Latin American Caravan(s) Headed for Southern U.S. Border

[Danoff]

I hate the way we're handling this. Of course these people aren't going through the proper asylum process. They're not immigration lawyers. Of course they don't want to stay in Mexico, people flee Mexico to the US. Of course they're being stupid at the border, it's a mob.

It's not like they got here quickly and we couldn't have put a plan in place. We need to be trying to find more ways to let people in, not figure out ways to keep them out. I hear nothing about how to increase legal and safe immigration, and more about building walls and stepping up enforcement and pawning the situation off on Mexico.

The goal should be to try to find a way to help these people, and to find a way to let everyone that wants to come to the US to find work and make a better life for themselves do just that.

 

[ryzno]

The goal should be to try to find a way to help these people, and to find a way to let everyone that wants to come to the US to find work and make a better life for themselves do just that.

How can we do that, when we can't seem to do that for ourselves?

 

[Danoff]

How can we do that, when we can't seem to do that for ourselves?

I don't understand what you mean. What can't we seem to do for ourselves? I didn't say we should provide them with a better life. I said we should let them make their own lives better. We should let them come here, let them find work, and let them make a better life for themselves.

 

[Liquid]

How can we do that, when we can't seem to do that for ourselves?

That's assuming all people see "a better life" the same; a dead end job in a nowhere town would be grateful peace and stability to some people.

And granted I mean some, not all.

 

[Rallywagon]

I can empathize with the fact that these people walked thousands of miles. But I doubt the claim that asylum seeking is their primary objective. I don't think it isn't. Panama and Costa Rica are probably the safest countries in Central America (probably the best to live too), they speak spanish, they were closer, and the caravan still decided to walk up to the USA. The reason they went to the USA border is not because they need asylum, but because there's more money than in Panama or Costa Rica and because they can get more attention.

Their countries aren't at war either. The issue is quite complex and I'm not an expert. But for decades the people from central and south american countries have chosen and voted for politicians who make their countries very bad places to live. If Panama can give a decent life to their citizens and grow their economy, other countries should be able do it too. Now, the USA or any other country does not have to take citizens from other countries that keep supporting dumb and corrupt leaders.

I mean, the USA has already a great deal of people supporting the most stupid ideas we can possibly imagine... no need to take in more.

I would be more incline to say that for decades, those areas have been under the influence of the US since 1904 when TDR came out with the Monroe doctrine. There was the overthrow of the Panamanian governement, the Truman Doctrine, the contra operation so on and so forth. My opinion is that our governement, through interference in those countries elections and governement policies, support of cartels and so one and so forth for decades has created the immigration issues we are facing today.

 

[ryzno]

I don't understand what you mean. What can't we seem to do for ourselves?

Dare I say we seem a little full at the moment?
We can't take care of ourselves. How can we help someone when we can't help ourselves?
I get @Liquid point. They see it as a better life. But the grass isn't exactly greener.

 

[Danoff]

Dare I say we seem a little full at the moment?

You think the US has a population problem? Based on what?

We can't take care of ourselves. How can we help someone when we can't help ourselves?

I don't understand where this sentiment is coming from. You think we have high unemployment? Or you think that we have a low standard of living? Are we struggling with drug cartels that flaunt the law? What exactly is it that we can't seem to do?

How can we help someone? Well we could work on making it easier to immigrate to the US. That would probably cost less than tear gas, walls, and deportation.

 

[ryzno]

You think the US has a population problem?

No, but we can't take care of ourselves, including the illegals already here. Why should we continue to take in people we can't deal with when we have 10's, possibly 100's of thousands of people living in similar "tent cities" like the on in Tijuana currently?

I don't understand where this sentiment is coming from.

I might be angry cause the help I needed was denied when I was homeless...*food stamps
Call me entitled but I've been paying tax since I was 14. God forbid I can get some food.

What exactly is it that we can't seem to do?

Take care of ourselves? *by ourselves I mean American, I don't care the skin color
Very odd edit: I feel like we all are slaves to the system.

 

[Danoff]

No, but we can't take care of ourselves,

I think (I'm not exactly sure here), you mean that the government can't take care of the poor people in this country to the degree that you'd like. To which I'd respond, that's not the government's job, and that demanding that kind of thing is exactly the problem in cases like this. Where people who actually are willing to work (unlike much of America's poor) are denied entry and face guns as a result.

including the illegals already here. Why should we continue to take in people we can't deal with when we have 10's, possibly 100's of thousands of people living in similar "tent cities" like the on in Tijuana currently?

I'm not advocating for letting them come in illegally and holding them in tent cities. I'm advocating for stepping up our LEGAL immigration and Asylum game. I'm pretty sure the existence of "tent cities" holding illegal immigrants actually supports me.

I might be angry cause the help I needed was denied when I was homeless...*food stamps
Call me entitled but I've been paying tax since I was 14. God forbid I can get some food.

Your taxes aren't supposed to pay for food (granted, they do, but that's not what they're for). Why were you denied food stamps? I would say we should deny food stamps to all of these immigrants, and probably all US citizens. There are private soup kitchens that are funded without guns.

Edit:

Also, you have not been paying taxes since you were 14 unless you were earning quite a substantial income at that age. In which case how did you end up homeless?

One other way to pay a tiny bit of tax at age 14 is if your parents claim you as a dependent (which they probably should), in which case you should take it up with them as to whether you actually had a tax burden. You saved them enough money that they should probably kick your federal taxes right back to you.

Very odd edit: I feel like we all are slaves to the system.

Only if you ignore what it means to be a slave. The best example of slavery in the US is our rich - who are forced to provide services to others.

 

[ryzno]

Why were you denied food stamps?

They ask for the last 30 days of check stubs. I just happened to make too much.(I became homeless right after I quit funny enough) And no my dad never had to file for me.

*income tax. My bad

I get what you're saying and I hate government assistance. I guess I hate them cause I feel like I paid in and never got anything when I did need it.

 

[ryzno]

DP, I'm sure but it would go un-noticed...

All of us have been paying into SS right.
A program the government screwed.
We have programs for our Veterans that fought for us, yet they are getting screwed.(IMO)
I know I've referred to myself but those 2 programs show, we can't take care of ourselves. Not to mention all the other failed things the government have done.

 

[Danoff]

DP, I'm sure but it would go un-noticed...

All of us have been paying into SS right.
A program the government screwed.
We have programs for our Veterans that fought for us, yet they are getting screwed.(IMO)
I know I've referred to myself but those 2 programs show, we can't take care of ourselves. Not to mention all the other failed things the government have done.

What does this have to do with immigration? Will the presence of more immigrants cause SS to become less solvent? No, if anything it would bolster SS, which was a flawed concept to start with. Would the presence of more immigrants cause veterans' programs to become less solvent? No, if anything it would bolster those programs.

 

[ryzno]

What does this have to do with immigration? Will the presence of more immigrants cause SS to become less solvent? No, if anything it would bolster SS, which was a flawed concept to start with. Would the presence of more immigrants cause veterans' programs to become less solvent? No, if anything it would bolster those programs.

May I ask how, when they can't get it right with the money they have/had?

 

[Danoff]

May I ask how, when they can't get it right with the money they have/had?

How will those programs be bolstered? Well SS applies to everyone who earns income (as opposed to income tax). So if immigrants (presumably working age, I don't see a lot of retiree types storming the fences) come and get jobs, even low paying ones, they'll be paying SS into the system to help deal with the massive SS draw coming out of the system. So in the short term, it's a benefit to the SS system.

In the long term of course those people will eventually draw benefits. But in the short-run it immigration is an influx of payers without a corresponding parental payee to compensate.

 

[CinnamonOD]

MSNBC (left) reporter on the ground with the Caravan reporting it's mostly men and many he's talked to aren't seeking asylum but are just seeking a better life and to find work.

Hurts to see one of the baseball fields I used to play on as a kid being used for that and the state it is currently.

Don't know if they did anything to it or whatever but I remember the field was regrassed fairly recently

 

[McLaren]

It looks like things really took a turn south when videos came out of these folks leaving behind trash, food, and water that was given to them in Mexico City. Many were definitely not happy to see perfectly good food go to waste bc they didn’t want it or didn’t like it for whatever reason. The scenes of all the garbage left behind was also a nuisance.

It seems even worse with those who live in Tijuana. One video I saw from a resident said they are more than willing to help, but they do not want the refugees littering and causing conflicts as they push towards the border. Some are already telling them to go back bc some started getting violent. I think one man was hit in the face by a rock and retaliated against the refugee who hit him.

 

[CinnamonOD]

It doesn't help to their image that they're using drugs on broad daylight and some have assaulted a few of the people who live inmediately close to the area, including immigrants that we received last year from Africa and Haiti.

 

[PocketZeven]

Jumping fences is not applying for asylum.

In context there are a few thousands refugees and the border entry is only handling 100 asylum applicants or so a day. So I guess people got impatient? If you can confirm they were not going to plan applying after jumping the fence I would agree with you, but without being there it is hard to judge.

They do. They were offered asylum. They refused.

They would also need grounds on which to seek asylum. That I don't believe they have given that they're not fleeing a war zone.

They refused in mexico you mean?

You dont need to be from a warzone to be a refugee. There are international laws and US laws in place that handle that. A judge decides the legitimacy. You cant judge someone refugee status from just looking at them.

 

[Rallywagon]

In context there are a few thousands refugees and the border entry is only handling 100 asylum applicants or so a day. So I guess people got impatient? If you can confirm they were not going to plan applying after jumping the fence I would agree with you, but without being there it is hard to judge.

they know better than to think they can just jump the fence. I highly doubt any of them were/are ignorant of Trumps rhetoric on the subject, nor do I hold any illusion they think jumping the fence, or, as is the actual case, storming the fence and trying to destroy it, is prefectly legit. They are coming to this country specifically for asylum . We have a saying, beggars can't be choosers. They don't get to decide how fast the process works nor are they allowed the choice to circumvent the process. For better or worse, I support the BP agents in using non lethal means to keep the fence and the border secure.

They refused in mexico you mean?

You dont need to be from a warzone to be a refugee. There are international laws and US laws in place that handle that. A judge decides the legitimacy. You cant judge someone refugee status from just looking at them.

This I don't disagree with, and as I believe someone else mentioned, perhaps things would have been better for the refugees had they stroked Trumps ego a bit. But they didn't. Not by a long shot.
In the end though, I believe they should legitimately go through the proper process of seeking asylum and were should be a bit more compassionate to their plight as our governments insistent interference central America for decades is a huge cause for them seeking asylum in the first place.

 

[Danoff]

It looks like things really took a turn south when videos came out of these folks leaving behind trash, food, and water that was given to them in Mexico City. Many were definitely not happy to see perfectly good food go to waste bc they didn’t want it or didn’t like it for whatever reason. The scenes of all the garbage left behind was also a nuisance.

It seems even worse with those who live in Tijuana. One video I saw from a resident said they are more than willing to help, but they do not want the refugees littering and causing conflicts as they push towards the border. Some are already telling them to go back bc some started getting violent. I think one man was hit in the face by a rock and retaliated against the refugee who hit him.

It doesn't help to their image that they're using drugs on broad daylight and some have assaulted a few of the people who live inmediately close to the area, including immigrants that we received last year from Africa and Haiti.

It's big. It's not so much of a "they're doing this", as much as it is that there are enough people that lots of behavior is expected.

 

[McLaren]

In context there are a few thousands refugees and the border entry is only handling 100 asylum applicants or so a day. So I guess people got impatient? If you can confirm they were not going to plan applying after jumping the fence I would agree with you, but without being there it is hard to judge.

There's nothing to judge. Being impatient isn't an excuse to basically say, "Man, screw all ya'll I just traveled days with. I'm gonna make an attempt to jump the fence why ya'll waste time waiting to be processed."

I mean, @Tornado already addressed this:

Maybe it would have been smarter to not try and seek asylum at the exact same time as thousands of others at a historically prickly border crossing during the presidency of someone who got elected in large part on his promises to essentially shut down the exact same border they are trying to cross.

They refused in mexico you mean?

You dont need to be from a warzone to be a refugee. There are international laws and US laws in place that handle that. A judge decides the legitimacy. You cant judge someone refugee status from just looking at them.

I don't think the people who threw rocks and forced their way into Mexico care what a law or judge thinks.

 

[PocketZeven]

There's nothing to judge. Being impatient isn't an excuse to basically say, "Man, screw all ya'll I just traveled days with. I'm gonna make an attempt to jump the fence why ya'll waste time waiting to be processed."

I mean, @Tornado already addressed this:



I don't think the people who threw rocks and forced their way into Mexico care what a law or judge thinks.

I agree fully with that assesment. But dont make it more then what it is. Impatient people trying to jump the line.

People throwing rocks should be punished or deported. But that doesnt mean the whole caravan should be punished.

 

[BobK]

They refused in mexico you mean?

Yes, they refused offers of asylum from Mexico. They refused. You don't get to pick and choose looking for the best asylum offer.

You dont need to be from a warzone to be a refugee. There are international laws and US laws in place that handle that. A judge decides the legitimacy. You cant judge someone refugee status from just looking at them.

I don't recall ever mentioning "refugees". I was discussing asylum seekers who didn't like the first offer of asylum.

 

[Danoff]

Yes, they refused offers of asylum from Mexico. They refused. You don't get to pick and choose looking for the best asylum offer.

Mexico is a place to seek asylum from.

 

[ryzno]

Only if you ignore what it means to be a slave. The best example of slavery in the US is our rich - who are forced to provide services to others.

We kinda are. Unless one is fortunate enough, they have to work every day to make someone else money and hope to receive a few crumbs at the end of the day. Yeah they have a choice to leave that job and go find another job. But it's still the same at the end of the day.
I'm blessed enough to be able to afford a helper sometimes, but at the end of the day it's still same. I'm trying to find someone to work for me, so I can work less, to make someone more money than I'll ever see.
I feel this is way off topic and if you do want to continue this convo. Please quote me in the thread this subject should belong, cause I honestly have NO idea where.

 

[PocketZeven]

Yes, they refused offers of asylum from Mexico. They refused. You don't get to pick and choose looking for the best asylum offer.



I don't recall ever mentioning "refugees". I was discussing asylum seekers who didn't like the first offer of asylum.

Why not? It isnt illegal to choose and pick where you ask for asylum. It happens in europe even more.

And you formulated like they all refused asylum in Mexico. In actuality 3.200 people of the caravan applied for asylum in mexico and perhaps more from seperate caravans. But you are right that the majority is looking for to apply in the country they have more opportunities.

https://www.dw.com/en/thousands-of-caravan-migrants-seek-asylum-in-mexico/a-46185136

 

[Danoff]

I just did a back-calculation from this webiste: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-i-apply-asylum-from-mexico.html

I estimate about 15k US applications for asylum from Mexico per year.

Edit:

Yea Mexico is the #1 country we get asylum applications from: https://www.justice.gov/eoir/file/asylum-statistics/download


Edit2:

Interestingly enough, it appears that China is far and away #1 in terms of number of asylums granted.

 

[PocketZeven]

I just did a back-calculation from this webiste: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-i-apply-asylum-from-mexico.html

I estimate about 15k US applications for asylum from Mexico per year.

Edit:

Yea Mexico is the #1 country we get asylum applications from: https://www.justice.gov/eoir/file/asylum-statistics/download


Edit2:

Interestingly enough, it appears that China is far and away #1 in terms of number of asylums granted.

So Trump should be complaining about the chinese "invasion" instead of the caravan.

 

[McLaren]

So Trump should be complaining about the chinese "invasion" instead of the caravan.

When 5,000+ Chinese immigrants come to the border at once and some start trying to enter the country illegally, sure.

 

[Danoff]

I'm asking the members of the board to take a hard honest look at the situation and tell me the answer to a simple question... what would you do?

You're living in Guatemala with a kid. Gangs violently control and extort the population. You have trouble finding food for your kid, and there's little sense in owning or building much of anything toward a better future because it will be stolen or destroyed. Rule of law is non-existent and you fear for your safety and your child's safety every day.

There is a chance that America will grant you asylum. You don't even know what that is or what it means, but you know enough - that it means you'll get to be in the US where gangs cannot do the things you've seen them do. Where you can work, and you actually get to keep the results and build toward the future. Where your child has a chance at happiness.

Honestly, what the hell would you do? I know what I would do. I would walk across central America and Mexico and beg at the US border for safety. I would not want to stay in Mexico, which suffers many of the same problems. I would risk my life and my child's life for that chance.

I know, not every person's story in that mob is so sympathetic. But how much would you bet me that not one story is so sympathetic? How about two? How about 10? And what exactly is the harm that they represent by coming here? Crime? Hopefully the case workers can find people who are already criminals and weed them out. But suppose they're willing to commit crime. What happens when you a commit a crime in the US and get picked up by law enforcement - you get kicked out. You lose that thing that you risked your life to get. How many of you on this forum have thrown away something you risked your life or your child's life to get?

What other harm do they pose? Cultural differences? What a scary concept that their culture is different. But we're not making them citizens. They can't vote. Taking up jobs? Jobs create wealth. Someone who is productively employed creates wealth out of thin air. That wealth is reinvested into more jobs.

If you're worried about them ending up on the government dole, vote against the dole. The dole is the problem, unskilled workers aren't. If you're worried that they'll end up unemployed because automation will destroy their jobs, that's the perfect reason to welcome unskilled workers with open arms. Cheap labor makes automation unattractive. Reduce minimum wage, don't force companies to buy healthcare, and every unskilled worker will have a job that they can use to better themselves.

The truth is that a peaceful immigrant, even one who is qualified to do nothing but dig ditches, clean toilets, or pick marijuana (I actually don't know if pot gets "picked", probably not, but you get the point), a peaceful immigrant does no harm to you, and in fact, will ultimately benefit the economy as a whole.