I'm Done Trying Hard

[Danoff]

danoff, quit whining. When you get a raise, you make more money. That's it. Extra taxes don't catch up to extra income. My father is an engineer at Boeing. He pays $25,000/year in taxes. Does he whine about it? No. He has a good job, job security, and a decent wage. Would he go back to take his salary from 15 years ago, just to pay less in taxes? No.

If you don't like the taxation policies where you live, move to Sweden. They'll gladly show you high taxation.

Ya, you totally missed the point.... I mean completely.

 

[PS]

And again I find myself agreeing with PS. Scary

I'm like that.

 

[Kylehnat]

Ya, you totally missed the point.... I mean completely.

Then what exactly is your point?

 

[a6m5]

I've used US public transport, its no better or worse than UK public transport - its only that we have to pay so much for our fuel that people actually use it here.

Really? I overestimated the UK public trans. system then. In Japan, they had busses coming every few minutes, trains coming every few minutes, some times within less than 2 minutes. And they were everywhere. Portland, Oregon is one of the cities that's been investing heavily into public transportaion. Let's say I'm going to a movie theater that's 10 minutes away in my car(it's the nearest one from my apartment). With busses, it will take me close to an hour, if everything goes right with the connecting bus and their schedule. On Sundays, most bus routes are on special schedule and some routes don't even run on Sundays. On foot, again, almost an hour. On bike, maybe half an hour.

America, in parts, is so geared towards the car user it would be hard for a pedestrian to get around. My dad has a place in Florida that i visited a few years back. One day i needed to pop out to get some bits and bobs. The nearest supermarket is no more than 100 meters away from the front door so i decided to walk there. It was so hot that i'd need to sit in the car with the aircon on full for a couple of minutes before the air was breathable. Between leaving the apartment and walking through the 'Publix' front door i came across NO pavements, NO pedestrian crossings, I was seemingly invisible to all car drivers and was almost run over 3 times whilst attempting to transverse the car park by the same 108 year old old women driving a huge late 70's Lincoln Town Car that she could only see out in the gap between the top of the dash board and gap inside the steering wheel! - When i first spotted the bohemouth heading towards me i thought it was driverless!

I'll never walk anywhere in the US again.

Exactly, U.S. is geared toward cars and not busses, trains or other modes of public transportation. Maybe the Detroit Big Three's influence in politics had something to do with that(that's another story), but most of the time, you can't get anywhere without a car.

Your story about the old lady, who could only see out of in between the dashboard and inside the steering wheel made me laugh. I saw something exactly like it in Japan. It was the only time I witnessed anything close to that, but "108"year old lady driving a big Toyota Crown, which you could say is the Japanese equivalent of a Lincoln.

 

[Der Alta]

Here's a good tac stat for you.

Liquor in Massachusetts is taxed at 57%. In other words, the $20 of Jack Daniels I bought last night, $11.40 goes to taxes.

Ouch.

AO

 

[Famine]

Then what exactly is your point?

That the effort vs reward ratio is too far to the left.

The reward he'd get from advancement is not sufficient for the amount of effort required - most likely because 50% of the reward is taken from him before he starts earning it.

To put it another way, why add a total of about 4 years' extra salary over your working life if you shorten your lifespan, through stress, by 20 years?

 

[smellysocks12]

So then a tax system based on position and not effort would be better? For example if someone makes $100 an hour he pays 40% of taxes, no matter how many hours he worked, and someone who earns a mere $10 an hour he should pay 20%? Personally I actually like the idea, but then you run into other problems... since not everyone is paid per hour. Besides that someone who makes $100 an hour doesn't necessarily have to be more productive than the person at the workfloor making $10 an hour. He might be sitting in his office with his feet on the desk reading the paper.


Not to mention, someone working overtime isn't always more productive than someone who works 8 hours a day. I mean, they may actually work less hard so they can be paid for another 2 extra hours to finish the job. So actually it might be good that people will not be paid for overtime as much as they'd like to be with the current tax system. There is no motivation to spend more time on the work that should be done.


Personally I'm for a reward system in a way of productivity in some way, but then you might have high costs trying to measure the exact productivity (if it is measurable at all) which might make the extra gain in productivity from people willing to work harder not worth it. It's all good to charge taxes in a fair way, but the tax system shouldn't become too complex either.

 

[ledhed]

So then a tax system based on position and not effort would be better? For example if someone makes $100 an hour he pays 40% of taxes, no matter how many hours he worked, and someone who earns a mere $10 an hour he should pay 20%? Personally I actually like the idea, but then you run into other problems... since not everyone is paid per hour. Besides that someone who makes $100 an hour doesn't necessarily have to be more productive than the person at the workfloor making $10 an hour. He might be sitting in his office with his feet on the desk reading the paper.


Not to mention, someone working overtime isn't always more productive than someone who works 8 hours a day. I mean, they may actually work less hard so they can be paid for another 2 extra hours to finish the job. So actually it might be good that people will not be paid for overtime as much as they'd like to be with the current tax system. There is no motivation to spend more time on the work that should be done.


Personally I'm for a reward system in a way of productivity in some way, but then you might have high costs trying to measure the exact productivity (if it is measurable at all) which might make the extra gain in productivity from people willing to work harder not worth it. It's all good to charge taxes in a fair way, but the tax system shouldn't become too complex either.

Its easy to see if overtime is worth it . did the job get done ? In my industry if you have overtime its to get the job done . SIMPLE enough to know if the person working with you is worth it . Have you ever had a job ?

 

[Famine]

So then a tax system based on position and not effort would be better? For example if someone makes $100 an hour he pays 40% of taxes, no matter how many hours he worked, and someone who earns a mere $10 an hour he should pay 20%? Personally I actually like the idea, but then you run into other problems... since not everyone is paid per hour. Besides that someone who makes $100 an hour doesn't necessarily have to be more productive than the person at the workfloor making $10 an hour. He might be sitting in his office with his feet on the desk reading the paper.


Not to mention, someone working overtime isn't always more productive than someone who works 8 hours a day. I mean, they may actually work less hard so they can be paid for another 2 extra hours to finish the job. So actually it might be good that people will not be paid for overtime as much as they'd like to be with the current tax system. There is no motivation to spend more time on the work that should be done.


Personally I'm for a reward system in a way of productivity in some way, but then you might have high costs trying to measure the exact productivity (if it is measurable at all) which might make the extra gain in productivity from people willing to work harder not worth it. It's all good to charge taxes in a fair way, but the tax system shouldn't become too complex either.

This may well be the most confusing post in the history of GTP.

Taxation based on income is how it happens NOW.

 

[ledhed]

you must be talking about income tax . 💡

 

[SS69]

hey since you've stopped caring, then you should just stop going to work. and when you do show up, just show up in jeans and a shirt, and play tetris and you know what they'll probably give you a promotion anywas, and hell why not throw in a few interns with it.

 

[amp88]

hey since you've stopped caring, then you should just stop going to work. and when you do show up, just show up in jeans and a shirt, and play tetris and you know what they'll probably give you a promotion anywas, and hell why not throw in a few interns with it.

Sounds a lot like Office Space

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

I'll just try not to get fired.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

For example if someone makes $100 an hour he pays 40% of taxes, no matter how many hours he worked, and someone who earns a mere $10 an hour he should pay 20%? Personally I actually like the idea, but then you run into other problems... since not everyone is paid per hour. Besides that someone who makes $100 an hour doesn't necessarily have to be more productive than the person at the workfloor making $10 an hour.

44hr week 4.4gees 4.4times50 220g 40% equals 88g of a vehicular weight in service doing something going somewhere carrying equpment , danderous loud noisy oily smelly equipment w/like gringo compadres at the wheel or shotgunning it outback w/the tent

 

[JacktheHat]

What good is a raise when you only get half of it? What good is overtime pay when it's taxed so much?

Every dollar I get more than what I'm currently earning is taxed in the highest tax brackets that I'm in. The result? When I work overtime, it isn't worth it. If I got a HUGE raise it wouldn't make all that much difference.

So I'm not going to try to get promoted. I'm not going to try to work overtime, and I'm not going to care how good a job I do. I'll just try not to get fired.

I would have thought that as long as you actually get paid and can buy food and medicine you would have considered your job FANTASTIC....

 

[Famine]

He does. He just considers that the increase in how fantastic it is isn't worth the cost in increased work, responsibility and stress.

 

[JacktheHat]

He does. He just considers that the increase in how fantastic it is isn't worth the cost in increased work, responsibility and stress.

But what about his poor employers who have gone to such an effort to increase his workload and responsibility in return for merely generating huge profits?

 

[Danoff]

But what about his poor employers who have gone to such an effort to increase his workload and responsibility in return for merely generating huge profits?

Not sure where you're going with this. I'm not going to work hard for my employers' sake, that's for sure. If I'm going to work hard, it's going to be for me. And right now, with taxes the way they are, it isn't worth it to me.

 

[JacktheHat]

Not sure where you're going with this. I'm not going to work hard for my employers' sake, that's for sure. If I'm going to work hard, it's going to be for me. And right now, with taxes the way they are, it isn't worth it to me.

Check my sig

 

[Danoff]

Check my sig

You signature doesn't apply here. I can buy food and medicine. I love my job. I just don't have any incentive to work HARDER .

 

[JacktheHat]

You signature doesn't apply here. I can buy food and medicine. I love my job. I just don't have any incentive to work HARDER .

Surely you're gratitude for having a job is incentive enough?

 

[Danoff]

Surely you're gratitude for having a job is incentive enough?

Not at all. It's enough to get me to work hard enough not to be fired. But it isn't enough to get me to go after the promotion.

 

[ledhed]

OMG its a symptom of socialism creeping in here ! Dude get an innoculation fast ! Go grab atlas shrugged...you need an intervention..Adam Smith may be too late ...

 

[Danoff]

OMG its a symptom of socialism creeping in here ! Dude get an innoculation fast ! Go grab atlas shrugged...you need an intervention..Adam Smith may be too late ...

It's a symptom of socialism alright, but not on my part.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

So Danoff, would I be right in saying that it is the increase in the marginal rate of taxation that would apply were you to work harder is acting as a disincentive?

Or are you just saying that you're reasonably happy where you are?

In my situation, I'm massively unhappy. I'm at least 20% underpaid, and am actively looking for a new job. My entire management chain knows this. I'm shooting at jobs that are over 50% more than what I'm being paid at the moment, and whilst the dice haven't fallen for me yet, my Recruitment Advisors are telling me that my demands are entirely reasonable.

I think that there should be a flat rate for income tax, and that it should be high enough that VAT, Excise Duty, and local taxation can all be abolished.

Then I'd like to see a period of social reform, whereby you actually pay for all the services to which you are entitled, but if you do not want or need to use those services, you should be refunded.

Currently, I earn money on which I pay tax. Then, if I buy anything at all (seriously, check out the list of things to which "Value Added" Tax and/or "Excise Duty" do not apply), my already-taxed earnings are taxed again. If I then choose to use an alternative to a public service, I get to double-pay all over again. Yay! Isn't life great!

 

[Danoff]

So Danoff, would I be right in saying that it is the increase in the marginal rate of taxation that would apply were you to work harder is acting as a disincentive?

Or are you just saying that you're reasonably happy where you are?

In my situation, I'm massively unhappy.

I'm sorry to hear that Giles. Good luck on your job search. I hope that it turns out for you.

I'm reasonably happy where I am, and that's part of the problem. But I can gaurantee that if taxes were lower I'd have some drive to take on more responsibility and get raises.

The problem is threefold.

- I make way more than enough to get by - meaning that I'm not driven at all by necessities.
- My education affords me limited opportunities. I have a great education. I'm proud of my engineering master's degree, but limits are limits. I'd be lucky to double my salary by the time I retire (I'm 25 now).
- Taxes make that salary increase a significantly smaller percentage of my current income.


It's most obvious in my reluctance to earn overtime pay. If taxes dissapeared (which I realize is not really possible, but considering a situation where only sales tax existed...) then I can tell you I'd be looking for every opportunity to take on overtime. I'd be volunteering for it and that would make me look good and set me up for a raise or promotion. However, taxes are quite high (especially when you factor in California's income tax). As it stands, overtime simply isn't worth it for me to go after. I'll still claim it if I have to do it to get my job done, but I'm not going to be going after it.

The bottom line is that I'd be gung ho about furthering my career if I weren't losing half of every additional dollar I make.

 

[ledhed]

Going only by reading your post . I would swear you were at least 45 ....

Dude you GOTTA LIVE !!! lifes to short ! Wear a lampshade for cripes sake !! LITEN UP .

 

[Young_Warrior]

Danoff what exactly do you do in your job.