GTRA | RSeat WSGTC S3 | Main Thread

[CSLACR]

Just a question but why are the cars slower? And why aren't they made faster?

Physical limitations of the game. Make car A faster, car B needs an engine stage, now car C needs a turbo, etc.
WSGTC season 2 specs are much faster overall, but that makes it nearly impossible for cars like GTR's to win on high speed tracks, and impossible for cars like NSX's to win on tight tracks. The slower specs help even that out.

 

[NEPALII]

Because the Motul needed better acceleration to equal the GTR's, and the best way to do that was give it a better power band, so by taking the oil change away from the other GTR's, they actually gained 3 HP while remaining a hair slower in acceleration. Makes them closer on all counts.
Since the GTR's were made a hair slower, some others needed to be a hair slower too.

Makes sense. Didnt know the oil change could affect powerband.

 

[CSLACR]

Car: Xanavi, Calsonic, Yellowhat GTR
HP: 480
WT: 1100
PP: 598
Mods: None
PL: 97.2%
Oil: No

Car: Motul GTR
HP: 487
WT: 1130
PP: 599
Mods: None
PL: 93.9%
Oil: Yes

 

[Sail IC]

I'm new to this racing league but I spent quite a lot of time in another league (GTforum.eu) setting car regulations. Some other new to this league (Nissman, Tony, Apollo) can attest to this.

My first input about a month ago, how its possible to cheat created some bad emotions. This was very unfortunate as my intentions was to help creating better regualtions. Not as it turned out, to make people confused, nervous, and maybe upset.

I'm going to take another stab now to give some inputs and I hope it will go better. The challange in setting car regualtions is to make cars with different strengths/weaknesses to be be equally competitive at the race tracks. To simplify, I like to divide the cars inteo three categories.

1, Allrounder cars -- GTR (benchmark) and Lexus:
The GTR and the Lexus are the most popular cars. I like to view the GTR as the benchmark car as its good on everything and then set regulations to make the other cars equally competitive. The GTR has excellent cornering and good acceletions and top speed. The Lexus performs similar but has more drag so it needs some more power to be equal.

2, Speed demons -- NSX, Supra Yellowhat
Compared to the GTR (benchmark) these cars does not corner as well but has excellent top speed.

3, Torque monsters -- Castrol Supra, Nissan Z
These are turbo cars, get a big torque hence acceleration, but they have a big drag and perhaps corner a little slower compared to the GTR.

The big challange can be simplified into the following. How to make the GTR and NSX to be equally competitive around the track. With it done, the other cars are much easier to make equal. The challange in a nutshell is that to more power you give the NSX to compensate for its inferior handling to the GTR you just increase the inherant strenght of the car (speed) without doing anything to its weakness (cornering).

But there is a solution. Current car regulation is based predomenty on HP and stipulate full downforce. If you instead use a regulation purely based on PP and set the PP low enough so the best configuration for the GTR is to not use full downforce you are actually making the cars more equal on the the track.

In summary. With a PP set at the correct level, the GTR will run with not full downforce to get a more HP where the NSX will run with full downforce to improve its cornering compared to the GTR. This way, both cars will perform much more equal around the track. the GTR not running full downforce will not have such superior handling to the NSX, and the NSX will not have such superior top speed to the GTR. They are now much more equal.

There are some other benefits with a car regualtions purely based on PP.
- Very simple regualtions. Just comply the the PP and you're fine
- Watertight regulations with no possibility the cheat.
- Downforce tuning comes into play. In real racing, they don't use full downforce all the time.

If this post is confusing and detrimental to moving forward, just send me a PM and I delete it.

 

[SuperSic]

Nice input Johan. I agree.

 

[twistedfirework]

I also agree 100%

 

[xStretch-]

Totally agree with Johan

I'm down for whatever regs but I think the idea stated above works well

 

[Niss]

That was a awesome piece of input Sail IC

 

[OK8]

I'm with Sail IC

 

[Andil]

Maybe missing something, and I'm not a regular GT500 driver by any means, but what stops a GTR driver at say, Monaco or Laguna Seca, setting their downforce level to full, where less power doesn't matter anyway?

Are you saying that the 'best' (what does this mean?) configuration for a GTR at a certain PP level would be to run minimum downforce and maximum power? "Minimum" and "Maximum" only used for arguments sake, obviously it won't necessarily be literally min/max. Certainly I've always found that max downforce means a quicker laptime, even if you have to compensate drastically on power as a result. Even at fast circuits like Monza, the time you gain through the corners easily makes up for it, I can't see how this would be any different?

I could understand that perhaps the 'best' configuration for a GTR would be to run high power and low downforce at x PP level, at circuits like Monza or perhaps Spa, but the 'best' for most circuits? I'm not so convinced. That said, I'm not a GT500 driver so I don't really care on the whole as it doesn't affect me, but just raising the point. Maybe it's already been thought about during your testing, in fact I'm sure it has. I think we're all for ensuring a level playing field, and if this helps then great, but maybe it just needs explaining further to 'sell it' to me and perhaps others

 

[twistedfirework]

i think it would be good to choose between downforce and power, after all that is what happens in real life racing. the key for me is setting the right pp limit.
maybe 620 in gt500 and 550 in gt300 as a starting point. although it may mean each car having its own pp level. then instead of ballast penaltys for a podium, we could use pp point penaltys. i think this could really work.
maybe try it in a pre season race?

 

[Sail IC]

Here are some more info and answers.

First let me eco what Stretchy wrote ..... Whatever the regualtions ends up to be, I'm really looking forward to the racing.

Andil,
In the GT5, at slow tracks with a lot of corners, to my findings it works a little different than in real life. Monaco is clearly a high downforce track in real life. But in real life, cars has the same power/acceleration regardless of downforce. In GT5, the drag is consistent regardless of downforce (same topspeed). Instead, as you increase downforce the car gets less power at the same PP hence at high downforce the car will get lousy acceleration. At tracks like Monaco you still need strong acceleration, so the fastest confirguration will not be full downforce.

Setting a PP where the GTR will do best at medium downforce is lower than many people would like. This is a bit complicated but I'm going to try to explain how I see it.

If you take some GT500 cars and set them up with the same HP/Weight/PP. This example is using 485HP/1100Kg/590PP you will get the following downforce:
- Calsonic GT-R 35/44
- Lexus Petronas 35/48
- Takata NSX 35/58
- Woodone GT-R 35/62
- Lexus Enos 35/63

The GTR has the best chassies and get the lowest downforce to compensate for its superior chassies. The problem arises when going into very high power levels which I like to think of as high power the chassies can take, the "max power" level. Then increasing the power will lead to very little improvement in lap times.

Cars like the NSX has a lower "max power" level than the GTR. you can do the following test. Take an NSX and run it at a average track like Suzuka. Use max downforce with RH tires and run it at 590PP, 600PP, and 610PP. You will find that the laptime will improve going from 590-600PP but not improve much going from 600-610PP. Then do the same thing with the GTR and you will find that the laptime will continue to improve when going from 600-610PP. The GTR has a much higher "max power" level than the NSX. This is in a nutshell why the GTR is the best car at the rather high power levels we normally race at.

Without having tested it, my gut feeling would be that the right power levels for the GT500 cars will be
- 590PP if we use RS tires
- 595PP if we use RM tires
- 600PP if we use RS tires

 

[NEPALII]

I have found using full downforce quicker at any track in GT5. I know it shouldn't be like this, but that's how GT5 is. The top speed is barely changed when downforce changes, so might as well go for the best cornering option. This is just from what I experience. I like your input Sail, its well thought but it needs testing. I don't trust GT5's physics so well, and neither should anyone.

 

[twistedfirework]

I think the point is that if you use pp, to increase downforce you will either have to add weight or reduce power. Making it as close to real life as possible.

 

[Sail IC]

I think the point is that if you use pp, to increase downforce you will either have to add weight or reduce power. Making it as close to real life as possible.

Correct. If there is no regulation "penalty" to add downforce, full downforce will be the fastest at all tracks. But if you tune to fixed PP, adding downforce will force you to reduce power making the car slower. Given that's the way GT5 have implemented drag of increased downforce, this becomes much more realistic.

If we like and elect to go the PP route, below might be a good way to determin the general PP level.

The current regulation states 599PP for a GTR with RH tires full downforce which gives 477HP. Lets propose we pick 595PP with RM tires instead. Rather than reduce power to get to 595PP reduce downforce, ie still have 477hp, I think we will end up with a car that has a similar driving experience. Less downforce but grippier tire.

Furthermore, it probably will make sense to reduce downforce a bit more, get a bit more HP, and the laptime will improve slightly. For the NSX which has higher speed, you will rather than reduce downforce reduce HP. The result will be that compared to having all cars using full downforce, the GTR straightline speed will get closer to the NSX, and the NSX cornering ability will get closer to the GTR. The GTR will become a little trickier to drive and the NSX will become a little easier to drive compared to 599PP with RH tires. I think that's good too.

CSL,

I think you are responsible for setting the car regulations. I seen many posts from you and you have a great understanding of the GT5 game and car tuning. I don't want to intrude on your territory, but if you and people like this approach, I wouldn't mind to teem up with you to figure out what would be the PP level and the different individual car PP to make them hopefully equally competitive on the race tracks.

 

[Masi_23]

Car Choice is now Live. Prefer to the Qualifier Thread for more info.

 

[CSLACR]

Summary on my thoughts on SailIC's posts/ideas.

Firstly, I think it's a great concept, and I'm personally 100% in favor of it provided it works, not that I doubt his testing, I just like to see everything for myself, just the way I'm wired. (Of course it can work though, the only question is what PP for each car, etc)

Now you're wondering why I gave these listings, if I'm actually in favor of a simple set PP limit.
Simplicity, I feared/fear of all the complaints of "I don't know how to set up my car", and/or "I don't have enough time to practice and tune my car each week".

If a bulk of people can say they're ok with an open PP setting regulation for each car, I am absolutely game for it, I think it would change the regs only for the better.
The only downside is whether people are ok with having to set their car up each week, so if that's not an issue, I am definitely up for setting open PP regs for each car.

Need input quickly though, season is coming up soon.

 

[MaccGyver]

I agree with Johan the best way to balance cars is to go with pp's and it's bullet proof, can't cheat.
Allthough I would like to keep racing hard tyres, I have had enough grip racing in GT500's, need a change

 

[CSLACR]

Definatley the best way to balance cars is to go with pp's

Agreed 100%.
My only question is if most people see it the same way, and how much complaining/whining/quitting will occur from people that feel greatly disadvantaged by a lack of knowledge/time/practice, etc.

Maybe I'm over thinking it, and should just go the route which is best, meaning open PP tuning regulations?

 

[paulmac2k9]

I think its too late now, maybe this could be for S4 but I think we should stick with whats been tested over a number of weeks/months.

 

[CSLACR]

I think its too late now, maybe this could be for S4 but I think we should stick with whats been tested over a number of weeks/months.

Not to sound cocky, but I can crank out a new set of specs for these cars in a day or two. I know all of them better then the back of my hand by now.

Plus SailIC has baseline specs that could be tested to start from.

 

[twistedfirework]

Summary on my thoughts on SailIC's posts/ideas.

Firstly, I think it's a great concept, and I'm personally 100% in favor of it provided it works, not that I doubt his testing, I just like to see everything for myself, just the way I'm wired. (Of course it can work though, the only question is what PP for each car, etc)

Now you're wondering why I gave these listings, if I'm actually in favor of a simple set PP limit.
Simplicity, I feared/fear of all the complaints of "I don't know how to set up my car", and/or "I don't have enough time to practice and tune my car each week".

If a bulk of people can say they're ok with an open PP setting regulation for each car, I am absolutely game for it, I think it would change the regs only for the better.
The only downside is whether people are ok with having to set their car up each week, so if that's not an issue, I am definitely up for setting open PP regs for each car.

Need input quickly though, season is coming up soon.

i think if people arent prepared to spend some time setting up there car, then they are probably in the wrong league. in fairness to everyone though it needs to be dorted pretty quickly. maybe set up a few practice races using the pp system to see hiw it goes. we already have each drivers data at suzuku using the same car, so it should be pretty simple to work out. for example if i am clocking the same times as litchi, we will know the pp of the two cars needs changing. i hope this makes sense

 

[CSLACR]

I agree, and it can be sorted very quickly, I PM'd SailIC for the PP specs he mentioned, but if someone else that knows them can let me know what they are faster, I can try them out faster.

 

[Masi_23]

Primary tester for GT300, Aderrrm, has quit the league (caught the iRacing bug).

I need a consistent driver (capable tuner) that will stand as the lead tester. Please PM me if you are willing to help out.

Preseason Races will be planned this Friday and Saturday. Official start of the season is tentative (January 13 or January 20).

 

[harrison1476]

So.... is there 2 div"s for NTSC GT500?

 

[Masi_23]

There is only 1 division of 16 drivers.

We can expand to 2 divisions but only top 16 will receive points. If we get more people to sign-up and do the supplemental qualifier, filling the 120 pool in the process (before the start of the season), then we can overhaul the points system to award more positions than just the top 16.

 

[harrison1476]

So... I'm not racing? Because I wasn't top 16

 

[NEPALII]

If I'm not mistaken, qualifying will be during the week and anyone can qualify. Only the top 16 on qualifying get to race. I think that's how it's going to work.

 

[harrison1476]

Oh ok. Are we using our super gt cars?

 

[CSLACR]

Oh ok. Are we using our super gt cars?

Yes, qualifying for each race will be run with your car you use for the season.
Don't fret, people will miss races, qualify badly, etc. You'll definitely have opportunities to race.