Major Earthquake & Tsunami in Japan

[Tenacious D]

Not to give all kinds of credence to Dotini or anything, but I wouldn't toss out what he posts so casually. We know very little of the dynamics of star and planetary systems. In fact, we still don't know all that much about electro-magnetism. Some cable makers deal with more than 100 EM effects, and it seems that more properties are discovered about this "basic" force every day. Scientists are still working out what the effects are of the solar "wind" screaming into planets at different speeds, energy states and radiation levels. Satellite makers and operators are particularly keen to know any new discoveries in this area.

And the most common force in the universe and most directly felt by us, gravity, we know almost nothing about. With something as massive and energetic as a nearby sun, eruptions by solar storms could produce gravity waves, much like smacking a telephone cable with a hammer, which ripple outward causing effects we can only guess at right now.

The more we know, the more we know that we don't know.

 

[G.T.Ace]

This is a major issue:

#
2131: Japan's Prime Minister Naoto Kan has just announced that residents living within 10km (6.2 miles) of the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear station must evacuate their homes, according to the Kyodo news agency. Engineers are trying to fix the cooling system of one of the plant's reactors, which was damaged by the earthquake. The authorities had earlier told some 3,000 residents living within 3km (1.9 miles) to leave.

EDIT:

#
2132: The Tokyo Electric Power Company has said radiation may already have been released at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

 

[Dotini]

#
2132: The Tokyo Electric Power Company has said radiation may already have been released at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant.

Same source as post above.

 

[millross]

Videos of the water sweeping in is pretty crazy and shocking.

Really - I find the whole Sun/Moon thing perplexing. Close orbits/gravity CAN have an effect on tidal flexing, sure - look at IO/Jupiter if you wanna know what I mean.

The mechanics of the earth/moon relationship however is that the moon has got a bit closer to us, but has a pretty weak gravitational force to start with. If it had become Jupiter overnight then I would suspect it - but you're talking small fry. Remember also that "Gravity sucks" - you can't "send out gravity" in some kind of pulse, it's attracted to the mass of the object that causes it, the escape velocity required to get a shuttle out of Earths orbit for example, is very difficult to achieve as the planet tries to pull the thing back toward it....

As for the CME - well that might knacker electrical equipment perhaps, but cause an earthquake? Nah.

The Earth is a massive ball of rock with 60 mile thick plates that move about and crush into each other with unimaginable force. Japan (And NZ) are small islands literally sat on top of major plate lines. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work it all out

Don't believe everything you read out there - looks like people like trying to make names for themselves, or gain popularity from crazy stories.... or perhaps that 2012 movie DID have something in it after alll.......

Getting back on topic....heart goes out to Japan. A massive rebuild of lives and livelihood.

 

[Griffith500]

No, you don't... and I'm not sure how you read that into my post! What I'm saying is, the idea that this earthquake was caused by an X-class solar flare and associated coronal mass ejection is about as convincing as the 'Supermoon' idea mooted earlier in this thread... both hypotheses share a distinct lack of credibility i.e. none whatsoever.

You really oughtn't discount that it could have at least had a contributory effect.

There are lots of things that affect plate tectonics, the earth's magnetic field is but one of them, as is its "gravity field". Both things are being constantly perturbed by natural effects within the volume of the earth, as well as by external phenomena - i.e. the Sun and Moon, and anything they decide to sling our way.

The further back you look through our records, the less detailed and "accurate" they are, from a scientific standpoint, so it's always important to keep an open mind when such an "unprecedented" (in terms of the afore-mentioned records) event occurs. We have so much more information and analytical ability nowadays that it is probably very easy to think that we know plenty about it, but the truth is that we're operating on miniscule time-scales here, and we technically know next-to-nothing.

There have been magnitude ~5.0+ earthquakes at this same location East of Honshu as well as at Kamchatka (i.e. where one of the volcanos erupted) since the fifth of this month, escalating in number and severity starting on the ninth. That tension was clearly already there, but you nor anyone else has any idea whether the massive perturbation of the Earth's magnetic field (it, too, was ringing like a bell) caused by the X-flare could have upset an already tense area of tectonic activity, and it is at least theoretically possible.

It is perhaps unsurprising, given the magnitude of the "first", that a second earthquake (and several aftershocks) has occurred on the fault line (Eurasian / North American plates) running through the middle of Honshu, converging at Tokyo with the subduction line (Pacific / North American plates) that caused the 8.9. There's a pseudo-equilibrium to be reached yet.

I hope that this all ends with the minimal possible damage to people's lives.

 

[G.T.Ace]

We have a leak:

#
2139: Radiation levels at the damaged Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant are continuing to rise. The Jiji Press news agency says the levels are eight times above normal. Its report also cites a ministry official as saying there is a "possibility of a radioactive leak".

Source the same as above.

 

[Griffith500]

We have a leak:


Source the same as above.

I get the impression the thing is running pressures close to tolerance. Either that or it means the pressure isn't rising as much as they expect at this point, so only indirectly indicating a leak - or something similar.

Hopefully they won't need to open the tap, but there is the possibility that this leak (if it both exists and is uncontrolled) is due to permanent damage somewhere, meaning the leak will continue even if the pressure is brought down within spec.

Let's hope that's not the case.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

Does it really matter how it happened? Arguing about such things is utter nonsense. An entire train full of people is missing and you guys are having a spitting contest.

 

[Robin]

Look what I just saw on the BBC news ticker...

They are saying it is most likely there will now be a radiation leak, not a controlled release but a LEAK!

Robin.

 

[G.T.Ace]

#
2149: The Kyodo news agency is now citing a safety panel as saying that the radiation level inside one of the reactors at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant is 1,000 times higher than normal.

Sounds rather bad...

 

[CodeRedR51]

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream3&hpt=T1

Live feed up from Japan, but it's in Japanese.

Edit: Translator is on now.

 

[Dotini]

Sounds rather bad...

According to the sober British talking head on CNN, 1000X normal does not imply health risks. They are expanding the evac zone for psychological comfort to the worriers, he said. He allowed that yet another 1000X would be something to be concerned about.

 

[G.T.Ace]

According to the sober British talking head on CNN, 1000X normal does not imply health risks. They are expanding the evac zone for psychological comfort to the worriers, he said. He allowed that yet another 1000X would be something to be concerned about.

Sorry, but if the amount of radiation rises up to 1000x more than normal in just a couple of minutes, or well maybe a few hours, there must be something seriously wrong. It might be just a really tiny leak, but already that is too much.

People still don't understand how dangerous this is.

 

[CodeRedR51]

People trapped on top of buildings in flooded inland areas.

 

[G.T.Ace]

There's still a chance of a meltdown from the reactor.
Really feeling sick, please no...

 

[Robin]

According to the sober British talking head on CNN, 1000X normal does not imply health risks. They are expanding the evac zone for psychological comfort to the worriers, he said. He allowed that yet another 1000X would be something to be concerned about.

If the radiation is 1000 times higher than it should be in the reactor there is a point where the buildings shielding will not be enough to contain it and it will start coming through the walls. I doubt the casing is designed to handle 100X the norm let alone 1000X the norm and anyone currently at the plant trying to sort the mess out could be in real danger. They are the people you currently need to worry about, not the surrounding evacuated population.

On a side note, its been clarified that the US DID NOT deliver coolant to the plant, the Japanese originally did want some but later said it was OK.

Robin.

 

[Griffith500]

Does it really matter how it happened? Arguing about such things is utter nonsense. An entire train full of people is missing and you guys are having a spitting contest.

Not at all. And of course it matters how it happened. Why (and indeed, how) else would Japan have invested so much in the hope of better dealing with these events?

There's considerably more people missing than "just" one train, too, by the way.

Sounds rather bad...

It could mean the leaking steam also has considerably more radioactivity than normal, although it may not be anywhere near in line with the 1000-fold increase in the reactor itself.
A coolant leak could still be fairly bad in this case, but nothing compared to actually having any of the solids contained in the reactor find their way out (e.g. explosion, fire, meltdown etc.) A leak of this nature is much "better" than the alternatives. At this point, the pressure is probably a good thing, keeping the coolant in the liquid phase for longer...

EDIT: After Chernobyl, contingency planning in nuclear reactors is almost ridiculous. I would be surprised if the casing wasn't designed to withstand such levels of radiation. They knew the mass of fuel that would be in there, so they knew just how much energy the stuff could spit out if it gets out of control. The same goes for the pressure, that will be operating at many times "design" but possibly bordering the engineering limit.

 

[G.T.Ace]

But the pressure is still rising, I know what you mean, that's why they tried to release some vapor on purpose but this doesn't look like a good sign. As I mentioned above, a meltdown is still possible.

 

[Morrac32]

I know this sounds like a stupid question but if there was a meltdown at that plant how big would the radius be that is affected by the radiation?

 

[Touring Mars]

You really oughtn't discount that it could have at least had a contributory effect.

You are right, but at the same time, it is imperative not to make erroneous connections.

Not at all. And of course it matters how it happened. Why (and indeed, how) else would Japan have invested so much in the hope of better dealing with these events?

Well said. And this is why it is forgivable that spurious claims are challenged. Both Japan and New Zealand, while both delivered cruel blows by the awesome force of nature in recent days, have both benefited to some extent from their preparedness, based on their past experiences. However, as DaveTheStalker is suggesting, perhaps now is not the moment for such deliberations.

 

[Dotini]

And of course it matters how it happened. Why (and indeed, how) else would Japan have invested so much in the hope of better dealing with these events?

EDIT: After Chernobyl, contingency planning in nuclear reactors is almost ridiculous. I would be surprised if the casing wasn't designed to withstand such levels of radiation. They knew the mass of fuel that would be in there, so they knew just how much energy the stuff could spit out if it gets out of control. The same goes for the pressure, that will be operating at many times "design" but possibly bordering the engineering limit.

I'm not sure but I think this reactor is 40 years old....

 

[G.T.Ace]

I know this sounds like a stupid question but if there was a meltdown at that plant how big would the radius be that is affected by the radiation?

You cannot really predict something like that, the radiation could be carried by winds and clouds across the whole globe and rain down in crowded places and over fields etc. and with that contaminate food.

EDIT: And yes, the reactor is from 1976.

 

[CDailey]

If the radiation is 1000 times higher than it should be in the reactor there is a point where the buildings shielding will not be enough to contain it and it will start coming through the walls. I doubt the casing is designed to handle 100X the norm let alone 1000X the norm and anyone currently at the plant trying to sort the mess out could be in real danger. They are the people you currently need to worry about, not the surrounding evacuated population.

On a side note, its been clarified that the US DID NOT deliver coolant to the plant, they offered but the Japanese declined. They did send some equipment though.

Robin.

You'd be surprised. Nuclear plants are incredibly safe and incredibly over engineered. You're also forgetting that there are several types of radiation that are affected differently by different materials. You are exposed to radiation every day by all sort of things (even bananas). Of course if you work at a nuclear plant (like I do) or live in close proximity to one, you get exposed to more radiation than someone who doesn't, but that extra radiation you get is less than what you would normally get in a year. These places are filled and lined with feet of lead and concrete and Steele. They were designed with the worst possible case scenario in mind.

 

[lbsf1]

I'm not sure but I think this reactor is 40 years old....

I can second that, they said so on bbc news.

 

[G.T.Ace]

You'd be surprised. Nuclear plants are incredibly safe and incredibly over engineered. You're also forgetting that there are several types of radiation that are affected differently by different materials. You are exposed to radiation every day by all sort of things (even bananas). Of course if you work at a nuclear plant (like I do) or live in close proximity to one, you get exposed to more radiation than someone who doesn't, but that extra radiation you get is less than what you would normally get in a year. These places are filled and lined with feet of lead and concrete and Steele. They were designed with the worst possible case scenario in mind.

You are right, but the last sentence doesn't make sense.
It's not like this would be the first meltdown or big accident with radioactivity and I am not only talking about Chernobyl. This could end in a catastrophe way bigger than the quake/tsunami itself.

I don't want to be a witness of a INES 7 accident, this is horrible.

 

[HACKr]

I'm not sure but I think this reactor is 40 years old....

Just putting this out there, but Chernobyl was an RBMK reactor, which is an unacceptably unstable design (especially at LOW power levels) whereas this BWR reactor is a much more stable and well thought out design.

 

[CDailey]

You are right, but the last sentence doesn't make sense.
It's not like this would be the first meltdown or big accident with radioactivity and I am not only talking about Chernobyl. This could end in a catastrophe way bigger than the quake/tsunami itself.

My point was that that even though the radiation levels may be 1000x above normal, it could very well be within the tolerances of the casing.

 

[r2nyGT5]

You cannot really predict something like that, the radiation could be carried by winds and clouds across the whole globe and rain down in crowded places and over fields etc. and with that contaminate food.

EDIT: And yes, the reactor is from 1976.

Isn't there two stages? One is the explosion, then after is the Nuclear Fallout. Your talking about the fallout.
The explosion itself I think, can damage/burn anything that is exposed to the explosion's light. then theres the actual blast, which I know nothing about.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Robin]

You'd be surprised. Nuclear plants are incredibly safe and incredibly over engineered. You're also forgetting that there are several types of radiation that are affected differently by different materials. You are exposed to radiation every day by all sort of things (even bananas). Of course if you work at a nuclear plant (like I do) or live in close proximity to one, you get exposed to more radiation than someone who doesn't, but that extra radiation you get is less than what you would normally get in a year. These places are filled and lined with feet of lead and concrete and Steele. They were designed with the worst possible case scenario in mind.

Its reassuring to hear from someone in the know such as yourself 👍

I'm still kinda worried though mainly because of its age, Fukushima was built in 1966 and was probably designed years before that making it even older than Chernobyl and we all know how safe that was! Nuclear power plants of that era didn't really have all that great containment systems or shielding compared to modern plants. It depends how much upgrade work has been done in the last 40 years.

My point was that that even though the radiation levels may be 1000x above normal, it could very well be within the tolerances of the casing.

Just out of interest what is a normal casing tolerance level in an average nuclear plant?

Robin.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

What sort of improvements (to the plant) have been developed over the last 20-30 years to protect against radiation contamination? Would such improvements be retrofitted?