Is GT7 fast becoming the worst of the GT Series?

[FPV MIC]

You say this as if nobody has ever done this before.

He mustn't own a rubber band

 

[sh33p]

This is factually untrue. I haven’t spent a penny on credits, had no inclination too, and have no plans too.

If you genuinely don't believe that GT7 isn't built around MTX, then you need to take another serious look at it.

Its painstakingly clear that this game is designed like a F2P game in a way to PUSH people towards MTX. No one is forced to buy them but its so damn obvious that the game is designed to make players want to buy them.

I too, have not purchased MTX and I never will, as that is who I am. But others than do participate in MTX purchases in general, will feel the pressure to buy in this game and are likely to do so.

 

[05XR8]

Okay, since noone can absolutely answer what is the worse GT in the series. They can answer what they feel is the worse.

From the OP:

OK, so you've done all your Licences, completed the Cafe Menu and done every circuit race/challenge… what now?

The Weekly races are only good for so long and even shorter if you keep getting nailed by the penalty system for no good reason.

After all, how can you be penalised (track limits, for example) when some neanderthal deliberately punts you off the circuit. And, because of said same neanderthal you lose your ‘clean race’ factor. Seriously? I could go on but I’m sure you’ve all experienced the same in one form or another.

Is it just me or was (apologies... I can’t actually remember which one) GT5 or 6 way better in terms of decent content? Everything just appears to be so limited right now and I for one am getting a little frustrated, especially with the Bugs in the system.

The main gripe, by the OP, are online races. Most players don't use Sport Mode. GT7 Sport Mode details & events, seem to be worse than GT Sport. Does this make it THEE worse Gran Turismo in the series?

If GT5 & 6 have more content than GT7, does this make it THEE worse in the series? I think Famine crunched the numbers and GT7 has the worse economy(?). What was worse than before GT7? Does the economy make this THEE worse GT in the series?

The very fact that Polyphony instituted the micro-transactions on day one of general release, and the fact that they have spoken (and indeed, instituted) raising prices on vehicles, specifically Legendary vehicles, blows a hole in this theory. Likewise, the fact that every action that requires you to spend credits has a redirect to buy micro-transactions speaks highly that Polyphony wants you to top up your credits with micro-transactions, which flies in the face of the belief that you can play the game without spending money.

As above, the economy is bad. However, what's the majority of people that are clicking micro-transactions? I haven't used the option. ScottPye hasn't used the option. That's two people so far. Have you used the option?

MTX may be like a gambling addiction. I don't know. So, those that are strong enough to resist or aren't tempted at all, what's the problem? For many, it's going to be time. Which sucks for those with not enough time and for those who have the time, but would rather not spend certain lengths of time playing.

For those that can't resist clicking to buy large amounts of MTX, I've got no answer. Is it either their choice, some form of addiction, players that click before reading or bold strategy from the game maker?

Again, I say bad execution. I'll keep repeating it. I see everyone's points. Seriously.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Another good video summarizing a lot of the issues

 

[LeonPee]

I don't know how to qualify "worst", but I'll safely say most disappointing, although I skipped GT6 so I can't speak to that. It's the one that, to me, feels like it underdelivers the most on its promises and has the widest gulf between its potential and the reality of the game.

I don't really care for the online modes, but even still I don't begrudge Sport, because they openly said "hey we're trying to go in a competitive/esport direction with this title", so I knew it wouldn't be my cup of tea. GT7 was advertised by Kaz as "the most complete GT to date" and also as a "return to form" for people who liked the solo career/campaign/progression stuff from previous titles. Even being generous, I don't know how any interpretation of that could be accurate.

 

[NotThePrez]

As above, the economy is bad. However, what's the majority of people that are clicking micro-transactions? I haven't used the option. ScottPye hasn't used the option. That's two people so far. Have you used the option?

You and a few others may not be using them, but that doesn't mean that they're not being purchased. People on this very forum have admitted to using MTXs to alleviate GT7s grind. That is exactly what Sony/PD want, especially with the game having a FOMO-based economy.

MTX may be like a gambling addiction. I don't know.

If I may quote myself:

Microtransaction addiction is a very real thing, and it's not just limited to the ultra-wealthy. It's a major reason why a lot of governments have been passing litigation over the years regarding it.

So, those that are strong enough to resist or aren't tempted at all, what's the problem? For many, it's going to be time. Which sucks for those with not enough time and for those who have the time, but would rather not spend certain lengths of time playing.

There are at least two problems:

A) MTXs, and building a game's economy around encouraging MTX purchases, which PD/Sony have very clearly done with GT7, are both incredibly scummy practices. Doubly so when it's implemented in a full-price title, and when the publisher actively hides this element of the game from early reviewers.

B) Even if you don't purchase MTXs, the game's economy being built around them means that you're going to be effected by them in some capacity, as you mentioned above. If you want to play GT7 and actually earn and upgrade cars, your options are either to grind, and/or buy MTXs. If you decide to forgo MTXs completely, than your only option at that point is to grind, which would be somewhat fine if there was a healthy selection of choices in how you went about it. Instead, there are only a handful of races that somewhat pay out a decent amount, and if you decide to deviate from said races at all, then you are actively putting yourself at an objective disadvantage. None of this is helped by the Used Car Dealer and Hagerty dealer very obviously being designed in a way to prey on the FOMO factor, and as such encourage people to buy MTXs.

For those that can't resist clicking to buy large amounts of MTX, I've got no answer.

The answer is to hold PD/Sony accountable for their actions, as @Silver Arrows and other users are. I personally refuse to buy GT7 until the economy is in an actually respectable state, and until the game is put together in a way that respects a users time. Since I also work in a small game store, I also make a point to mention these issues to customers whenever they ask about GT7, so that they can make an informed decision about their purchase. Just because you're aware enough to not fall for scummy practices doesn't mean that you shouldn't call out/hold accountable the people that are attempting to push them onto others.

 

[05XR8]

You and a few others may not be using them, but that doesn't mean that they're not being purchased. People on this very forum have admitted to using MTXs to alleviate GT7s grind. That is exactly what Sony/PD want, especially with the game having a FOMO-based economy.

If I may quote myself:


There are at least two problems:

A) MTXs, and building a game's economy around encouraging MTX purchases, which PD/Sony have very clearly done with GT7, are both incredibly scummy practices. Doubly so when it's implemented in a full-price title, and when the publisher actively hides this element of the game from early reviewers.

B) Even if you don't purchase MTXs, the game's economy being built around them means that you're going to be effected by them in some capacity, as you mentioned above. If you want to play GT7 and actually earn and upgrade cars, your options are either to grind, and/or buy MTXs. If you decide to forgo MTXs completely, than your only option at that point is to grind, which would be somewhat fine if there was a healthy selection of choices in how you went about it. Instead, there are only a handful of races that somewhat pay out a decent amount, and if you decide to deviate from said races at all, then you are actively putting yourself at an objective disadvantage. None of this is helped by the Used Car Dealer and Hagerty dealer very obviously being designed in a way to prey on the FOMO factor, and as such encourage people to buy MTXs.

The answer is to hold PD/Sony accountable for their actions, as @Silver Arrows and other users are. I personally refuse to buy GT7 until the economy is in an actually respectable state, and until the game is put together in a way that respects a users time. Since I also work in a small game store, I also make a point to mention these issues to customers whenever they ask about GT7, so that they can make an informed decision about their purchase. Just because you're aware enough to not fall for scummy practices doesn't mean that you shouldn't call out/hold accountable the people that are attempting to push them onto others.

Call them out. I don't have a problem with that. It's blanketri g all players saying they are forced to use MYX. That putting a bulletin at each race completion is compelling all players to buy MTX.

By all means, if players want to blast PD and not buy this game or warn others, I'm all for that. However, don't go saying because it is there that it's the only way to enjoy the game and that feature makes this the worse GT game.

 

[Inferno251]

No, but it's certainly the most polarising of the series.
There are aspects of GT7 that are amazing and on their own perform well in comparison to previous titles - AI, graphics, physics, menus and car customisation. Only to be outdone by the long-standing problems, most of them having existed since the start of the PS3-era - the broken economy, lack of proper events, and biggest of all, MTX.
It gives me an overall feeling of disappointment with GT7, almost similar to how I felt with previous titles: GTSport, GT6 and especially GT5.

 

[NotThePrez]

By all means, if players and an to blast PD and not buy this game or warn others, I'm all for that. However, don't go saying because it is there that it's the only way to enjoy the game and that feature makes this the worse GT game.

Umm, why not? As mentioned, the game and its economy is very obviously built around MTX purchases, and does everything in its power to encourage them. The grind is also so egregious that if you're someone that doesn't have a lot of time to spare playing and grinding the same few races for cash, then it probably does feel like that splurging on MTXs is the only way to get a good amount of enjoyment out of the game, especially if some of your favorite cars are tied to the UCD or Hagerty Dealer.

Based on that, why can't people call GT7 the worst GT game to date due to those factors? I personally may not agree (and that's only because I've yet to play the game), but I definitely wouldn't blame someone for feeling that way.

 

[05XR8]

Umm, why not? As mentioned, the game and its economy is very obviously built around MTX purchases, and does everything in its power to encourage them. The grind is also so egregious that if you're someone that doesn't have a lot of time to spare playing and grinding the same few races for cash, then it probably does feel like that splurging on MTXs is the only way to get a good amount of enjoyment out of the game, especially if some of your favorite cars are tied to the UCD or Hagerty Dealer.

Based on that, why can't people call GT7 the worst GT game to date due to those factors? I personally may not agree (and that's only because I've yet to play the game), but I definitely wouldn't blame someone for feeling that way.

Right. I got quoted for bringing up customisation. So, anyone that brings up customisation, I don't blame them for feeling this is not the worse in the series.

 

[ScottPuss20]

PD must have screwed it up then, as after going back to GT Sport this week, the first thing I noticed is that my cars turn much better. Less understeer without spinning out, at least in GR.3. At launch GT7 many GR.3 cars were undriveable on controller. I tried a few at Daytona and the slightest steering input at T1 made many simply spin out, some not turn at all. (The couple I could afford that is, no rent option yet and low on credits. Takes over 10 hours of online races to earn one GR.3 car)

They patched it too much the other direction though, now GT7 feels rather dull to drive. Especially since grass and kerbs are still much more forgiving, which makes online racing quite a lot worse. People are far less careful not to go off track. In GT7 the track often feels like a suggestion than where you need to keep your car inside the lines.

GT Sport is still better. GT7 still has many problems with the road cars while BoP is much worse for the daily races.

Dull? Are you even playing the same game?

 

[kjeldsen]

If you genuinely don't believe that GT7 isn't built around MTX, then you need to take another serious look at it.

Its painstakingly clear that this game is designed like a F2P game in a way to PUSH people towards MTX. No one is forced to buy them but its so damn obvious that the game is designed to make players want to buy them.

I too, have not purchased MTX and I never will, as that is who I am. But others than do participate in MTX purchases in general, will feel the pressure to buy in this game and are likely to do so.

Lets pretend that you are right, then it's the single worst example of any game ever made with microtransactions. There is nothing in the game that is locked behind using real money. Everything can be achieved by playing the game.

And the main part, the credits, are so stupid expensive that it's really not a valid option except for the very very few that just doesn't care.

REAL microtransactions are just that M I C R O , small amounts of money spend constantly to get endless items or content during the life span of a game. The freaking exact opposite of credits in GT7, some jobs pay worse than playing the game. GT-Sport did a much better version with cars that could be bought for a small amount of hard earned cash.

"bUtt LeganARDAy CArz arE sO ExpENisve" exactly, if PD wanted to earn cash with these cars they would sell them for a few dollars on the PS-Store. No one is going to spend $200 on a car or for that matter thousands of dollars.

So why did they do it? Honestly i have no idea but i think it is very PD, imho it's beyond stupid and as many have said goes against the "car collector" theme, but from GT-Sport i learned that PD is very keen on the Unicorns. Those super rare cars are not something they give away, in GT-Sport it was pretty much impossible to get just one car by playing the game (Sport mode) and they were NEVER for sale on PS-Store. I just think they want us to earn them the hard way. But with 260 million required they should REALLY work on the payouts.


With all the shortcomings and stupid legendary cars, lack of events and blabla, the core of the game is unmatched in the GT-Series, why would i go back and play the older games when it's so much more rewarding to drive cars in this game.

 

[Cayit]

They should called the game actually GT CAFE...
...after you finished the Menu Books the game was almost Finished!

 

[Scaff]

Lets pretend that you are right, then it's the single worst example of any game ever made with microtransactions. There is nothing in the game that is locked behind using real money. Everything can be achieved by playing the game.

And the main part, the credits, are so stupid expensive that it's really not a valid option except for the very very few that just doesn't care.

REAL microtransactions are just that M I C R O , small amounts of money spend constantly to get endless items or content during the life span of a game. The freaking exact opposite of credits in GT7, some jobs pay worse than playing the game. GT-Sport did a much better version with cars that could be bought for a small amount of hard earned cash.

"bUtt LeganARDAy CArz arE sO ExpENisve" exactly, if PD wanted to earn cash with these cars they would sell them for a few dollars on the PS-Store. No one is going to spend $200 on a car or for that matter thousands of dollars.

So why did they do it? Honestly i have no idea but i think it is very PD, imho it's beyond stupid and as many have said goes against the "car collector" theme, but from GT-Sport i learned that PD is very keen on the Unicorns. Those super rare cars are not something they give away, in GT-Sport it was pretty much impossible to get just one car by playing the game (Sport mode) and they were NEVER for sale on PS-Store. I just think they want us to earn them the hard way. But with 260 million required they should REALLY work on the payouts.


With all the shortcomings and stupid legendary cars, lack of events and blabla, the core of the game is unmatched in the GT-Series, why would i go back and play the older games when it's so much more rewarding to drive cars in this game.

Microtransactions have been far from micro for a long, long time, they moved (across a wide range of titles) to being more expensive years ago, and guess what? They are every bit as effective, actually more effective.

Just take a look at the likes of World of Tanks and it's ilk and you will see exactly where PD/Sony got this practice from, the key difference however is that this is in a full priced AAA title and they are Free-To-Play.

If you don't think that PD have done the maths on this, the you're honestly being naïve about it.

Industry data shows that 50% of MTX revenue comes from just 0.15% of the games audience, and to quote myself from another thread, which addresses why higher cost MTX work better than lower cost ones:

"Sony will have crunched the numbers on this, zero chance that hasn't happened and what we have, is what they see as the model most likely to bring them the highest additional revenue for the title, and they will have based it on what people spent on GTS MTX. They will know how many spent, what they spent in total, what the highest spends were and what the max spend percentile was and how much they spent each.

If we take the GTA V example, they have circa 33 million on-line players, and made $600 million in microtransaction revenue in 2019, that works out to be 495,000 people (0.15%) spending $300 million (50%) which is $606 as an average for each one. If Sony could match that spend in GT7, and it sold say 10 million copies, that's just shy of $90 million from the 0.15% and $180 million in total. 70% @ $2.49 is just under $17.5 million for comparison.

Now you and I might not spend $606 on MTX (well I know for a fact I never would), but their are people out there who will, it might be in large chucks, it might be broken up over the course of a year or two, but they most certainly exist, and 0.15% is a low target to need to hit to get a huge revenue.

It's not unreasonable for Sony to conclude that if Rockstar can get those kind of spends out of GTAV, they should be able to get them out of GT7, particularly given the similarity in pricing and approach both have to MTXs."
Original Post

Simply put higher cost MTXs bring in more revenue from a smaller audience that lower cost MTXs do from a wider audience, the problem for every player is that the in-game economy then sucks for everyone, well unless GT7 is the only title you play and your happy to grind for hours each day, personally I'm not. Titles with better physics, better curated single player and better functioning on-line experiences exist.

Gran Turismo was never going to be a major draw for me, it simply doesn't have the depth in the areas that I look for, but what it could have been is a pleasant alternative when I wanted something more relaxed to spend my time with, however due to the way it's designed, it fails to do that, as such I now pretty much only fire it up to see what changes each update has brought.

 

[Silverfox1984]

Despite it's flaws I do find myself returning to it now and again. Car customisation and livery editing are done brilliantly, but the main issue is there's very little to do. Most of the races are limiting in their requirements (ONLY american cars for American tracks, PP limits etc)

Obvs the way around this is the custom race, but the rewards you receive really are pitiable that it makes the practice worthless in the pursuit of credits to buy more cars, the whole purpose of the game. There needs to be, in future updates, more races with differing variety and accessiblity, maybe even a custom CHAMPIONSHIP option, because for those of us who don't really care about Sport mode, racing the same limited number of tracks with 'specific requirements' cars gets old quick.

 

[danjama]

This - Kaz said when the Fisherman's Ranch grind got nerf'd that he didn't want people grinding the same events over and over. Fast forward 2 months and there's only a few more events, and everyone's grinding them still.

It was ********. He wanted it to be harder to earn credits so people would buy microtransactions.

 

[EceliN]

definitly worst gt game ever i dont play it anymore till its getting better or i will sell it mayb

 

[kjeldsen]

Microtransactions have been far from micro for a long, long time, they moved (across a wide range of titles) to being more expensive years ago, and guess what? They are every bit as effective, actually more effective.

Just take a look at the likes of World of Tanks and it's ilk and you will see exactly where PD/Sony got this practice from, the key difference however is that this is in a full priced AAA title and they are Free-To-Play.

If you don't think that PD have done the maths on this, the you're honestly being naïve about it.

Industry data shows that 50% of MTX revenue comes from just 0.15% of the games audience, and to quote myself from another thread, which addresses why higher cost MTX work better than lower cost ones:

"Sony will have crunched the numbers on this, zero chance that hasn't happened and what we have, is what they see as the model most likely to bring them the highest additional revenue for the title, and they will have based it on what people spent on GTS MTX. They will know how many spent, what they spent in total, what the highest spends were and what the max spend percentile was and how much they spent each.

If we take the GTA V example, they have circa 33 million on-line players, and made $600 million in microtransaction revenue in 2019, that works out to be 495,000 people (0.15%) spending $300 million (50%) which is $606 as an average for each one. If Sony could match that spend in GT7, and it sold say 10 million copies, that's just shy of $90 million from the 0.15% and $180 million in total. 70% @ $2.49 is just under $17.5 million for comparison.

Now you and I might not spend $606 on MTX (well I know for a fact I never would), but their are people out there who will, it might be in large chucks, it might be broken up over the course of a year or two, but they most certainly exist, and 0.15% is a low target to need to hit to get a huge revenue.

It's not unreasonable for Sony to conclude that if Rockstar can get those kind of spends out of GTAV, they should be able to get them out of GT7, particularly given the similarity in pricing and approach both have to MTXs."
Original Post

Simply put higher cost MTXs bring in more revenue from a smaller audience that lower cost MTXs do from a wider audience, the problem for every player is that the in-game economy then sucks for everyone, well unless GT7 is the only title you play and your happy to grind for hours each day, personally I'm not. Titles with better physics, better curated single player and better functioning on-line experiences exist.

Gran Turismo was never going to be a major draw for me, it simply doesn't have the depth in the areas that I look for, but what it could have been is a pleasant alternative when I wanted something more relaxed to spend my time with, however due to the way it's designed, it fails to do that, as such I now pretty much only fire it up to see what changes each update has brought.

GTA, World of Tanks and War Thunder are completely different animals any comparison to them are farfetched and wrong, you pay to win in those games, that are not comparable to a game like GT7 where the most expensive cars are basically for show. You grind for literally days/weeks to get stuff in War Thunder the same goes for GTA Online, pay to win or grind endlessly to get the most powerful items.

in GT7 you can drive for 1 hour (and have fun doing it) and buy pretty much any car except the show cars.

Do you have any links to back up your data, it's an interesting subject.

 

[Scaff]

GTA, World of Tanks and War Thunder are completely different animals any comparison to them are farfetched and wrong, you pay to win in those games, that are not comparable to a game like GT7 where the most expensive cars are basically for show. You grind for literally days/weeks to get stuff in War Thunder the same goes for GTA Online, pay to win or grind endlessly to get the most powerful items.

So to get the best/most exclusive gear you either grind or you pay?

Hate to break it to you, but that's exactly the same model that GT7 is using.

in GT7 you can drive for 1 hour (and have fun doing it) and buy pretty much any car except the show cars.

Goalposts being moved, you can't suddenly exclude content that suffers from the worst of the grind and argue that the economies fine!

Do you have any links to back up your data, it's an interesting subject.

The thread I linked to has numerous sources, but the main one (0.15% audience = 50% revenue) is well established, as is the amount of revenue MTXs bring in.

Microtransactions In Video Games - Intelligent Economist

The Economics of Microtransactions: how the monetization strategy of video games have evolved into tricking users to spend more money.

www.intelligenteconomist.com

The chances that PD/Sony have pulled this model out of thin air is zero, it's the major revenue source for them and will be calculated and considered in detail. That much is clear just from looking at the credit break-points the offer for the MTX and the fact that the offer better 'value' the more you buy, something that exists only to encourage people to buy the higher value packs. PD/Sony don't get better economies of scale when creating these, they literally cost they nothing to make and sell, the increasing 'value' for the buyer only exists as a practice to get people to spend more money.

 

[kjeldsen]

So to get the best/most exclusive gear you either grind or you pay?

Hate to break it to you, but that's exactly the same model that GT7 is using.

Goalposts being moved, you can't suddenly exclude content that suffers from the worst of the grind and argue that the economies fine!

The thread I linked to has numerous sources, but the main one (0.15% audience = 50% revenue) is well established, as is the amount of revenue MTXs bring in.

Microtransactions In Video Games - Intelligent Economist

The Economics of Microtransactions: how the monetization strategy of video games have evolved into tricking users to spend more money.

www.intelligenteconomist.com

The chances that PD/Sony have pulled this model out of thin air is zero, it's the major revenue source for them and will be calculated and considered in detail. That much is clear just from looking at the credit break-points the offer for the MTX and the fact that the offer better 'value' the more you buy, something that exists only to encourage people to buy the higher value packs. PD/Sony don't get better economies of scale when creating these, they literally cost they nothing to make and sell, the increasing 'value' for the buyer only exists as a practice to get people to spend more money.

Are you playing the games you post about or just making stuff up?
In War Thunder you pay your way to the top in MP, that is the classic F2P model, it doesn't compare to GT7
Same goes for GTA Online everything you need to survive costs millions unless you take advantage of bugs, it doesn't compare to GT7
Just that you use these games as the basis for your argument makes it now only flawed, but wrong.

And i am not moving goalposts, i never argued that the economy for Unicorns are fine i argued that PD never meant for them to be easy to get. Your argument is that because 0.15% of all GT7 players will pay for them PD made them practically unavailable for the other 99.85% because in games where you have to pay to win players will spend stupid amounts of money.

 

[Grayfox]

I dont get why they went with this "Menu Books" concept instead of the classic doing races and having a progressive game play.

 

[MCL1974]

i just saw Chuupagetti getting a three second penalty on his stream for ignoring yellow flags.
But the guy that crashed did so when actually entering the pits!!!
How silly is it that you get a penalty for ignoring yellow flags when the car you 'overtake' is the car that actually crashed?
How bad have you made a game when you get penalties for that? it is just stupid!

 

[Scaff]

Are you playing the games you post about or just making stuff up?
In War Thunder you pay your way to the top in MP, that is the classic F2P model, it doesn't compare to GT7
Same goes for GTA Online everything you need to survive costs millions unless you take advantage of bugs, it doesn't compare to GT7
Just that you use these games as the basis for your argument makes it now only flawed, but wrong.

It doesn't compare directly to GT7, that's doesn't make a comparison invalid at all. All of them have content that is locked behind a choice of a heavy grind or real money, and GTA uses a model for currency conversion that GT7 has pretty much ripped off directly.

What 'you do with what you obtain' and the 'mechanism to obtaining' it do not have to both match for a comparison on the 'mechanism to obtain' to be valid. That's why MTXs work across so many titles and genres!

That it's not an exact 1:1 match isn't the debunk you think it is.

And i am not moving goalposts, i never argued that the economy for Unicorns are fine

That you excluded them from a discussion around MTXs and the in-game economy is moving the goalposts.

i argued that PD never meant for them to be easy to get.

Harder than in previous titles (unless you pay), and increasingly so, not just to own, but also to run. It literally takes longer to obtain some single cars in GT7 than it does to fully complete some games, all with a nice shortcut if you get your wallet out. A fact that utterly undoes your claim that PD never meant for them to be easy to get, as if I open my wallet up the are very, very, very easy to get!

Your argument is that because 0.15% of all GT7 players will pay for them PD made them practically unavailable for the other 99.85% because in games where you have to pay to win players will spend stupid amounts of money.

Nope, my argument is that the entire in-game economy in GT7 is designed to drive people towards MTX as a shortcut, and that the game balance suffers as a direct result of that design.

Arguing that's not the case flies in the face of some pretty clear evidence, from the increased cost pretty much across the board of not just cars but also modifying and maintaining those cars, the FOMO mechanics (that can be bypassed via MTX), the massively watered down daily marathon rewards, the linking of Legendary cars to a price increase mechanic (that doesn't just affect the cars, but also maintaining those cars), the low-pay-outs for events (particularly on-line and custom), the locking of high-pay-out events into the 'one-and-done' missions area, the different Credit limit cap for paid vs earned in-game currency, the consistent approach to nerfing high-pay-out grinds that player discover, the artificial 'value' built into buying more expensive credit packs, and the in your face offer to buy them in multiple screens. Add onto that the fact that PD /Sony also deliberately hid the extent and cost of MTXs from reviewers at launch and you have to practice some spectacular mental gymnastics to come to any other conclusion than it's by design.

The economy in GT7 is built around MTXs, and for those who don't use them and have neither the time nor the patience for the grind it results in a game design and experience that suffers as a result, a fact that has been picked up by the wider gaming media. PD/Sony deserve to join the list of companies that get called out for this practice, and deserve to be considered among the worst offenders for using them within a full price title.

 

[NotThePrez]

Are you playing the games you post about or just making stuff up?
In War Thunder you pay your way to the top in MP, that is the classic F2P model,...

...or you grind thousands of hours to go from basic starter machines to top-tier aircraft, ships and vehicles. You also have to grind to pay for vehicle upgrades (I believe that most jets don't come with Flare Countermeasures by default, and you have to pay for them with in-game credits)...

it doesn't compare to GT7

...and it's just like GT7. You either pay for MTXs to alleviate the grind (a la War Thunder), or grind countless hours to get what you want. The only significant differences is that GT7 (thankfully) doesn't have a Premium Account option that you pay actual money for, nor does it have a selection of premium vehicles that earn more money and XP compared to vanilla.

Same goes for GTA Online everything you need to survive costs millions unless you take advantage of bugs, it doesn't compare to GT7

On the contrary, GTA Online's MTX model is probably the closest comparison to GT7's MTX model. In both game, almost all content is available for "free," but both games have their economy set up in a way to where getting items without MTXs means committing to a totally ridiculous grind, and both games also go out of their way to reguarly remind you of MTXs existing.

Also, neither GTA or GT7 are Free-2-Play games, despite having economies commonly found in such titles, and up until recently, a significant portion of GT7 players were infact taking advantage of a bug to get ahead of the economy. So, the GTA-GT7 comparison is not as off as you are trying to make it out to be.

Right. I got quoted for bringing up customisation. So, anyone that brings up customisation, I don't blame them for feeling this is not the worse in the series.

So what of the players that don't care about customization, or at the very least (much like myself) don't see customization as the end-all-be-all of what makes a good game? Also, customization is till tied to the poor economy in some fashion, because you still need in-game credits to take advantage of it.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I specifically said GT1 and you've mentioned every game except GT1. And you've just cherry picked bits and pieces out of every other game, like GT2 having more cars. What about online, livery editor and scapes?

Maybe you're too young to remember the context in which GT1 released. Maybe you are viewing it in the context of subsequent titles, which is somewhat, fair, but you can't divorce it from it's launch context, because most of GT7's criticisms are within the launch context.

Before GT1, reflective cars did not exist. At the time, 140 cars and 11 tracks was mind blowing!!! We saw teaser videos and all believed that they were faked, because it was graphically impossible for a PS1 to be that good! Before GT1, the world did not know about the Nissan Skyline!

GT1 changed the landscape of racing as a genre. It changed the landscape of video games in many respects. There is a definite "before Gran Turismo" and "after Gran Turismo". So, Although I wouldn't rank it as "the best" given what has come after it, ranking it the worst denies it's world changing effect.

Please show me this in regards to GT1.

So, again, in context, you have to compare like things. The world in which GT1 was launched and the world GT7 was launched.

Strictly speaking, no, obviously you could not "do more" in GT1 than in GT7, but it was also technically impossible for GT1 to do much more. You could not play GT1 online, as an example, because it was an impossibility at the time. Also, GT7 exists on the back of the greatness of GT1.

Without Gran Turismo 1, it could be argued that the entire history of PlayStation and Sony may not even exist today. It was THAT influential at the time.

Remember, PD was an independent developer back then. What they did was an astronomical achievement, and that's not fanboy praise. It changed everything. (Edit, I have been corrected on this one, they were not independent)

Edit: Oh and FYI, I hated B-Spec and found it pointless and boring so it did little to add to the games for me.

Ok, and some hate Sport Mode, while some hate the lobbies, and some hate scapes, and some hate the single player. Personally disliking the content doesn't mean it can be omitted. Personally, I found B-spec it more enjoyable than the single player races.

GT7 has larger grids and better ai than most of those titles.

Larger grids, yes. Better AI, I'd say that's a tough one. Previous titles could not technically achieve more because of the hardware, so from an achievement standpoint, it's on par. The AI is about as good as it was in 5/6/Sport although, as I've said many times, it's the implementation that is lacking.

It has online multiplayer, as did GT Sport.

As did GT5 and GT6, but those lobbies were better.

The audio and graphics are now also leaps and bounds ahead.

Ahead of? If you compare like things, and you can since GT7 is still on the PS4, allowing for a head to head with it's predecessor, it's on par. It's a little better graphically in the menus. It's pretty much the same in game.

We have changeable weather and time of day too.

GT6 had this

And which title was it that had premium and standard cars (disgraceful!)? I haven’t played any of my other games since GT7 released. That was never the case with any previous GT title (or any other game), so yes, for me this is unequivocally the best GT to date.

But I have never shelved a GT title before, so tastes differ. I farm credits now in the hope that it improves. The last update made Sport Mode framerate on PS4 atrocious. Hey, but to each his own, we're here to compare.


So what is the "hook" of GT7. As in what is the big development that makes it a special "must have" game?

GT1 - It was a world changer (I covered this)
GT2 - It had 650 cars. Most games still had like 10-12 cars...650? At the time, that was a mind blowing number. Assuming you got the got the fixed version of the game. The broken version was, well, broken, so 650 cars didn't do you much good, but still.
GT3 - At the time, it was the most complete game at the time. Graphics physics, you name it. That's why it's the best seller.
GT4 - The dawn of B-Spec - Love it or hate it, it was something unseen in the genre. Also, still regarded as the best GT ever, and that people still think that, in light of what has come after, is pretty impressive.
GT5 - Online. This changed so much. It cannot be understated. It's seems like NBD now
GT6 - This is where they start to slide. The big deal of 6 was real time tessellation. It helped the game graphically, but it's a pretty esoteric item for most.
GTSport - The DR/SR penalty system and Sport Mode - Love it or hate it, they went full eSports, which has become a pretty big deal in the world of games.

GT7 - ..........? I'm not being a troll or in any way facetious when I say that I can't say what the hook of GT7 is. I love the Widebody, but is that really a "hook".

If people are enjoying GT7, that's fine. There's no crime in liking the game. No one is trying to convince you that you are wrong for liking this game but the thread and discussion is about whether it's becoming the worst of the bunch, and there is some pretty compelling evidence to that say it is. Not the worst game ever created. Not the worst game available at the moment. Not even the worst racing game, but, given the history of achievement in this franchise, it's definitely underachieving in many ways.

OH geez, look at the time

PS

Harder than in previous titles (unless you pay), and increasingly so, not just to own, but also to run. It literally takes longer to obtain some single cars in GT7 than it does to fully complete some games, all with a nice shortcut if you get your wallet out. A fact that utterly undoes your claim that PD never meant for them to be easy to get, as if I open my wallet up the are very, very, very easy to get!

As @Scaff eloquently points out, the one truly defining element of GT is the MTX.

The front and center progress bar for this game is the Collector Level. This is increased by owning cars. A player could literally buy his way to completing the game without ever turning a wheel, if they so choose. The Microtransactions is this game's claim to fame unless someone can find something that I am missing.

 

[Scaff]

Remember, PD was an independent developer back then.

Nope, they have always been a first party Sony Studio.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Nope, they have always been a first party Sony Studio.

I'm having a Mandella effect moment. I looked it up and you are correct, but I totally remember them being an acquisition after Omega Boost came out and Sony wanted them dedicated to Gran Turismo...crazy how memory works. I would have bet my life on it.

 

[kjeldsen]

...or you grind thousands of hours to go from basic starter machines to top-tier aircraft, ships and vehicles. You also have to grind to pay for vehicle upgrades (I believe that most jets don't come with Flare Countermeasures by default, and you have to pay for them with in-game credits)...

...and it's just like GT7. You either pay for MTXs to alleviate the grind (a la War Thunder), or grind countless hours to get what you want. The only significant differences is that GT7 (thankfully) doesn't have a Premium Account option that you pay actual money for, nor does it have a selection of premium vehicles that earn more money and XP compared to vanilla.

On the contrary, GTA Online's MTX model is probably the closest comparison to GT7's MTX model. In both game, almost all content is available for "free," but both games have their economy set up in a way to where getting items without MTXs means committing to a totally ridiculous grind, and both games also go out of their way to reguarly remind you of MTXs existing.

Also, neither GTA or GT7 are Free-2-Play games, despite having economies commonly found in such titles, and up until recently, a significant portion of GT7 players were infact taking advantage of a bug to get ahead of the economy. So, the GTA-GT7 comparison is not as off as you are trying to make it out to be.

Again orange to apples, without the right gear you can't compete in those games. If we stretched it you need certain cars in GT7 if you want to compete online, but that argument was killed when PD introduced rental cars.

Which leaves us with glorified expensive skins in the Legendary shop.

 

[NotThePrez]

Again orange to apples, without the right gear you can't compete in those games.

We're not talking about what you can/can't do, we're talking about each games' individual MTX and economy models, and how they compare. Sure, you don't exactly need the Ford Mk. IV to beat the game (unless you're going for the Platinum Trophy or trying to boost your collector score), but it doesn't take away from the fact that the model that PD has chose to get to that goal or similar is clear as day inspired by games like GTA.

If we stretched it you need certain cars in GT7 if you want to compete online,...

Which means that there is at least some incentive to splurg on MTXs if that is a player's goal.

.. but that argument was killed when PD introduced rental cars.

That depends. Do rental cars come with pre-installed upgrades, or are they stock? Can you adjust their settings? And are the cars available for rent typically among the fastest cars available? I do remember in GT Sport that in a lot of online events, if you didn't have the right car, you were probably not going to be competitive. I can 100% see PD/Sony using that as a vehicle to incentivize MTX purchases.

Which leaves us with glorified expensive skins in the Legendary shop.

Which can and is used as another draw for potential whales, because the cars in the Legendary shop tend to be some of the more exclusive items in the game, and are only available for a short amount of time. They may not be the best/fastest vehicles, but their manufactured rarity plays a part in their desirability, and as such drives the desire To purchase MTXs to grab them. This is the FOMO part of the economy at work.

Again, this really isn't an out-there comparison. The core structure of each games' model is damn-near indistinguishable. It seems that you just refuse to recognize it for some reason.

Also, don't think I didn't miss you ignoring my comparison between people glitching in GTA and people using the Tomahawk glitch in GT7.

 

[Samus]

Again orange to apples, without the right gear you can't compete in those games.

Why are you focusing on "pay to win"? Nobody said GT7 was pay to win like those games. They're saying that they are the same in that they offer X in the game and to get it you either pay, or grind for a ridiculous amount of time. Whether you actually need those items is besides the point. The simple, core game design around MTs is the same.