the game.
in the dual heat rounds, ballast will be awarded to the 3 highest points totals + ties, including bonus points.
gt500 ballast penalty's
1st - 60kg
2nd - 40kg
3rd - 20kg

if tied for 1st 50kg each, if ties for second 30kg, ties for 3rd 20kg ( dual heat rounds).

gt300 ballast penalty's
1st - 50kg
2nd - 30kg
3rd - 10kg

if tied for 1st 40kg each, if tied for 2nd 20kg each, ties for 3rd 10kg each ( dual heat rounds)

anyone finishing out of the top 3 or missing a race will have 20kg ballast removed.

last season's system worked in my opinion.

to offset this, i propose to run the end of season championship without any ballast.

please dont pick out the points you like or dislike.
judge it on the whole.
yes or no?

 

[Scanny_Flick]

this is my proposal.
ballast to used for qualifying.
last seasons ballast amounts to be retained.
no max on the ammount a car can carry, other than the limits of the game.
in the dual heat rounds, ballast will be awarded to the 3 highest points totals + ties, including bonus points.
gt500 ballast penalty's
1st - 60kg
2nd - 40kg
3rd - 20kg

if tied for 1st 50kg each, if ties for second 30kg, ties for 3rd 20kg ( dual heat rounds).

gt300 ballast penalty's
1st - 50kg
2nd - 30kg
3rd - 10kg

if tied for 1st 40kg each, if tied for 2nd 20kg each, ties for 3rd 10kg each ( dual heat rounds)

anyone finishing out of the top 3 or missing a race will have 20kg ballast removed.

last season's system worked in my opinion.

to offset this, i propose to run the end of season championship without any ballast.

please dont pick out the points you like or dislike.
judge it on the whole.
yes or no?

Spot on for me 👍

 

[paulmac2k9]

Perfect Twisted 👍.

 

[twistedfirework]

I will be interested to see if moleman , tony and Johan vote yes or no?

 

[NEPALII]

Twisted, there has to be a limit on the amount of ballast you can carry and there has to be a higher amount of ballast removed when missing a certain position or a race. Tire wear is crap in the game, and tires wear out quick so a car with 200kg of ballast(max allowed by game) will have NO chance AT ALL to compete with the top spots. Then there is the problem of losing all of that ballast. Below 3rd only removes 20kg? So when are you going to be able to remove all of your ballast? If you eventually reach the 200kg, which is an insane amount, it will take forever to remove it.

GT300's weight varies a lot from 1050kg to 1125kg(i think the garayia is 1175kg, not sure). If you are applying these amounts of ballast, a car will have almost 1400kg, Im sorry but that isnt a race car in my opinion. It's too much. Specially cars in the 300HP range. Make the ballast system less extreme. A limit of, let's say, 100kg, and removal of 30, 40 or more kg if you miss top 3. It's a good system, just exaggerated in my opinion.

 

[twistedfirework]

To get to 200kg of ballast in the gt300's, means that you are winning a race carrying 150kg. Or finishing 3rd carrying 190kg. Last season carrying large amounts of ballast aderrrm and moleman were still gaining podiums or even winning.
Thus system works. You will never get saddled with too much ballast to be competitive. To keep adding weight, you will have to keep finishing in the top 3

 

[IforceV8]

Perhaps the new speed test track would be useful to see the effect the ballast has on each Gt300?I suspect that 40 kg would not be the same in the RX7 compared to the Subaru based on the torque figures.

 

[NEPALII]

Perhaps the new speed test track would be useful to see the effect the ballast has on each Gt300?I suspect that 40 kg would not be the same in the RX7 compared to the Subaru based on the torque figures.

Yep, not to mention the differences in weight of each car. The Celica has only 1050kg, while the Garayia has 1125KG or 1175KG(forgot). GT500s are easier has they only have a difference of 80kg between the lightest and heaviest car.

 

[twistedfirework]

When we were setting the car specs, 1 remit we had was not to use ballast, so we can utilise the full 200kg for ballast penalty's. In my opinion, it's more to do with how much we add per race, not the total amount.

 

[Sail IC]

I will be interested to see if moleman , tony and Johan vote yes or no?

LOL --- Humor is always good to lessen the tension in a potentially heated discussion. Good stuff.

I made my arguments, and I think the ballast penalization system by the proposal will have way too strong impact on the racing. Having said that, I take whatever will be decided and will try to use it to my advantage. The way it looks, it will certainly be cases when doing "a Prost" (nick name "the professor") will make a lot of sense.

 

[SuperSic]

I will be interested to see if moleman , tony and Johan vote yes or no?

You really expect me to answer with a yes or a no?

Read my previous post. My views on the matter are all there. Now you're the boss(es), the decision is yours to make.

 

[Scanny_Flick]

LOL --- Humor is always good to lessen the tension in a potentially heated discussion. Good stuff.

I made my arguments, and I think the ballast penalization system by the proposal will have way too strong impact on the racing. Having said that, I take whatever will be decided and will try to use it to my advantage. The way it looks, it will certainly be cases when doing "a Prost" (nick name "the professor") will make a lot of sense.

Nothing wrong with a bit of 'big picture' racing (Prost was my idol when I was 7 :-) )

In all seriousness though I don't think this system was in any way a detriment to the racing we had in s2, if it was I've yet to see a post from anyone to that effect.

As Paul said, it was duscussed in great detail, it worked, so why is it even up for discussion, especially this late in the day. I guess the fact that the OP had TBA against it didn't help!

 

[wishywish]

Any steward out there ?
I would like to qualify for Fuji