- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
Looks like the migrant "invasion" has begun as large groups of migrants rush the border.
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Latin American Caravan(s) Headed for Southern U.S. Border
- Thread starter Johnnypenso
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zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
Within all the chaos, I find something weird on that one particular person holding a flag of Guatemala while crossing the border into the USA.
If it's not a flag of Guatemala or any other country, I take back what I said. But it looks like one.
- 24,658
- Anoka, MN
Part of me wants Trump to just say they are more than welcome, but don't expect any government aid. It would be sort of like a dog chasing a car or their own tail, they're determined as hell to get it, but don't have a clue what to do in the event they actually achieve their goal.
If it is a foreign flag, I'm sure Trump will use it as "proof" that it's really an invasion.
If it is a foreign flag, I'm sure Trump will use it as "proof" that it's really an invasion.
- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
I've said from the beginning amongst my friends that these people got some bad advice or maybe none at all. If they wanted to up their chances, they should have been waving American flags from the beginning and when they got a chance on the mic they should have appealed directly to Trump with some sob stories or just play on his ego. "Oh Senor President Trump, please help us, we only want to work in the great United States of America! You are a great man and you can help us" They should have played to public opinion instead of running around with their own country's flags and chanting about Guatemala or Honduras.
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Oh no the "invasion" has begun. Hide your women and children.
If you captioned the video with "black Friday 2018" it wouldnt even look that chaotic.
zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
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False equivalence I believe that's called.
Looks like the Mexican government is taking action:
The group were rounded up after trying to cross the border “violently” and “illegally” on Sunday, the [Mexican] ministry said in a statement.
Video footage shows dozens of people – including women and children – running towards the fence that separates the two countries near the city of Tijuana.
They were repelled by tear gas used by US border officers.
Mexico’s interior ministry said all those who were identified as having tried to cross would be deported immediately.
It added that “far from helping their objectives”, the migrants’ actions had violated the legal migration framework and could have led to a “serious incident”.
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zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
Is that what's in the video? AFAIK the status or right of asylum hasn't been legally granted.
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Perhaps a black friday deal we are unaware of?
Jokes aside. I am curious though are those mobs on black friday in the USA illegal? I think the situation is similar in the sense that people were getting anxious and impatient to get in. As I understand in US law they are allowed to request asylum regardless of how they enter the country. This was also decided in district court by us district judge concerning Trump's demand that asylum seekers from the caravan must enter the US through one of 26 legal ports.
https://www.businessinsider.nl/judg...rant-caravan-2018-11/?international=true&r=US
Multiple factors have played with their decision to storm the border. But as I understand the border is overwhelmed and cant process the asylum petitions quick enough. Which makes me wonder if it wasnt smarter to have sent a few hundred personnel and judges to proces the asylum seekers then 5k military? Which reportedly cost 200 million dollars
https://www.businessinsider.nl/border-closed-after-groups-of-migrants-stormed-us-border-2018-11/
But i do think it is a bit confusing if its legal to ask asylum with no requirements of how you enter, but it is illegal to cross the border outside the ports of entry.
zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
Perhaps a black friday deal we are unaware of?
Jokes aside. I am curious though are those mobs on black friday in the USA illegal? I think the situation is similar in the sense that people were getting anxious and impatient to get in. As I understand in US law they are allowed to request asylum regardless of how they enter the country.
It's not illegal what happens on black frinday, but it can lead to crimes being commited in the midst of the chaos, as usually happens. But Walmart and other companies don't do anything illegal by opening its doors to people who want to buy their stuff.
It's not a similar situation though. Walmart is inviting their customers. The USA, as a state, is not welcoming the illegal migrants. And even if that happens, it won't welcome them in mobs, crossing the border like they did. "I was tired of waiting." isn't a good argument in a court of law either.
Also, I've read last week that a good part of the people didn't even bring their ID with them. That's simply dumb. Who would try to go into another country and not carry their legal ID? It's not like they're fleeing from a war zone.
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- 5,588
- Dahlonega, GA
- ryzno
We could have, but they showed they don't care about any laws when they ripped down Mexico's border walls.
As said, waving their countries flag and chanting about THEIR country and throwing rocks isn't a good image.
I look at them as they don't care to become American. They simply want in.
- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
So is shopping.
- 5,051
- Netherlands
That was my point. Those mobs arent doing anythin illegal (yet). When they start harming people, stealing, destroying property then they are breaking the law.
The USA as a country, by law, welcomes asylum seekers. You are labelling them something they havent comitted yet.
I dont know how the situation is in their country of origin, but in a lot of poorer countries owning an ID isnt self-evident.
That is a bit of an exagaration. It is destroying property, but I dont think it is proof that they dont care about any laws. It isnt dissimilar from black friday a mob of impatient people destroying security doors while trying to enter a shop. Or rocks thrown at a demonstration. Seeking asylum is not illegal.
That said, It was enormously stupid what they did and a good thing that there were no serious injuries. But hardly an invasion that requires 5k armed military. And those involved with rockthrowing should be punished accordingly.
But coming back to the point of how Trump was clearly blatantly lying to the public and exaggerating the threat of the caravan as a political ploy to scare voters.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/22/fact-check-trumps-claims-migrant-caravan
How can people let a public figure lie so much without accountability?
- 31,738
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- Dennisch
It amazes me that you are still surprised by lying politicians.
Here's another shocker for you: All politicians lie.
zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
It's just as illegal for those people entering the USA soil without permission as it is for me to catch a plane to the USA without a visa. I get there and I won't leave the international zone/area/terrotory of the airport. If I try to force myself out of the airport into US territory, that'll be a crime.
If I'd pull the "I'm searching for asylum" card, that wouldn't make it less of a crime. I'd still have to wait for the authorities to address my situation and the veracity of my claims to decide if I could or couldn't get to enter the country legally.
I understand that's hard to do that with a lof of poeple at the same time, especially when they bring children. That's why everything has to be tougher and not more relaxed imo. A moral compass is great but can't stump the Law, because the law is the same for everyone, moral opinions about what to do about these - difficult - situations is not.
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That isnt the amazement. The amazement of how often he lies. It is already through the roof.
He lies 5,5 times a day on average. He is probably lying more then he is telling the truth.
And this is only from 2017:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/14/opinion/sunday/trump-lies-obama-who-is-worse.html
I understand your point. However these people have walked thousands of miles (and not a plain) to claim asylum. It is not fair to assume they are using a "i am searching for asylum card". If they are claiming asylum for good reasons is for the court to decide. There is a system already in place to handle this. there are flaws, but there is no perfect system concerning the handling of refugees.
edit: added comment @zzz_pt
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zzz_pt
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I can empathize with the fact that these people walked thousands of miles. But I doubt the claim that asylum seeking is their primary objective. I don't think it isn't. Panama and Costa Rica are probably the safest countries in Central America (probably the best to live too), they speak spanish, they were closer, and the caravan still decided to walk up to the USA. The reason they went to the USA border is not because they need asylum, but because there's more money than in Panama or Costa Rica and because they can get more attention.
Their countries aren't at war either. The issue is quite complex and I'm not an expert. But for decades the people from central and south american countries have chosen and voted for politicians who make their countries very bad places to live. If Panama can give a decent life to their citizens and grow their economy, other countries should be able do it too. Now, the USA or any other country does not have to take citizens from other countries that keep supporting dumb and corrupt leaders.
I mean, the USA has already a great deal of people supporting the most stupid ideas we can possibly imagine... no need to take in more.
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- 5,051
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I can empathyze with the fact that these people walked thousands of miles. But I doubt the claim that asylum seeking is their primary objective. I don't think it isn't. Panama and Costa Rica are probably the safest countries in Central America (probably the best to live too), they speak spanish, they were closer, and the caravan still decided to walk up to the USA. The reason they went to the USA border is not because they need asylum, but because there's more money than in Panama or Costa Rica and because they can get more attention.
Their countries aren't at war either. The issue is quite complex and I'm not an expert. But for decades the people from central and south american countries have chosen and voted for politicians who make their countries very bad places to live. If Panama can give a decent life to their citizens and grow their economy, other countries should be able do it too. Now, the USA or any other country does not have to take citizens from other countries that keep supporting dumb and corrupt leaders.
I mean, the USA has already a great deal of people supporting the most stupid ideas we can possibly imagine... no need to take in more.
If they fail to give good reasons for seeking asylum they will be deported. So I fail to see the problem. They anounced their intention to apply for asylum legally. And they are choosing to travel to go to a country that has his own dumb and corrupt leader, that dislikes immigrants a lot.
If they are there for false motives then deport them. However dont assume they are coming for the wrong reasons. that is the narrative that the Trump white house actively propagated.
zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
Wanting to move to the USA to work and get money is not a wrong reason in itself. But I think it's the primary reason, and not geting refugee status. That's why I brought up Panama and Costa Rica which are countries that in all aspects are closer/more familliar to the people at the US border. I also don't know for sure if refugees or migrants are safer or have a better life in the USA than they would have in Panama or Costa Rica for instance.
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Maybe it would have been smarter to not try and seek asylum at the exact same time as thousands of others at a historically prickly border crossing during the presidency of someone who got elected in large part on his promises to essentially shut down the exact same border they are trying to cross.
That's the kind of thing that gets a military deployed to protect the border essentially out of spite, with how much it costs being irrelevant.
zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
Didn't say they don't have. I just replied to your first point comparing a legal thing (black friday madness) to an illegal one (crossing the border in mass, thwoing rocks, taking down physical walls that symbolize the border of a country, etc). That's why I made an anology to me going to the US without a visa. I'd have the right to ask for asylum but I wouldn't be allowed to run out of the airport, skipping the legal procedures. That takes me from someone with a right to ask for asylum to someone doing something illegal.
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I dont think refugees have much choice when to seek asylum. Assuming they are legit refugees. Its not they are picking out their vacation time. And one is consequence of another.
You were referring to the video and I did not see rockthrowing and taking down walls in that specific video. If it did I would agree with you, I so much stated in another post condemning destruction of property and assault.
But my reaction to the post with the video of the bordercrossing is accurate in that they arent doing anything illegal according US law in that video. A judge already stated that they have the right to apply for asylum, regardless of where or how they enter, according to US law. And the caravan has been on its way for a long time, anouncing their plans to seek asylum.
You are assuming they were crossing the border illegally into the US without the plan to seek asylum. They already anounced they were planning to seek asylum and this took place at a bordercrossing. What thing where they doing illegally? They are charging an entrance because they were impatient and frustrated, much like black friday shoppers. Sitting in the cold with a mob of people waiting, hungry and being physical. that in itself is not illegal.
If they crossed the border and then decided to enter the country without seeking asylum, then he/she would be an illegal immigrant and not before.
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I understand them traveling in such numbers. I understand why they are seeking media attention borne out of that. You're not wrong on any of that.
But anyone in the caravan that actually expected that being thousands of people deep instead of the hundred or so the border can actually deal with at a time would lead to anything but the federal government deliberately dragging their feet processing asylum claims and viewing them as a military threat is an idiot. They know who the president of this country is. They know what he's said on the topic in the past. They know how he has dealt with this once already. That's why I responded to your post the way I did. Setting up the border to process more asylum claims more efficiently and faster was never going to happen. Marching the military to the border was guaranteed to happen, and it made no difference how much more it cost to do that instead of the former.
Those are the realities of how the government was always going to handle this, and whether it was smarter to process the claims faster instead of spending more to stonewall is irrelevant when Trump's goal starts and stops at letting as few of them into the country as possible until courts get in his way. If they keep getting restless from being forced to wait because the US government is stonewalling them, causing them to storm the border and get deported back to their home country for the trouble, that's not a loss for him. If they get tired of waiting and are forced to seek asylum in Mexico instead, that's not a loss for him.
That's probably not too terribly safe of an assumption for a sizeable lot of them; and it's only barely relevant to Trump. The question I have is when what will probably be the majority of them are denied asylum and deported, what happens then?
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- 9,401
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- mustafur
Jumping fences is not applying for asylum.
BobK
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They do. They were offered asylum. They refused.
They would also need grounds on which to seek asylum. That I don't believe they have given that they're not fleeing a war zone.
- 5,301
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- MRT_Cinnamon
They were offered asylum here and they refused and busted through our south border
Some will get deported after the mess they caused yesterday, but ideally they all will be gone after they turned against the city's population
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- Johnnypenso
MSNBC (left) reporter on the ground with the Caravan reporting it's mostly men and many he's talked to aren't seeking asylum but are just seeking a better life and to find work.
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