Latin American Caravan(s) Headed for Southern U.S. Border

[Danoff]

As much as I agree it's a waste to use military resources on this, I'm not sure there is much they could do to speed up the processing. There's only so many judges and lawyers who are familiar enough with immigration law and I would be willing to bet they aren't in a position to drop everything and rush to the border.

I agree with the sentiment that you can't rush this sort of thing - that military personnel can't be re-purposed to become immigration attorneys and judges. Not that a huge rush was needed here, the asylum backlog was already huge back in the spring when the caravan got going. I'm sure that the military could help though. I would also have liked to see our military used to help maintain safe conditions for people that we should presume have a legitimate claim to asylum.

 

[ryzno]

As much as I agree it's a waste to use military resources on this, I'm not sure there is much they could do to speed up the processing. There's only so many judges and lawyers who are familiar enough with immigration law and I would be willing to bet they aren't in a position to drop everything and rush to the border.

Not everyone is willing to be violent, but the group as a whole, had no problem pushing through after the violent part of the group broke Mexico's border.
Who is to say, if they breached our border the entire group wouldn't push on again.
The whole group isn't violent, but honestly what can we do besides send troops? When 1000's are willing to push through after the bad guys in the group make a hole? One has to assume, the whole group wouldn't push through if they could?
Another point I want to bring up is the delay isn't always our fault. We do have to work with other countries to verify the people we let in.
It's not all our fault, we probably could process the 8,000 in a day if we could get the proper info. I know us(government) being slow is a problem, but I don't know of any country the government is fast.
It's not completely our fault.

 

[Danoff]

Not everyone is willing to be violent, but the group as a whole, had no problem pushing through after the violent part of the group broke Mexico's border.
Who is to say, if they breached our border the entire group wouldn't push on again.
The whole group isn't violent, but honestly what can we do besides send troops? When 1000's are willing to push through after the bad guys in the group make a hole? One has to assume, the whole group wouldn't push through if they could?

Despite Trump's protests, that's kinda what asylum is - people fleeing to your country, without a legal right to be there, and claiming that they did so to escape violence. You're supposed to get yourself here to claim it - that's how it works. You run to the US to safety and then demand not to be sent back because your life is in danger.

I know, Trump said that people who cross illegally should not be granted asylum. He doesn't understand the concept.

Asylum can be claimed at any port of entry - an airport, even one in the middle of the country. You're supposed to get yourself to the US (possibly illegally) and immediately surrender yourself to US authorities.

 

[ryzno]

Asylum can be claimed at any port of entry - an airport, even one in the middle of the country. You're supposed to get yourself to the US (possibly illegally) and immediately surrender yourself to US authorities.

Yeah but said people probably didn't rip down a wall to get into the airport in the middle of America. Get what I'm saying?

 

[Danoff]

Yeah but said people probably didn't rip down a wall to get into the airport in the middle of America. Get what I'm saying?

I get you.

On the otherhand, I don't think the US attempts to enforce the laws of other nations that people might have broken in order to put themselves in a place to surrender to US authorities. So trespassing across Mexico is, if not outright expected, at least not a reason to bar them from asylum here. It's also not a reason to assume that they'll do the same here.

The theory is that all you need to do is get yourself to a US border officer and surrender. That's it. If you're truly fleeing an expectation of violence (which is very debatable), your case for asylum is good. The reality appears to be that when you get here we'll refuse to hear your surrender for 6 weeks and you need to try to survive on the other side of the border with nothing, presumably under threat of violence (because that was the point afterall). That's really not how it's supposed to work.

If you're fleeing violence into the US and surrender yourself to the first border officer you find, that should count, even if you made it pretty far in.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Trump quotes demonizing mexicans, muslims and others.:

- "these aren't people. These are animals."
- “Why are we having all these people from ******** countries come here?”
- "The US has become a dumping ground for everybody else's problems. Thank you. It's true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
- "Protecting our workers also means reforming our system of legal immigration. The current, outdated system depresses wages for our poorest workers, and puts great pressure on taxpayers,"
- “Absolutely. I mean, I don’t notice Swedish people knocking down the World Trade Center. There is a Muslim problem in the world, and you know it and I know it.”
- “Muslims can come in but other people can’t; Christians can’t come into this country but Muslims can. Something has got to be coming down from the top… the Muslims aren’t in danger but the Christians are.”
- President Donald Trump declared in the Oval Office that the incoming Haitian refugees “all have AIDS”
- During a campaign rally in New Hampshire, Trump does not correct a rally attendee who states that President Obama is a Muslim and “not even an American.” The attendee goes on to say, “We have a problem in this country; it’s called Muslims” and asks Trump, “When can we get rid of them?” Trump responds, “We’re going to be looking at that and plenty of other things.”
- “Refugees from Syria are now pouring into our great country. Who knows who they are — some could be ISIS. Is our president insane?”
- C laims he saw “thousands and thousands of people” cheering on 9/11 as the World Trade Centers came down.
- “total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”
- about muslims: “There’s a sickness. They’re sick people. There’s a sickness going on. There’s a group of people that is very sick. And we have to figure out the answer. And the Muslims can help us figure out the answer.”
- “Is it really a Muslim problem or is it a radical Islamist problem?” Trump responds: “Maybe its a Muslim problem, maybe its not.”
- “I think Islam hates us. There’s something there that — there’s a tremendous hatred there. There’s a tremendous hatred. We have to get to the bottom of it. There’s an unbelievable hatred of us.”



You might be correct, but nationalism and potriatism can not be used interchangably in all instances.

There is zero context for these quotes. I remember most of them but I'll pick two because I can't be arsed to do your job for you.

"these aren't people. These are animals."

Here he is specifically referring to one of the most violent gangs in the world, MS-13.

President Trump on Wednesday doubled down on his use of the term "animals" to describe some immigrants living illegally in the U.S.Speaking at an event in New York about the MS-13 gang, Trump rebuked critics who said the term was inappropriate and reiterated that he used it to refer to gang members only.

"I called them animals the other day and I was met with rebuke," Trump said. "They said, 'These are people.' These are not people, these are animals and we have to be very, very tough."

You might think they are fine people but, IMO, calling MS-13 animals is entirely appropriate, if not doing them a favour.

"Protecting our workers also means reforming our system of legal immigration. The current, outdated system depresses wages for our poorest workers, and puts great pressure on taxpayers,"

"I am not going to let America and its great companies and workers, be taken advantage of anymore. "I am going to bring back millions of jobs," Trump vowed. "Protecting our workers also means reforming our system of legal immigration. The current, outdated system depresses wages for our poorest workers and puts great pressure on taxpayers." Trump also said, "I believe that real and positive immigration reform is possible, as long as we focus on the following goals: to improve jobs and wages for Americans, to strengthen our nation's security and to restore respect for our laws."
"If we are guided by the well-being of American citizens then I believe Republicans and Democrats can work together to achieve an outcome that has eluded our country for decades," the president said.

Source
I don't see a problem here when the remarks are in context. It's practically copy/paste from remarks made by Clinton, Obama and probably others.

If you're going to just copy and paste someone else's work, you should probably put the link up as well.
https://medium.com/nilc/86-times-donald-trump-displayed-or-promoted-islamophobia-49e67584ac10

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

JohnnyP has made things quite personal in the recent past, but even then I think my response was not wrong. A lot of statements I make or support are often countered by what about Clinton or what about Obama, assuming I am a democrat (which I am not). Like I stated before I am anti-Trump and not democrat or republican. I also do not represent MSM.

An argument should not be countered with whataboutisms, but with relevant arguments. If he agrees with Trumps vision on his immigration policies, just say so and explain why. He responded directly to my post, suggesting an opposite position to his.

My statement:
- Trump demonizes immigrants (both legal and illegal)
- Pre-Trump no other modern POTUS has professed nationalism. Most Potus have always recognised that the strength of the USA is diversity and that it was built upon the shoulders of immigrants. Trump has never acknowledged that/

JohnnyP counter:
- Obama deported more people then Trump
- Obama used teargas

If he made the same statement without quoting my post, I would have not reacted the same way.

That was my point to @TexRex which he responded to in a very calm manner, who cares who is posting at your or to you whatever, the fact of the matter is yes they and most people here have a high bias one way or the other. The fact is you can respond without it seeming like a personal dig or even a slight to your own bias. E.g. Objective thought which you've claimed elsewhere you use but that is far from reality, but I digress on that point.

As for the rest of what you've said, you put a view point that pre-Trump America was a place you could look at and admire, all Penso did was squash that image you gave (which indeed was misplaced) and placed facts to why it was wrong to admire it. Now I agree there is bias on his end of course, but to state that simply because the current POTUS is a loud mouth on many platforms and isn't afraid to be unfiltered doesn't mean that the landscape had suddenly changed. In fact I'd say the landscape made it easier for Trump to go further forth in his immigration policy simply because his predecessors set up that road.

I understand you view, but from my point of view, you have to understand I am not against deportation of illegals or the use of teargas in escalating situation or riot control. But the way JohnnyP reacted was to insinuate I am against deportations and against the use of teargas. That was not even what my post was about.

I don't mind nor really care if you're against it or not that wasn't my point or reason to respond. And in reality I didn't get that same read from the post like you did. What I saw it as was, you realize there was immigration before Trump but you feel it's far worse under Trump to the point you can't really admire the U.S. as you once did. I can't say I recall I time anyone should admire the U.S. when it comes to immigration policy... Maybe the Carter era?

 

[PocketZeven]

There is zero context for these quotes. I remember most of them but I'll pick two because I can't be arsed to do your job for you.

Here he is specifically referring to one of the most violent gangs in the world, MS-13.
You might think they are fine people but, IMO, calling MS-13 animals is entirely appropriate, if not doing them a favour.




Source
I don't see a problem here when the remarks are in context. It's practically copy/paste from remarks made by Clinton, Obama and probably others.

If you're going to just copy and paste someone else's work, you should probably put the link up as well.
https://medium.com/nilc/86-times-donald-trump-displayed-or-promoted-islamophobia-49e67584ac10

I agree with you, that some of these quotes need to be put in context. However when you add it all up immigrants from certain areas (central/south america, muslim countries) have been demonized throughout his campaign and presidency. This is what a lot of Trump supporters seem to hear and perhaps unintentially empowered islamophobes, racists, white-nationalists etc.

That was my point to @TexRex which he responded to in a very calm manner, who cares who is posting at your or to you whatever, the fact of the matter is yes they and most people here have a high bias one way or the other. The fact is you can respond without it seeming like a personal dig or even a slight to your own bias. E.g. Objective thought which you've claimed elsewhere you use but that is far from reality, but I digress on that point.

As for the rest of what you've said, you put a view point that pre-Trump America was a place you could look at and admire, all Penso did was squash that image you gave (which indeed was misplaced) and placed facts to why it was wrong to admire it. Now I agree there is bias on his end of course, but to state that simply because the current POTUS is a loud mouth on many platforms and isn't afraid to be unfiltered doesn't mean that the landscape had suddenly changed. In fact I'd say the landscape made it easier for Trump to go further forth in his immigration policy simply because his predecessors set up that road.



I don't mind nor really care if you're against it or not that wasn't my point or reason to respond. And in reality I didn't get that same read from the post like you did. What I saw it as was, you realize there was immigration before Trump but you feel it's far worse under Trump to the point you can't really admire the U.S. as you once did. I can't say I recall I time anyone should admire the U.S. when it comes to immigration policy... Maybe the Carter era?

I didnt react neccesarily as a personal dig. I reacted because he was arguing with arguments that where not in context of my original post.

To be fair I still admire the USA. Every country has flaws. I just think its current leader is ruining everything what it stood for. He clearly does not understand what made America great in my opinion.

Illegal immigration and refugees are a very current problem in europe as well. However there is a difference between being strong and tough on illegal immigration and demonizing immigrants. Penso actually mad a good point by pointing out that the Obama administration deported far more people, without demonizing them the way Trump and co are doing. I fully agree that criminals, drugdealers should be kept out of any country, but that doesnt mean that innocent south/central americans and muslim immigrants should all be labeled as such or suffer the consequences.


Can we at least agree it isnt an Invasion as was proclaimed by the Trump and Co.

 

[ryzno]

Can we at least agree it isnt an Invasion as was proclaimed by the Trump and Co.

I would like to know your language's definition of invasion before I answer.
In American English, we have a saying of "don't invade my space".
I'll explain it if needed.
But no they haven't invaded.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I would like to know your language's definition of invasion before I answer.
In American English, we have a saying of "don't invade my space".
I'll explain it if needed.
But no they haven't invaded.

Invasion in both British and American English usually implies a component of taking-over. It would take far far higher numbers of asylum seekers for it to come anywhere near Invasion status, imo.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I didnt react neccesarily as a personal dig. I reacted because he was arguing with arguments that where not in context of my original post.

To be fair I still admire the USA. Every country has flaws. I just think its current leader is ruining everything what it stood for. He clearly does not understand what made America great in my opinion.

Illegal immigration and refugees are a very current problem in europe as well. However there is a difference between being strong and tough on illegal immigration and demonizing immigrants. Penso actually mad a good point by pointing out that the Obama administration deported far more people, without demonizing them the way Trump and co are doing. I fully agree that criminals, drugdealers should be kept out of any country, but that doesnt mean that innocent south/central americans and muslim immigrants should all be labeled as such or suffer the consequences.


Can we at least agree it isnt an Invasion as was proclaimed by the Trump and Co.

Again he was arguing in context of your post, you said Pre-Trump, which gave him an opening to argue what he did. Also I don't agree that Trump is ruining everything the nation stood for, in reality he is giving people (not all of course) what they wanted. I don't think anyone knows what made America great in reality and I sure wouldn't say it was any leaders in the past several decades.

As for the rest of what you're saying I again have spoken on this. My only point was to say that no Penso wasn't trolling or out of context and that if you go even further back the trend of deportation and the stigma of illegal immigrants is quite massive and that is why the road has easily been paved for Trump with many of the previous administrations.

 

[PocketZeven]

Again he was arguing in context of your post, you said Pre-Trump, which gave him an opening to argue what he did. Also I don't agree that Trump is ruining everything the nation stood for, in reality he is giving people (not all of course) what they wanted. I don't think anyone knows what made America great in reality and I sure wouldn't say it was any leaders in the past several decades.

As for the rest of what you're saying I again have spoken on this. My only point was to say that no Penso wasn't trolling or out of context and that if you go even further back the trend of deportation and the stigma of illegal immigrants is quite massive and that is why the road has easily been paved for Trump with many of the previous administrations.

Trump ruining the USA is just my opinion and everyone can disagree with me if they like.

What made america great is millions of immigrants traveling to a distant "new" world from various different countries, regardless of background, to eventually make it what it is today in record time. In my opinion it is still what makes america great.

 

[PocketZeven]

Despite Trump's protests, that's kinda what asylum is - people fleeing to your country, without a legal right to be there, and claiming that they did so to escape violence. You're supposed to get yourself here to claim it - that's how it works. You run to the US to safety and then demand not to be sent back because your life is in danger.

I know, Trump said that people who cross illegally should not be granted asylum. He doesn't understand the concept.

Asylum can be claimed at any port of entry - an airport, even one in the middle of the country. You're supposed to get yourself to the US (possibly illegally) and immediately surrender yourself to US authorities.

Trump was raised in a privileged upbringing. I dont think he fully understands the concept of being a refugee or illegal immigrant. The reason any person would leave their homeland can be for political, social, economical or violence reasons.

I truly believe he presumes that immigrants from certain countries are poor people who are either solely out to get benefits like social security in the USA or criminals who think that america is soft on crime.

edit: added comment to @Danoff

 

[TenEightyOne]

Trump was raised in a privileged upbringing. I dont think he fully understands the concept of being a refugee or illegal immigrant.

The two things don't naturally conflate. There are plenty of working class (blue collar?) people who don't understand the concept and plenty of hugely wealthy people who do.

 

[PocketZeven]

The two things don't naturally conflate. There are plenty of working class (blue collar?) people who don't understand the concept and plenty of hugely wealthy people who do.

True, but I was referring to specifically Trump and not wealthy privileged people as a whole. I perhaps incorrectly suggested it was just his privilege that caused the disconnect. Like the fact that not all wealthy people think climate change is a hoax. But I just cant imagine Trump having empathy with illegal immigrants or refugees.

 

[ryzno]

But I just cant imagine Trump having empathy with illegal immigrants or refugees.

His wife was an immigrant... He must know something.
I'm not Mexican but I've heard the stories, seen the cost, seen how difficult it is to get here. One of my girl's brothers is illegal. It takes him a week to get here. He has to pay $2-3000 to get smuggled across the border.
He goes to visit family in Mexico twice a year. It's a lot easier for him to leave here than come back from there.
I'm not going to go into why he's illegal and the entire family(here) including their grandmother are legal citizens...

 

[PocketZeven]

His wife was an immigrant... He must know something.
I'm not Mexican but I've heard the stories, seen the cost, seen how difficult it is to get here. One of my girl's brothers is illegal. It takes him a week to get here. He has to pay $2-3000 to get smuggled across the border.
He goes to visit family in Mexico twice a year. It's a lot easier for him to leave here than come back from there.
I'm not going to go into why he's illegal and the entire family including their grandmother are legal citizens...

Her background isnt comparable. Slovenia is good country to live in.
I was referring to illegal immigrants and refugees from certain countries who left for economical, social, political or violence reasons.

 

[ryzno]

Her background isnt comparable. Slovenia is good country to live in.
I was referring to illegal immigrants and refugees from certain countries who left for economical, social, political or violence reasons.

I don't know the lifestyle in Slovenia compared to here.
She wanted to come here for some reason...

 

[TexRex]

I don't know the lifestyle in Slovenia compared to here.
She wanted to come here for some reason...

Presumably for work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melania_Trump

After attending the University of Ljubljana for one year, she modeled for fashion houses in Paris and Milan, where in 1995 she met Metropolitan Models co-owner Paolo Zampolli, a friend of her future husband Donald Trump, who was on a scouting trip in Europe. Zampolli urged her to travel to the United States, where he said he would like to represent her.

In 1996, Knauss moved to Manhattan. Zampolli arranged for her to share an apartment with photographer Matthew Atanian in Zeckendorf Towers in Union Square. She did 10 paid modeling jobs in the U.S. in the seven weeks before she received legal permission to work in the country.

What that has to do with having empathy for illegal immigrants and/or refugees, I don't know. Frankly, a relationship to whatever degree with an immigrant of whatever legal status isn't in and of itself indicative of empathy for that particular demographic, just as Melania having married Trump isn't indicative of empathy for adult males with small hands.

 

[ryzno]

What that has to do with having empathy for illegal immigrants and/or refugees, I don't know.

From your own quote...

She did 10 paid modeling jobs in the U.S. in the seven weeks before she received legal permission to work in the country.

Ahhh!!! So she did come here looking for a better life and funny enough she worked a month and a half HERE ILLEGALLY and her friend had a connection to Trump, so now we KNOW he had an idea of what she was going through.
I can't make this crap up lolol!!
Thanks for the laugh man!!

 

[PocketZeven]

From your own quote...
Ahhh!!! So she did come here looking for a better life and funny enough she worked a month and a half HERE ILLEGALLY and her friend had a connection to Trump, so now we KNOW he had an idea of what she was going through.
I can't make this crap up lolol!!
Thanks for the laugh man!!

You obviously cant compare a high paid fashion model, with someone fleeing from violent gangs, being gay or not able to afford to feed your children. But yes technically they are both immigrants.

 

[TexRex]

From your own quote...
Ahhh!!! So she did come here looking for a better life and funny enough she worked a month and a half HERE ILLEGALLY and her friend had a connection to Trump, so now we KNOW he had an idea of what she was going through.
I can't make this crap up lolol!!
Thanks for the laugh man!!

There's no indication in the cited text that she left for something better than what she had, rather that there seemed to be an opportunity to work, an absence of which where she was prior to leaving is not indicated. You're just drawing conclusions to suit your chosen narrative, just as you are in inferring and subsequently implying that he knew of her background when deciding to engage in a relationship with her or has been made aware at any point since.

 

[PocketZeven]

There's no indication in the cited text that she left for something better than what she had, rather that there seemed to be an opportunity to work, an absence of which where she was prior to leaving is not indicated. You're just drawing conclusions to suit your chosen narrative, just as you are in inferring and subsequently implying that he knew of her background when deciding to engage in a relationship with her or has been made aware at any point since.

I also want to add that Trump's narrative and rhetoric on immigrants is region specific. He welcomes europeans, russians, slovenians, but no so much with central/south americans, africans, asians, middle easterns etc.

 

[ryzno]

There's no indication in the cited text that she left for something better than what she had, rather that there seemed to be an opportunity to work, an absence of which where she was prior to leaving is not indicated.

The scout was trying to get her out of there for something. Be it more money or a lack of jobs.
Again, she came here for a reason.

 

[TexRex]

The scout was trying to get her out of there for something. Be it more money or a lack of jobs.
Again, she came here for a reason.

For all you or I know, there could have been an evil monkey stalking her in Europe--fortunately most monkeys can't fly--but the motivation for the move in no way alludes to empathy for immigrants and/or refugees on Trump's part.

Do you suppose poor people buy cheap clothes made in sweatshops out of empathy for the people working in them?

 

[ryzno]

Do you suppose poor people buy cheap clothes made in sweatshops out of empathy for the people working in them?

No. They buy them cause they need them. I get what you and PZ are saying.

 

[PocketZeven]

No. They buy them cause they need them. I get what you and PZ are saying.

Perhaps Trump does actually think illegal immigrants are aspiring models fleeing from evil Monkeys? It wouldnt surprise me that much.

 

[TexRex]

No. They buy them cause they need them. I get what you and PZ are saying.

I appreciate your acknowledgement of that.

Of course, the presence of myriad reasons to do something isn't indicative of an absence of one particular reason.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Trump ruining the USA is just my opinion and everyone can disagree with me if they like.

What made america great is millions of immigrants traveling to a distant "new" world from various different countries, regardless of background, to eventually make it what it is today in record time. In my opinion it is still what makes america great.

Yeah that is what made America great in to a degree, there are a variety of other reasons like trying to take on very difficult engineering and scientific endeavors. As for what currently makes america great, it is those facets that go beyond just people immigrating here.

 

[PocketZeven]

Yeah that is what made America great in to a degree, there are a variety of other reasons like trying to take on very difficult engineering and scientific endeavors. As for what currently makes america great, it is those facets that go beyond just people immigrating here.

It was never mader really clear, but what era is Trump referring to about with MAGA. And did that era have strict policies against legal/illegal immigration?