I'm Done Trying Hard

[Danoff]

What good is a raise when you only get half of it? What good is overtime pay when it's taxed so much?

Every dollar I get more than what I'm currently earning is taxed in the highest tax brackets that I'm in. The result? When I work overtime, it isn't worth it. If I got a HUGE raise it wouldn't make all that much difference.

So I'm not going to try to get promoted. I'm not going to try to work overtime, and I'm not going to care how good a job I do. I'll just try not to get fired.

 

[PS]

Man, Brian's gonna be pissed about that.

 

[Danoff]

Just thinking about my potential... The highest paid guy where I work probably makes three times what I do.

I'll never be able to acheive that because I don't want that kind of responsibility (personal choice), so let's pretend I could double my salary after a lifetime of working here (or anywhere in engineering). That would only actually be an additional 50% due to taxes. But I'll probably get an additional 25% if I do a fairly average job.

So do I care about an extra quarter of what I make now? Not that much. Not enough to bust my ass for 30 years.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Man, Brian's gonna be pissed about that.

That's right, Greg!

What good is a raise when you only get half of it? What good is overtime pay when it's taxed so much?

I didn't hear you mention anything about inflation. Ok, so 3% in comparison to 33% -- it's virtually unnoticable -- to someone like you who has a job. What about the person who is not so fortunate... whose savings or fixed income is destroyed by inflation?

If you have the opportunity to get more money, just do it -- regardless of taxes.

 

[Danoff]

I didn't hear you mention anything about inflation. Ok, so 3% in comparison to 33% -- it's virtually unnoticable -- to someone like you who has a job. What about the person who is not so fortunate... whose savings or fixed income is destroyed by inflation?

Yea, inflation is bad. The government (or whatever monetary authority exists) has a responsibility to try to keep the value of the dollar roughly constant. (yet another example where government has done a terrible job)

If you have the opportunity to get more money, just do it -- regardless of taxes.

It's a cost/benefits situation Brian. I mean, you have to look at what it costs me to get a little extra money. Given the current tax system, it just doesn't seem worth it for me to try to get promoted and take on more responsibility.

Like I said, I don't think it's worth it for me to bust my ass for 30 years just to get an extra quarter of what I make right now in take home pay.

 

[Swift]

What good is a raise when you only get half of it? What good is overtime pay when it's taxed so much?

Every dollar I get more than what I'm currently earning is taxed in the highest tax brackets that I'm in. The result? When I work overtime, it isn't worth it. If I got a HUGE raise it wouldn't make all that much difference.

So I'm not going to try to get promoted. I'm not going to try to work overtime, and I'm not going to care how good a job I do. I'll just try not to get fired.

I agree with you except for teh last paragraph. Just doing enough not to get fired is what is holding a lot of people back in this country.

I get commision on students that graduate from my programs. It's taxed at about 37%. That's obsurd. It's like a penalty for being a successful single person. I'd much rather get the money and be forced to owe more later then to have to wait a year to get it back when they say "Oops, we didn't realize you weren't the CEO of Microsoft. here's some of the extra we took from you and we're not giving you any interest on it." Bleh.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Yea, inflation is bad.

Worse, even, than unemployment in my opinion.

The government (or whatever monetary authority exists) has a responsibility to try to keep the value of the dollar roughly constant. (yet another example where government has done a terrible job)

I agree. It is part of the government's responsibility to control inflation.

It's a cost/benefits situation Brian.

True.

I mean, you have to look at what it costs me to get a little extra money. Given the current tax system, it just doesn't seem worth it for me to try to get promoted and take on more responsibility.

Perhaps... even in the long term? Assuming a 3% inflation rate over the next 10 years, that's what it would have cost you (more or less) in one year's worth of taxation. Yeah, OK, I guess your right... but there has to be a break even point somewhere. Did it really come out to 30 years? Meaning you would have to work 35+ years in order to get the full benefits of working overtime?

Like I said, I don't think it's worth it for me to bust my ass for 30 years just to get an extra quarter of what I make right now in take home pay.

Yeah, I guess. Or you could look at it another way. The extra 1/4 is your hedge against inflation.

I get commision on students that graduate from my programs. It's taxed at about 37%. That's obsurd. It's like a penalty for being a successful single person. I'd much rather get the money and be forced to owe more later then to have to wait a year to get it back when they say "Oops, we didn't realize you weren't the CEO of Microsoft. here's some of the extra we took from you and we're not giving you any interest on it." Bleh.

That is annoying, but you too can look at it another way. Think of it as insurance.

 

[Danoff]

Worse, even, than unemployment in my opinion.

Not in the opinion of the unemployed. I can almost guarantee that they care less about inflation than they do about the lack of income.

Perhaps... even in the long term? Assuming a 3% inflation rate over the next 10 years, that's what it would have cost you (more or less) in one year's worth of taxation. Yeah, OK, I guess your right... but there has to be a break even point somewhere. Did it really come out to 30 years? Meaning you would have to work 35+ years in order to get the full benefits of working overtime?

That extra 25% of my income probably breaks even around 15-20 years. In other words I'd bust my butt to get that much if I could do it in less time.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Not in the opinion of the unemployed. I can almost guarantee that they care less about inflation than they do about the lack of income.

True. Both are equally devastating, but if prices are rising (i.e. fuel, food), inflation exacerbates a lack of income.

That extra 25% of my income probably breaks even around 15-20 years. In other words I'd bust my butt to get that much if I could do it in less time.

Yeah, that's not worth it... not worth it at all.

 

[Der Alta]

So let's take this back a notch.

What's the easiest way to get a raise? Quit. No, seriously. I'm one of the highest paid people in my company. In fact, for someone in the architecture profession, I make really good money. In fact, more than some people that have Masters degrees. In the previous firm that I worked at, there was an owner and an associate. In my new job, I currently make more than the assocaite was making, and I get perks like a company truck and company card to put all my gas and vehicle expenses on. (Gas alone is almost $3000 a year, nevermind the truck payment that I don't have to make)

So how did I get into this job? Simple, I have a damn good work ethic, put in the overtime, and always keep an eye out for the next best thing. I do the extra mile, and my boss knows it. I know what I'm worth and I look for it.

The days of staying with a firm for 30 years are long gone. The only person that stays with a firm for 30 years is the owner.

One of the firms that I worked for, landed a big job and doubled the size of their firm. A year later, I was watching what the owners were trying to land for new jobs and noted their success rate was rather slim. Hence, I started looking for the next thing. I exited the firm, took a pay raise, and about two weeks after that, the owners laid off almost half of the firm. There are still people looking for jobs.

Like I've said on many occasions, "Always have a back-up plan"

Danoff, why are you still there, if you have a clear understanding of your future? You know that if you stay, you'll barely get raises and you'll stay doing what you are doing now.

In your next interview, when the new employer asks "Why did you leave?" You can easily say "One thing I always do is keep an eye on how the firm grows and what the next project is. I could easily see that my future was exactly what I was doing, and I would never get the opportunities to expand my skills and Knowledge."

AO

 

[Danoff]

So let's take this back a notch.

What's the easiest way to get a raise? Quit. No, seriously. I'm one of the highest paid people in my company. In fact, for someone in the architecture profession, I make really good money. In fact, more than some people that have Masters degrees. In the previous firm that I worked at, there was an owner and an associate. In my new job, I currently make more than the assocaite was making, and I get perks like a company truck and company card to put all my gas and vehicle expenses on. (Gas alone is almost $3000 a year, nevermind the truck payment that I don't have to make)

So how did I get into this job? Simple, I have a damn good work ethic, put in the overtime, and always keep an eye out for the next best thing. I do the extra mile, and my boss knows it. I know what I'm worth and I look for it.

The days of staying with a firm for 30 years are long gone. The only person that stays with a firm for 30 years is the owner.

One of the firms that I worked for, landed a big job and doubled the size of their firm. A year later, I was watching what the owners were trying to land for new jobs and noted their success rate was rather slim. Hence, I started looking for the next thing. I exited the firm, took a pay raise, and about two weeks after that, the owners laid off almost half of the firm. There are still people looking for jobs.

Like I've said on many occasions, "Always have a back-up plan"

Danoff, why are you still there, if you have a clear understanding of your future? You know that if you stay, you'll barely get raises and you'll stay doing what you are doing now.

In your next interview, when the new employer asks "Why did you leave?" You can easily say "One thing I always do is keep an eye on how the firm grows and what the next project is. I could easily see that my future was exactly what I was doing, and I would never get the opportunities to expand my skills and Knowledge."

AO

In my line of work, everybody knows my current employer. My firm is the pinnacle employer for what I do. If I were to say that I'd be laughed right out of the interview. It is good advice, it just don't apply so much to me.

Let's say I do what you suggest. Let's say I risk my job, quit, go get a job with some other company, and come back to this one. I'll have ticked off a lot of people who wonder why I jerked around this company so much... and for what? A 5k/year pay increase? 10k? Is it worth it? How much is 10k to me? It's 5k after taxes. What would I have gotten as a raise if I hadn't done any of that stuff at all? Probably a decent portion of that 5k after taxes.

I'm just trying to be realisitic about what I can achieve. What do you think you can achieve in your line of work DA? Do you think you can double your salary by the time your retire? Triple? Maybe only add 50%? Take out half for taxes and tell me if it's worth it.

 

[Famine]

I'm about to buy a second house.

In 15 years' time, I'm retiring.

 

[Gil]

By quitting my last job, and taking on more mental responsibility, and less physical labor, I took about a $15K a year raise.
Yes, there are a lot of taxes. But you do get a lot of that money back. Instead of looking at it as "Uncle Sam giving me back the money he took w/o interest" look at it as a windfall that you weren't expecting.
It's all in your perspective. If you choose to look at it as a bad thing, then it will be a bad thing.
If you look at it as a good thing that controls your spending, then rewards you at the end of the year, you'll feel better about it.

 

[Danoff]

By quitting my last job, and taking on more mental responsibility, and less physical labor, I took about a $15K a year raise.
Yes, there are a lot of taxes. But you do get a lot of that money back. Instead of looking at it as "Uncle Sam giving me back the money he took w/o interest" look at it as a windfall that you weren't expecting.
It's all in your perspective. If you choose to look at it as a bad thing, then it will be a bad thing.
If you look at it as a good thing that controls your spending, then rewards you at the end of the year, you'll feel better about it.

Gil,

Sounds like a good promotion. 👍

I'm not talking about the delay between when I get paid and when I get a refund. I'm talking about what is never refunded.

I'm about to buy a second house.

In 15 years' time, I'm retiring.

Are you just showing off?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I'm about to buy a second house.

In 15 years' time, I'm retiring.

Congrats. You have a PM waiting for you.

I'm not talking about the delay between when I get paid and when I get a refund. I'm talking about what is never refunded.

It's your choice not to use certain government services, though...

 

[Famine]

Are you just showing off?

Absolutely!

I'm fortunate to be in a position where I have enough readies to make them work for themselves in a substantial manner. I've decided to invest in a second property, though I'm undecided what I'm going to do with it at the present time (two obvious options present themselves). It'll take a little work on our behalf, but from that point on, demand and the property market will take care of the rest.

Our own house has gained in value by some £15,000-£20,000 since we bought it 15 months ago - a return of pretty much 10%, though you'd have to remove our investments in it (~£7,000) and the difference between out mortgage payments and reduction in the mortgage level (~£3,000) from that for a truer figure.

 

[Danoff]

Absolutely!

I'm fortunate to be in a position where I have enough readies to make them work for themselves in a substantial manner. I've decided to invest in a second property, though I'm undecided what I'm going to do with it at the present time (two obvious options present themselves). It'll take a little work on our behalf, but from that point on, demand and the property market will take care of the rest.

Our own house has gained in value by some £15,000-£20,000 since we bought it 15 months ago - a return of pretty much 10%, though you'd have to remove our investments in it (~£7,000) and the difference between out mortgage payments and reduction in the mortgage level (~£3,000) from that for a truer figure.

And what about your day job? Do you have a big incentive to try to get a raise or get promoted?

It's your choice not to use certain government services, though...

That's not a refund.

 

[Famine]

And what about your day job? Do you have a big incentive to try to get a raise or get promoted?

Not even slightly.

I don't even have a big enough incentive to quit, though I'm contemplating it.

 

[smellysocks12]

I know you see taxes as stealing danoff.



You haven't been hiding that opinion here.


Now my question to you. If you think taxes are stealing, and stealing is bad.... then do you think tax fraud is moral? Do you think it is "ok" for someone to work around the rules and hide information from the government and pay less taxes than he should according to the rules, trying to keep what he earned even if that's against the law?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I know you see taxes as stealing danoff.



You haven't been hiding that opinion here.


Now my question to you. If you think taxes are stealing, and stealing is bad.... then do you think tax fraud is moral? Do you think it is "ok" for someone to work around the rules and hide information from the government and pay less taxes than he should according to the rules, trying to keep what he earned even if that's against the law?

I eagerly anticipate the response to this question.

That's not a refund.

True! Neither is car insurance unless you get into an accident. Therefore, social insurance is not a refund... unless you desparately need it. I know car insurance is voluntary and social insurance is forced, but still.

Insurance is insurance no matter how it's taken -- we're screwed either way!

 

[PS]

I eagerly anticipate the response to this question.



True! Neither is car insurance unless you get into an accident. Therefore, social insurance is not a refund... unless you desparately need it. I know car insurance is voluntary and social insurance is forced, but still.

Insurance is insurance no matter how it's taken -- we're screwed either way!

I'm pretty sure not having car insurance is illegal in Canada.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I'm pretty sure not having car insurance is illegal in Canada.

As it is in the United States... but Dan claims that car insurance is voluntary... so I'm only parroting.

 

[a6m5]

I'm pretty sure not having car insurance is illegal in Canada.

True. If you drive, liability insurance is mandatory. If your new car is financed, then full coverage insurance is required.

 

[Danoff]

True! Neither is car insurance unless you get into an accident. Therefore, social insurance is not a refund... unless you desparately need it. I know car insurance is voluntary and social insurance is forced, but still.

Insurance is insurance no matter how it's taken -- we're screwed either way!

...and with this post we've gotten off the original train of thought and lost touch with the beginning. I said I was talking about things that weren't refunds. You brought up taxes but my point remains... government benefits are not refunds.

As it is in the United States... but Dan claims that car insurance is voluntary... so I'm only parroting.

It's voluntary to own a car right?

Now my question to you. If you think taxes are stealing, and stealing is bad.... then do you think tax fraud is moral? Do you think it is "ok" for someone to work around the rules and hide information from the government and pay less taxes than he should according to the rules, trying to keep what he earned even if that's against the law?

No. It is not moral to work around the rules and hide information to pay less. Doing that only makes the problem worse... you've only shifted your (inappropriate) tax burden on to someone else who has an equally (and now even greater) inequitable tax burden.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

True. If you drive, liability insurance is mandatory. If your new car is financed, then full coverage insurance is required.

I love the use of the words "mandatory" and "required" to describe car insurance! Sounds a lot like social insurance to me. By driving, you have automatically entered into an agreement to pay car insurance. My opinion: by living in this country, you have automatically entered into an agreement to pay social insurance. It's not like transfer payments are selective (car insurance IS selective)... so I don't see what the problem is.

...and with this post we've gotten off the original train of thought and lost touch with the beginning. I said I was talking about things that weren't refunds. You brought up taxes but my point remains... government benefits are not refunds.

Not quite. I was only making a comparison between two types of payments that are not considered "refundable" under normal circumstances. Government benefits are non-refundable except when needed, as is car insurance.

It's voluntary to own a car right?

Absolutely! Just as it is voluntary to live in the United States. I don't think Bush is keeping anyone here under lock & key unless they're criminals.

No. It is not moral to work around the rules and hide information to pay less. Doing that only makes the problem worse... you've only shifted your (inappropriate) tax burden on to someone else who has an equally (and now even greater) inequitable tax burden.

So what would you consider an appropriate tax burden, then? At what rate would income tax be low enough to make getting a raise appropriate? What government benefits are you willing to slash in an effort to drop the income tax rate?

 

[Swift]

It's voluntary to own a car right?

That depends on where you live. Where I live, you don't have a car, you don't get anywhere.

 

[a6m5]

That depends on where you live. Where I live, you don't have a car, you don't get anywhere.

I agree. I see what danoff is saying, but you could also say it's optional to listen to music, watch TV, eat Snickers, etc.

Edit: Last one's joke(just in case).

 

[TheCracker]

That depends on where you live. Where I live, you don't have a car, you don't get anywhere.

Are people born without legs where you live Swift?

Are taxis, bicycles and public transport banned?

 

[a6m5]

Are people born without legs where you live Swift?

Are taxis, bicycles and public transport banned?

Those modes of transportation would be possible in UK or Japan(where I'm from). In the U.S., public transportation is a joke. If you don't agree with that, then you either haven't seen the American public trasportation system or haven't seen a good public transportation systems abroad. As far as the bikes go, I live next to Portland, Oregon, which is the most bike friendly city in the United States, and bikes are not sensible mode of transportaion here. Taxis are not even a possiblity.

 

[TheCracker]

Those modes of transportation would be possible in UK or Japan(where I'm from). In the U.S., public transportation is a joke. If you don't agree with that, then you either haven't seen the American public trasportation system or haven't seen a good public transportation systems abroad. As far as the bikes go, I live next to Portland, Oregon, which is the most bike friendly city in the United States, and bikes are not sensible mode of transportaion here. Taxis are not even a possiblity.

I've used US public transport, its no better or worse than UK public transport - its only that we have to pay so much for our fuel that people actually use it here.

America, in parts, is so geared towards the car user it would be hard for a pedestrian to get around. My dad has a place in Florida that i visited a few years back. One day i needed to pop out to get some bits and bobs. The nearest supermarket is no more than 100 meters away from the front door so i decided to walk there. It was so hot that i'd need to sit in the car with the aircon on full for a couple of minutes before the air was breathable. Between leaving the apartment and walking through the 'Publix' front door i came across NO pavements, NO pedestrian crossings, I was seemingly invisible to all car drivers and was almost run over 3 times whilst attempting to transverse the car park by the same 108 year old old women driving a huge late 70's Lincoln Town Car that she could only see out in the gap between the top of the dash board and gap inside the steering wheel! - When i first spotted the bohemouth heading towards me i thought it was driverless!

I'll never walk anywhere in the US again.