Iran

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All it would take is one little thing for a catastrophe, be it a trickle down of technology to terrorists, or a slip up on the governments part.
You didn't actually answer my question.

Are you aware of exact what would be involved in carrying out a WMD attack?


Because one country has terrorists bent on their god, (or something along those lines.) and one country doesn't.
Nice true, shame its not actually true....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Ayin

...defined as a Jewish terror group (who target Palestinians) by Israel themselves. That's not to mention a few others both past and present.


And I trust Jewish people an infinite times more than all of the other middle eastern countries.
Based on what exactly?

How often and to what countries have you traveled in the region? How many people from these countries have you spent time with?
 
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This thread has turned into a Bopop4 ignorance hour.

Really? Kill everyone in Iran? What makes you any better than the so called "terrorists" you so detest?
 
We don't fly commercial planes into busy buildings, strap s-vests to children and women, cut off non-combatants' heads and post the videos on the Internet, kidnap citizens and force their family members to murder coalition troops before murdering those who were kidnapped, blow up restaurants, busses, marketplaces, and government buildings full of women and children.... Did I miss anything?

Not everyone in Iran is a terrorist; but their government supports it.

Bopop may be ignorant, his hatred might be misplaced and over the top, but no country should be allowed to support half of the things Al Qaeda or the Taliban do. That is one thing that I do agree with; everything else... Pffft.
 
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Is there a connection between Iran and the 9/11 attacks I'm unaware of?

In fact, I'd like someone to tell me ANYTHING Iran did that can be called terrorism. Facts please, not the usual generalized assumptions.


PS - I guess you can call terrorism the clumsy failed attempt against an Israeli diplomat in India. But, as someone pointed out before in this thread, state ordered assassination is not terrorism. And, in this case, it was only an attempt at retribution.
 
We don't fly commercial planes into busy buildings, strap s-vests to children and women, cut off non-combatants' heads and post the videos on the Internet, kidnap citizens and force their family members to murder coalition troops before murdering those who were kidnapped, blow up restaurants, busses, marketplaces, and government buildings full of women and children.... Did I miss anything?

How could I tell you live in Texas?

Iran wasn't responsible for 9/11.

Iran's military service is only men, no children and women. Also, last time I checked, they don't do suicide bombing.

Iran never has beheaded non-combatants and upload them onto Youtube, their internet is too slow anyways...

Iran has kidnapped some citizens, but those were the idiots who thought that they could protest against the government and win.

We don't blow up restaurants, busses or any of that crap. The only time that Iranians have been blown up is when they go to Iraq to mourn for the Imam Hassan, and the Sunni extremists try to kill the Shias (remember, Iran is largely Shia)

Is there a connection between Iran and the 9/11 attacks I'm unaware of?

There is absolutely no connection between Iran and 9/11.
 
Never said Iran did any of the above. I said they supported it. Maybe read it again?

And yes, magically you are superior to me because I live in Texas...

I have lived in Oklahoma, California, North Carolina, Iraq, and now Texas.

But, due to the last location my opinion means little.

There is absolutely no connection between Iran and 9/11.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-07-30/news/32946336_1_fund-terror-khamenei-plot

http://www.bloomberg.com/article/2011-12-23/aYoOcZ6NT3wo.html

Good thing you have no authority.

Weird how you THOUGHT you knew so much?

You would rather criticize the place someone lives than find the facts for yourself. Oh, and see below...

Hun200kmh
Is there a connection between Iran and the 9/11 attacks I'm unaware of?

In fact, I'd like someone to tell me ANYTHING Iran did that can be called terrorism. Facts please, not the usual generalized assumptions.

PS - I guess you can call terrorism the clumsy failed attempt against an Israeli diplomat in India. But, as someone pointed out before in this thread, state ordered assassination is not terrorism. And, in this case, it was only an attempt at retribution.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ader-orders-fresh-terror-attacks-on-West.html

http://www.brookings.edu/research/testimony/2012/07/25-iran-terrorism-byman


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/09/canada-severs-diplomatic-ties-iran.html

http://www.cfr.org/intelligence/mcc...vidence-irans-support-iraqi-insurgents/p13692


http://www.meforum.org/670/irans-link-to-al-qaeda-the-9-11-commissions

http://m.npr.org/story/157768518?ur...eekly-standard-iran-supports-taliban-al-qaida

Ya, they have nothing to do with terrorism.

Some of you need to get a clue.

Would you like me to continue with links or do you get the picture?
 
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We don't fly commercial planes into busy buildings, strap s-vests to children and women, cut off non-combatants' heads and post the videos on the Internet, kidnap citizens and force their family members to murder coalition troops before murdering those who were kidnapped, blow up restaurants, busses, marketplaces, and government buildings full of women and children.... Did I miss anything?

Not everyone in Iran is a terrorist; but their government supports it.

Bopop may be ignorant, his hatred might be misplaced and over the top, but no country should be allowed to support half of the things Al Qaeda or the Taliban do. That is one thing that I do agree with; everything else... Pffft.

While I agree that Bopop is right to condemn the Iranian government (which arguably amount to little more than a religious dictatorship); his/her call for genocide and ignoring Israel's actions in the region smacks massively of bias and ignorance.
 
The question isn't whether to decimate the Iranian population surely. Neither Israel nor NATO are stupid enough to attempt to do that (especially when the muslim world likes to blame 'the West' even for victims of suicide bombings).

The question is whether Iran should be allowed to have a nuclear weapon. If diplomacy doesn't prevent them, should their nuclear installations be taken out?

And looking at Iran's friends ... hmm ...
 
NoKo has nukes but they haven't done anything. I'm more worried about what Russia is up to than Iran.
 
Never said Iran did any of the above. I said they supported it. Maybe read it again?

And yes, magically you are superior to me because I live in Texas...

I have lived in Oklahoma, California, North Carolina, Iraq, and now Texas.

But, due to the last location my opinion means little.



http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-07-30/news/32946336_1_fund-terror-khamenei-plot

http://www.bloomberg.com/article/2011-12-23/aYoOcZ6NT3wo.html

Good thing you have no authority.

Weird how you THOUGHT you knew so much?

You would rather criticize the place someone lives than find the facts for yourself. Oh, and see below...




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ader-orders-fresh-terror-attacks-on-West.html

http://www.brookings.edu/research/testimony/2012/07/25-iran-terrorism-byman


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/09/canada-severs-diplomatic-ties-iran.html

http://www.cfr.org/intelligence/mcc...vidence-irans-support-iraqi-insurgents/p13692


http://www.meforum.org/670/irans-link-to-al-qaeda-the-9-11-commissions

http://m.npr.org/story/157768518?ur...eekly-standard-iran-supports-taliban-al-qaida

Ya, they have nothing to do with terrorism.

Some of you need to get a clue.

Would you like me to continue with links or do you get the picture?


Couple of interesting links to interesting organizations. You must understand that the credibility of the USA's intelligence has hit an all time low after the iraqi WMD fiasco. Nevertheless, what I see reported in the Daily Telegraph is all about state assassinations, not terrorism. And I guess Iran is nothing but a student of such matters, at least compared to Israel.


Shall we look into the MEF "About Us"? I'll quote:


Mission

The Middle East Forum promotes American interests in the Middle East and protects the Constitutional order from Middle Eastern threats.

The Forum sees the region — with its profusion of dictatorships, radical ideologies, existential conflicts, border disagreements, corruption, political violence, and weapons of mass destruction — as a major source of problems for the United States. Accordingly, it urges active measures to protect Americans and their allies.

U.S. interests in the Middle East include fighting radical Islam; working for Palestinian acceptance of Israel; robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia; developing strategies to deal with Iraq and contain Iran; and monitoring the advance of Islamism in Turkey.

Domestically, the Forum combats lawful Islamism; protects the freedom of public speech of anti-Islamist authors, activists, and publishers; and works to improve Middle East studies in North America.



What about NPR? Well, I did look for news there and apart from Romney, on the issue of Iran there was this transcript of a radio report. If in the USA this is considered unbiased journalism, then I understand how out of focus people can become.

This is just one of the priceless parts of that transcript:

SEIF HUDDEIN: (Foreign language spoken)

CARBERRY: The 26-year old has run this store for two years. He sells kitchenware, toys and other trinkets. Like many people in western Afghanistan, he spent time in exile in Iran. He says that Iran has done a few things to help Afghanistan since the Taliban fell.

HUDDEIN: (Through Translator) Sixty percent of the electricity in Herat comes from Iran, and Iran paved 120 kilometers of road from the border to Herat City. The people are happy about the good works Iran has done here, but the people know that Iran is not a good country. The owner of the shop next door agrees.

ABDUL MALIK: (Speaking foreign language)

CARBERRY: Abdul Malik says the Iranian government looks down on Afghans and treats them badly, especially the two million refugees still in Iran.

ABDUL-QAIUM SAJJADI: (Speaking foreign language)

CARBERRY: Abdul-Qaium Sajjadi is a member of the Afghan parliament. He alleges Iran is dumping cheap goods into Afghanistan in an effort to undermine local manufacturers and the economy. He says this is in stark contrast to Iran's public statements of support for Afghanistan. Sajjadi and others say Iran is playing a variety of games that contradict its official line.

KATE CLARK: They certainly continue to fund senior members of the government.

CARBERRY: Kate Clark is the senior analyst with the Afghan Analysts Network, a think tank in Kabul.

CLARK: The president's former chief of staff came back with millions of dollars stuffed into plastic bags, and when asked about it, President Karzai said well, why not.


I'm sorry, I don't like Iran or its regime, but you didn't just say they were against the very existence of Israel or that they regard the USA as enemy of their interests in the region. That would be entirely true. You basically implied they are terrorists or at least their government is. And that isn't true, even if they indeed are, and consider themselves, your enemies.
 
NoKo has nukes but they haven't done anything. I'm more worried about what Russia is up to than Iran.

The countries that have nukes at the moment have either democratically elected governments or at the very least, do not have a religious figure dictating state policy.

I'm sure all the atheists on this forum would be at the gates of the Vatican protesting and scuffling with the Swiss Guard if the Pope was reported to be developing nukes.
 
The countries that have nukes at the moment have either democratically elected governments or at the very least, do not have a religious figure dictating state policy.
Umm - North Korea?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction



I'm sure all the atheists on this forum would be at the gates of the Vatican protesting and scuffling with the Swiss Guard if the Pope was reported to be developing nukes.
Quite why only Atheist's would have a problem with a religious organisation developing nuclear weapons is beyond me. Seem's that comment was more aimed as a dig at Atheists that anything else. Given that Theism isn't the topic of this conversation you may want to leave that well alone.

Personally I have an issue with any county developing nuclear weaponry (or any other form of WMD for that matter) regardless of how 'safe' that country is considered. Nuclear energy used for power generation is however a totally different topic and the issue is that post-Iraq any claim of weapon generation is going to need to be stupidly robust to be able to garner any public support for action.

It would also need a strong explanation as to why one part of the 'axis of evil' (got to love that term) carries on showing off it nuclear weapons (N Korea) while one that we don't even know has them gathers calls for direct action.
 
Hun200kmh
Couple of interesting links to interesting organizations. You must understand that the credibility of the USA's intelligence has hit an all time low after the iraqi WMD fiasco. Nevertheless, what I see reported in the Daily Telegraph is all about state assassinations, not terrorism. And I guess Iran is nothing but a student of such matters, at least compared to Israel.

Shall we look into the MEF "About Us"? I'll quote:

What about NPR? Well, I did look for news there and apart from Romney, on the issue of Iran there was this transcript of a radio report. If in the USA this is considered unbiased journalism, then I understand how out of focus people can become.

This is just one of the priceless parts of that transcript:

I'm sorry, I don't like Iran or its regime, but you didn't just say they were against the very existence of Israel or that they regard the USA as enemy of their interests in the region. That would be entirely true. You basically implied they are terrorists or at least their government is. And that isn't true, even if they indeed are, and consider themselves, your enemies.

Pick and choose sources to rip apart, omit the ones that don't prove your point, decisive journalism victory. But, I apologize for not being able to link any academic journals or classified information....

I dealt with intelligence on a daily basis in the Middle East, did you? I also, to this day, have a Secret Clearance granted to me by the US. Do you? If your answer is no... You have no hold on what constitutes the credibility of US intelligence. Guess finding and killing Bin Laden had nothing to do with intelligence...

It's also a funny thing about the WMD's.... We know he had them, because we gave them to him.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

So you see, you don't know jack.

2 tours in Iraq knowing that weapons and terrorists are coming into the country from Iran.

2 tours in Iraq being told this by Iraqi citizens, MEK, and Iranian contacts.

You must not understand that the factors we base our intelligence on aren't just made up out of thin air. It doesn't come from some desk jockey scouring the Internet, and it sure as hell doesn't get posted up by journalists compromising our sources. We don't just spend billions on a hunch. You have probably never even seen/heard any type of classified information, but please, base your opinion of US intelligence on what is on the Internet.

Scaff
While I agree that Bopop is right to condemn the Iranian government (which arguably amount to little more than a religious dictatorship); his/her call for genocide and ignoring Israel's actions in the region smacks massively of bias and ignorance.

True, but I was not condoning his means, only his opinion, which granted is way over the top. I do not support any type of genocide, unless it's one that guarantees a greater number of human lives without it.
 
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I also, to this day, have a Secret Clearance granted to me by the US. Do you?

Is this the "ludicrous claims" thread? If indeed you had a secret clearance you wouldn't speak about it. That's the point of secrecy, you know ... you should keep the Secret Clearance ... Secret.

Oh and conveniently, you can tell me that you know secret stuff, but you can't tell me the secrets. Nice.

I suggest you try harder next time you want to voice your opinion. You are entitled to it, no need to make up some "intelligence connection". If you had it, you wouldn't mention it.

I'm done with you.
 
I suggest you try harder next time you want to voice your opinion. You are entitled to it, no need to make up some "intelligence connection". If you had it, you wouldn't mention it.

I'm done with you.
What a convenient way out of this discussion without debating any of the things provided in response to you or backing up your initial claim.


Also, I'd like to point something out here in regards to it:

You must understand that the credibility of the USA's intelligence has hit an all time low after the iraqi WMD fiasco.
You must understand that "the Iraqi WMD fiasco" was an example of the people running the show taking established intelligence information and twisting it to push through and go to war with a country. It isn't the fault of the intelligence gatherers or a blight on their credibility when the people they give it to use it in a way opposite of what was intended.

But, as someone pointed out before in this thread, state ordered assassination is not terrorism.
I'd like to know why a random forum post is supposed to mean anything in regards to finality on the matter of what is and isn't terrorism. You must understand that terrorism can be government-backed and even government-run, yes?
 
What a convenient way out of this discussion without debating any of the things provided in response to you or backing up your initial claim.

What? I'm not out of this discussion or thread, am I? And I replied to all previous posts, excuse me if I don't feel I need to reply to someone that tells me he knows secrets, I know jack and that's it.


Also, I'd like to point something out here in regards to it:

You must understand that "the Iraqi WMD fiasco" was an example of the people running the show taking established intelligence information and twisting it to push through and go to war with a country. It isn't the fault of the intelligence gatherers or a blight on their credibility when the people they give it to use it in a way opposite of what was intended.

You are right, I shouldn't have blamed the "intelligence gatherers", people I do respect and I believe risk their lives to gather said intelligence. Whatever they gathered was either not enough to reach a conclusion, or the conclusion was independent and decided before any intelligence gathering.


I'd like to know why a random forum post is supposed to mean anything in regards to finality on the matter of what is and isn't terrorism. You must understand that terrorism can be government-backed and even government-run, yes?

It wasn't a random forum post. About terrorism, and regarding the assassination of Iranian scientists, supposedly perpetrated - but not confirmed or assumed - by the Israeli secret services, someone said that there was a difference between political assassinations and terrorism. Therefore, and again if indeed Israelis were to blame for those actions, that didn't make Israel a terrorist state, either as terrorism-backers of terrorism-runners, to use your words.
 
Hun200kmh
Is this the "ludicrous claims" thread? If indeed you had a secret clearance you wouldn't speak about it. That's the point of secrecy, you know ... you should keep the Secret Clearance ... Secret.

Oh and conveniently, you can tell me that you know secret stuff, but you can't tell me the secrets. Nice.

I suggest you try harder next time you want to voice your opinion. You are entitled to it, no need to make up some "intelligence connection". If you had it, you wouldn't mention it.

I'm done with you.


Yes, actually I do speak about it. In fact, it is on my resume because it is a huge draw to employers in Computer Sciences. I received my clearance in 2007, it is good for 10 years; but you wouldn't know that.

I didn't use an excuse, I stated facts. If you deny the inability to hand out classified documents on a forum, then you are even more ignorant than I was led to believe.

But, since you have now been proven wrong you decide to attack my integrity; well played child, well played.

Now, move along.
 
It's also a funny thing about the WMD's.... We know he had them, because we gave them to him.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

So you see, you don't know jack.

Its fairly common knowledge that Iraq had WMD's; its also I think quite true to say that was in the past tense. In the same way that I had firearms until the UK changed the law and I had to surrender it. Does the fact that I used to hold firearms justify the police kicking down my door today?

The allied forces blew any and all goodwill as far as assumptions go well out of the water with regard to suspicion of WMD's. I would suspect that it would be rather difficult to justify given how badly that turned out on Iraq.



True, but I was not condoning his means, only his opinion, which granted is way over the top.
Great that you say that, but then rather odd that you add this....

I do not support any type of genocide, unless it's one that guarantees a greater number of human lives without it.
....you are aware I take it that Genocide involved the systematic slaughter of every man, woman and child within a country/ethnic/religious group?

As such its never justified at all.
 
Also, you can't take what Stephen Harper and John Baird say about the Middle East seriously, since they are nothing but puppets for Netanyahu.
 
Yes, but that is hindsight bias; there was no way to know Hussein had used all of his chemical/biological weapons without having boots on the ground. Regardless, it was used to sway the public into a war frenzy; actual reasons for going as always are debatable because CNN said so and anything else is a 'ludicrous claim.'

Genocide as in the mass killing of citizens surrounding military targets of a particular nation as a means of psychological debilitation. NOT in the sense of ethnic, racial, etc. cleansing.

I view any type of nuclear warfare as genocide; there is little selective capability resulting in the mass murder of innocents just because they belong to that nation.

Off topic: Did you get reimbursed for your weapons? And what did they do with them?

Google time.
 
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Yes, but that is hindsight bias; there was no way to know Hussein had used all of his chemical/biological weapons without having boots on the ground. Regardless, it was used to sway the public into a war frenzy; actual reasons for going as always are debatable because CNN said so and anything else is a 'ludicrous claim.'
We had boots on the ground, the UN weapons inspectors who stated that they found no evidence of WMD's, the reports they filed were basically sidelined and the rather dodgy material that replaced it was used to argue the case at the UN.

Its not a case of hindsight if someone on the ground is saying 'nope no WMD's here' and they are then ignored.



Genocide as in the mass killing of citizens surrounding military targets of a particular nation as a means of psychological debilitation. NOT in the sense of ethnic, racial, etc. cleansing.
Sorry but what you are talking about is collateral damage, which is quite different to Genocide:
On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust, and due in large part to Lemkin’s efforts, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide” as an international crime, which signatory nations “undertake to prevent and punish.” It says:

genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
  • Killing members of the group;
  • Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Source: http://efchr.mcgill.ca/WhatIsGenocide_en.php?menu=2



Off topic: Did you get reimbursed for your weapons? And what did they do with them?

Google time.
No and they destroyed them.
 

What part of "...at the very least, do not have a religious figure dictating state policy" did you not understand?

Quite why only Atheist's would have a problem with a religious organisation developing nuclear weapons is beyond me. Seem's that comment was more aimed as a dig at Atheists that anything else. Given that Theism isn't the topic of this conversation you may want to leave that well alone.

Where did I say atheists would be the only people to have a problem with a religious organisation developing nuclear weapons? I was speculating that atheists would work themselves into enough of a frenzy to protest at the gates of the Vatican. Many people have problems with policies of many organisations, but you don't see every single one of them protest at the gates of those particular organisations.

Why you take offence on the behalf of all atheists everywhere is also beyond me. I think theism is perfectly applicable in the scenario where a religious figure can just give himself the authority to be acting on the behalf of god when using a nuclear weapon.

Try not to let the red mist descend on your eyes when you see a post written by me.
 
What part of "...at the very least, do not have a religious figure dictating state policy" did you not understand?
I would strongly suggest that you drop the attitude, its not required (not a discussion point).

Most observers of North Korea are quite happy to describe the state of government as one of a 'Cult of personalty' and given that both Messiah and Creation myths exists around the ruling dynasty they are close enough for many.

That aside why would religious fundamentalists be needed to pose a risk of using a nuclear device. To date the only nation that has done so doesn't fit that model.



Where did I say atheists would be the only people to have a problem with a religious organisation developing nuclear weapons? I was speculating that atheists would work themselves into enough of a frenzy to protest at the gates of the Vatican. Many people have problems with policies of many organisations, but you don't see every single one of them protest at the gates of those particular organisations.

Why you take offence on the behalf of all atheists everywhere is also beyond me. I think theism is perfectly applicable in the scenario where a religious figure can just give himself the authority to be acting on the behalf of god when using a nuclear weapon.
I don't see any reason why Atheists even needed to be used in the example in the first place. As the point I posed stated, why would only Atheists take issue with the Vatican starting to develop nuclear weapons (as you chose to cite them specifically in the claim)?

Its also a strawman argument based around the premise that all Atheists (or at least the ones here) would attack the Vatican for developing x type of weapon. A point that automatically supposes that all Atheists would support this because they are blinded by the fact its a religion? It totally ignores the fact that Atheists are as likely to have a wide range of views on the the development and use of WMD as the population at large. If your point held any ground the front of Iranian embassies worldwide would be impossible to get to for all the Atheists protesting against WMD development (and doing so because they are Atheists). Oddly enough most of the people who protest against countries gaining nuclear weapons (any country) are those against nuclear weapons fully stop (and they come from all corners of the religious and secular arena).


Try not to let the red mist descend on your eyes when you see a post written by me.
No red mist here, simply a reply to an example I don't see as being needed.
 
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Fortunately or unfortunately, this will be my final post directed at you in this forum.

Umm - North Korea?

Quite why only Atheist's would have a problem with a religious organisation developing nuclear weapons is beyond me. Seem's that comment was more aimed as a dig at Atheists that anything else. Given that Theism isn't the topic of this conversation you may want to leave that well alone.

I would strongly suggest that you drop the attitude, its not required (not a discussion point).

And I'm the only one with the attitude? Don't expect a respectful answer when you're dishing out disrespect.

I can't debate with someone who keeps using attitude against me, gets personal at every opportunity (the entirety of the Islam thread was a case in point) and then threatens me with a banhammer.

👍

Most observers of North Korea are quite happy to describe the state of government as one of a 'Cult of personalty' and given that both Messiah and Creation myths exists around the ruling dynasty they are close enough for many.

That aside why would religious fundamentalists be needed to pose a risk of using a nuclear device. To date the only nation that has done so doesn't fit that model.

So you're saying Kim-Jong-Un and his forefathers are now the heads of a religious order? Your own favourite research encyclopedia Wikipedia says the belief of majority of North Koreans is 'irreligion'.

Besides, "Most observers of North Korea are quite happy to describe the state of government as one of a 'Cult of personalty' and given that both Messiah and Creation myths exists around the ruling dynasty they are close enough for many" is fraught with hearsay. Who are 'most and who are 'many'?


I don't see any reason why Atheists even needed to be used in the example in the first place. As the point I posed stated, why would only Atheists take issue with the Vatican starting to develop nuclear weapons (as you chose to cite them specifically in the claim)?
...

I repeat again, where did I say only atheists would take issue with that?

No red mist here, simply a reply to an example I don't see as being needed.

Who decides what examples are taken in this forum? Your indefatigable need to have the last word ends with either you twisting sentences (by either taking them literally or drawing far-fetched conclusions) written by the opposite person or outright warning them.

Peace out.
 
Fortunately or unfortunately, this will be my final post directed at you in this forum.
Entirely your choice.




And I'm the only one with the attitude? Don't expect a respectful answer when you're dishing out disrespect.

I can't debate with someone who keeps using attitude against me, gets personal at every opportunity (the entirety of the Islam thread was a case in point) and then threatens me with a banhammer.
A Theist discussion would drag this thread off topic, as such that is an AUP issue and would result in post deletion and possible warnings regardless of who was doing it. We already have a thread to discuss God, this one is not it.

That's not a case of attitude, its an observation based upon the topic of this thread, and bans have not been mentioned at all.



So you're saying Kim-Jong-Un and his forefathers are now the heads of a religious order? Your own favourite research encyclopedia Wikipedia says the belief of majority of North Koreans is 'irreligion'.

Besides, "Most observers of North Korea are quite happy to describe the state of government as one of a 'Cult of personalty' and given that both Messiah and Creation myths exists around the ruling dynasty they are close enough for many" is fraught with hearsay. Who are 'most and who are 'many'?
No I did not state that at all, I made a comprison that a cult of personallity shares many of the same traits as a religion, as for sources that would share the same view they are not exactly thin on the ground.

I have also posted a link already that illustrates some of the miracles claimed by the ruling dynasty, particularly around the birth of Kim-Jon Il, claims that come directly from North Korea themselves.

All that aside I struggle to see how you could object to North Korea being used as a reference point when discussing Iran and Nuclear Weapons, its a link that has been made repeatedly by the US government themselves.

I repeat again, where did I say only atheists would take issue with that?
Your example specifically cited atheists. If you meant to include other groups then why did you not include them? Or simply say....

"I'm sure those opposed to nuclear weapons on this forum would be at the gates of the Vatican protesting and scuffling with the Swiss Guard if the Pope was reported to be developing nukes."

...but you didn't, you focused on one specific group in a straw-man argument.

Who decides what examples are taken in this forum? Your indefatigable need to have the last word ends with either you twisting sentences (by either taking them literally or drawing far-fetched conclusions) written by the opposite person or outright warning them.

Peace out.
A discussion is an ongoing process, as such no potential end word need exist, if I want to reply to a point any member has made I will do so, that is after all the point of a discussion forum.

I have also not twisted anyone's sentences, I will however query what exactly is meant by them, which once again is the point of a discussion.

On the question of who decides what gets posted, that would be the staff and I have only ever warned or infracted people who have broken the AUP. As all moderation action is centrally recorded and viewed by the entire staff (including the site owner) if I were using it to bolster my position (as you appear to be claiming) I would no longer hold a position on the staff.
 
Scaff
We had boots on the ground, the UN weapons inspectors who stated that they found no evidence of WMD's, the reports they filed were basically sidelined and the rather dodgy material that replaced it was used to argue the case at the UN.

Its not a case of hindsight if someone on the ground is saying 'nope no WMD's here' and they are then ignored.

Sorry but what you are talking about is collateral damage, which is quite different to Genocide:

Source: http://efchr.mcgill.ca/WhatIsGenocide_en.php?menu=2

No and they destroyed them.

Yes, but a handful of UN inspection agents being escorted around by nationals can easily be deceived. Then you call into question the denial and later confession of a weapons program, delaying or blocking all together inspectors visits to facilities, kicking them out, and documented but unaccounted weapons and it's a whole other ball game. Saddam loved to lie and hide. I remember being in the hospital watching news reports of the regime stating they were driving back the infidels, they were still in control, yadda yadda, all while we are already in Baghdad and Hussein is hiding in a hole.

"Iraqi documents, for example, left some 1,000 tons of chemical agents unaccounted for... "

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/sc7664.doc.htm

"UNSCOM reported numerous discrepancies, particularly with regard to biological weapons, between what Iraq claimed it had and evidence discovered by weapons inspectors. For four years, Baghdad denied the very existence of its biological weapons program. When Iraq finally did acknowledge having such a program, UNSCOM officials judged its declarations so insufficient—an assessment shared by independent experts—that the UN team claimed it could not even form a baseline by which to measure its progress in revealing and abolishing Iraq’s germ warfare program."

HTTP://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_10/iraqspecialoct02

I like the chart at the bottom of that page, makes reading easier.

It's not collateral damage if civilian casualties were intended; Japan in WW2, Nagasaki with no military installation specifically, the US used nuclear bombs as psychological weapons to force Japan to surrender. I can understand a couple hundred, but hundreds of thousands... that, in my opinion, is genocide. The military may use the term collateral damage to avoid sleepless nights, but it's all the same.
 
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Never said Iran did any of the above. I said they supported it. Maybe read it again?

And yes, magically you are superior to me because I live in Texas...

I have lived in Oklahoma, California, North Carolina, Iraq, and now Texas.

But, due to the last location my opinion means little.


Good thing you have no authority.

Weird how you THOUGHT you knew so much?

You would rather criticize the place someone lives than find the facts for yourself. Oh, and see below...



Ya, they have nothing to do with terrorism.

Some of you need to get a clue.

Would you like me to continue with links or do you get the picture?

That court ruling is complete political BS, only used to pour more gas in the fire. I mean, while parts of it is true (Al Qaeda and the Taliban most likely have people in Iran), Iran didn't have a direct involvement in 9/11.

I never said Iran wasn't a terrorist country. I'm sure its done some terrorising tihngs, but then again, which country isn't a terrorist in another country's eyes?



In other news, the exchange rate is now 3550.... the Iranian Rial is plummeting faster than a bird after it flew into an office building window.
 
It's not collateral damage if civilian casualties were intended; Japan in WW2, Nagasaki with no military installation specifically, the US used nuclear bombs as psychological weapons to force Japan to surrender. I can understand a couple hundred, but hundreds of thousands... that, in my opinion, is genocide. The military may use the term collateral damage to avoid sleepless nights, but it's all the same.

Sorry, but I have to say something about the part in bold. First, the use of the A-bomb in Japan, while certainly devastating, was much, much less costly than the alternative. Also, the Soviet invasion of Japanese territories was a factor as well.

Also, Hiroshima did house some military points (I've yet to find a 100% solid answer though).

I'm not saying I'm all for the use of Atomic weapons in warfare, or nuking Iran, but I do believe that that particular event was justified.
 
speed157
Sorry, but I have to say something about the part in bold. First, the use of the A-bomb in Japan, while certainly devastating, was much, much less costly than the alternative. Also, the Soviet invasion of Japanese territories was a factor as well.

Also, Hiroshima did house some military points (I've yet to find a 100% solid answer though).

I'm not saying I'm all for the use of Atomic weapons in warfare, or nuking Iran, but I do believe that that particular event was justified.

You're agreeing with me :P Like I said, only when genocide results in fewer lives lost than the alternative do I support it. That's why I brought up Nagasaki specifically. Hiroshima had training barracks and they might have manufactured weapons there as well (been awhile since I studied and I'm too lazy to google) . Regardless, in either case casualties were overwhelmingly civilian. And I agree that it was justified. But, back to Iran.
 
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