Major Earthquake & Tsunami in Japan

[McLaren]

Its reassuring to hear from someone in the know such as yourself 👍

I'm still kinda worried though mainly because of its age, Fukushima was built in 1966 and was probably designed years before that making it even older than Chernobyl and we all know how safe that was! Nuclear power plants of that era didn't really have all that great containment systems or shielding compared to modern plants. It depends how much upgrade work has been done in the last 40 years.

Robin.

As old as it is, I'm sure that over time, the plant has been replacing its old technology with new ways to keep the plant more efficient. Really considering the fact that this is also in Japan of all countries.

 

[G.T.Ace]

My point was that that even though the radiation levels may be 1000x above normal, it could very well be within the tolerances of the casing.

I understood it like "1000x more than it would be normal around the plant", which would be really high.

Isn't there two stages? One is the explosion, then after is the Nuclear Fallout. Your talking about the fallout.
The explosion itself I think, can damage/burn anything that is exposed to the explosion's light. then theres the actual blast, which I know nothing about.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

A meltdown doesn't have to mean a big explosion. We are not talking about a nuclear bomb here, okay, the explosion in Chernobyl wasn't small, but nothing like a Nuke. The heat could destroy the outer shell of the reactor without a big bang.

Btw. the smaller the explosion (until a certain level of course) the worse, because a big explosion means the radiation will be blown out of the atmosphere and only fall down in a relative small area (although a explosion like that can only be achieved with a nuclear bomb).

 

[Wdave]

I know this sounds like a stupid question but if there was a meltdown at that plant how big would the radius be that is affected by the radiation?

This is a complete guestemate, but it could be close to 150 miles squared around the nuclear power plant. If a Chernobyl like accident would occur, But its unlikely.
What I don't understand is why don't they have a system in place to automatically Pull out the Uranium rods in the event of any sort of earthquake. Yes it could be annoying after lets say its only a minor one, but that could easily be overwritten.

 

[HACKr]

What sort of improvements (to the plant) have been developed over the last 20-30 years to protect against radiation contamination? Would such improvements be retrofitted?

The enclosures themselves look at least somewhat modernised, but I am not really sure about how much the plant has been updated. What I can say, again, is that the reactor design of Chernobyl is much different, and much more unstable than this one. It's less about the age and more about the design itself.

 

[G.T.Ace]

#
2217: The Associated Press is also now citing Japanese nuclear safety agency officials as saying that radiation levels inside one of the reators at the Fukushima-Daini nuclear power plant have surged to 1,000 times their normal levels after the cooling system failed. Pressure inside the reactor has risen to 1.5 times the level considered normal.

Okay, this sounds a bit better.

EDIT: And HACKr is right.

 

[Wdave]

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[CDailey]

Its reassuring to hear from someone in the know such as yourself 👍

I'm still kinda worried though mainly because of its age, Fukushima was built in 1966 and was probably designed years before that making it even older than Chernobyl and we all know how safe that was! Nuclear power plants of that era didn't really have all that great containment systems or shielding compared to modern plants. It depends how much upgrade work has been done in the last 40 years.

Robin.

The plant I work at was built in 1966 as well. My plant has been through several million and billion dollar restorations/updates. They may be physically old but their technology is only a few years old. Chernobyl was also a different type of reactor as has already been mentioned and was an unsafe design from the get go. Nuclear plants get evaluated by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (in the US at least) every few years and if they are not up to snuff, their license to operate gets pulled until they address the issues. Nuclear plants are incredibly safe. Of course, there's always the chance the defecation could hit the oscillation and if it does, hang on to your butts.

 

[G.T.Ace]

No you cannot just take out the rods, the heat should be way too high to approach it.
They need to cool it down first. At least I would guess that.

EDIT:

#
2239: Japanese nuclear safety officials have said the problems at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear power plant represent "no immediate health hazard" to people living nearby. Some 45,000 people living within a 10km (6-mile) radius of the plant were told to evacuate as radiation levels rose to 1,000 times above normal in one reactor.

I just wish independent officials could confirm this.

 

[Wdave]

I still don't understand why weren't the control rods dropped.
And if they were, how is the Temperature and Pressure Still rising.

Just heard on BBC that the Navy gave coolant to one of the nuclear power plants. They didn't specify which.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Even if you would "drop" them, a nuclear power plant doesn't stop working that fast, especially not with power and cooling issues. I do not know the exact mechanism, but I know that this stuff is pretty complicated and time consuming.

EDIT:

#
2252: The Tokyo Electric Power Company has said the cooling systems of three reactors at second nuclear power plant, Fukushima-Daini, are malfunctioning, according to the Kyodo news agency. The plant is 11km (7 miles) to the south of Fukushima-Daiichi, where the cooling system one of its reactors is not working and pressure is rising.

A second plant with problems.

 

[Griffith500]

The plant I work at was built in 1966 as well. My plant has been through several million and billion dollar restorations/updates. They may be physically old but their technology is only a few years old. Chernobyl was also a different type of reactor as has already been mentioned and was an unsafe design from the get go. Nuclear plants get evaluated by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (in the US at least) every few years and if they are not up to snuff, their license to operate gets pulled until they address the issues. Nuclear plants are incredibly safe. Of course, there's always the chance the defecation could hit the oscillation and if it does, hang on to your butts.

As far as I can discover, the Fukushima plants are all GE-licensed designs (e.g. the Daiichi No.1 discussed here is a BWR/4) and have indeed been upgraded many times over their lifetime (which is also close to an end: No.1 is due to be decommissioned on the 26th of this month, after 32 years of operation.)



Apparently the coolant water level dropped and they had to pump water into it (obviously, it should be a closed system). That may mean that, technically, it's already leaked - but this could / should be contained somewhere. Steam leakage is different, and hopefully it isn't the pressure vessel that's leaking or, better, there's no steam leak at all.

2239: Japanese nuclear safety officials have said the problems at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear power plant represent "no immediate health hazard" to people living nearby. Some 45,000 people living within a 10km (6-mile) radius of the plant were told to evacuate as radiation levels rose to 1,000 times above normal in one reactor.

Source.

EDIT: beaten by G.T.Ace.

The reason the heat is such a problem is complicated, but basically the fuel assemblies keep producing heat even after fission has actually stopped. Bad news that the newer plants are also malfunctioning.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Repeating from last page so no one will miss it:

#
2252: The Tokyo Electric Power Company has said the cooling systems of three reactors at second nuclear power plant, Fukushima-Daini, are malfunctioning, according to the Kyodo news agency. The plant is 11km (7 miles) to the south of Fukushima-Daiichi, where the cooling system one of its reactors is not working and pressure is rising.

 

[Wdave]

A second plant with problems...
Quite honestly they should shut down all Nuclear reactors on those sites till they see whats the damage.

The reason the heat is such a problem is complicated, but basically the fuel assemblies keep producing heat even after fission has actually stopped. Bad news that the newer plants are also malfunctioning.

That does make more sense now, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[G.T.Ace]

They are shut down, they aren't producing energy right now, but you still have to cool the stuff, otherwise you will get a meltdown.

Jeez, all of that reminds me why I hate nuclear power so much.

 

[Griffith500]

A second plant with problems...
Quite honestly they should shut down all Nuclear reactors on those sites till they see whats the damage.

That won't fix the heat problems, stopping fission does not stop heat generation. So even if you shut them down, you've still got a crap-ton of thermal energy to get rid of, so they'll probably still be generating electricity from the steam.

EDIT: Just grabbed this on Wikipedia. No idea if it's accurate. It does mean that steam leaks may not be that bad after all, although it still may be bad for the reactor...

Most of the radioactivity in the water is very short-lived (mostly N-16, with a 7-second half-life), so the turbine hall can be entered soon after the reactor is shut down.

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

Good luck to people out there and lets hope that the nuclear problem gets sorted out, This kind of events that make you think about life, and how we take it for granted, we are not guaranteed tommorow. R.I.P.

 

[Wdave]

That won't fix the heat problems, stopping fission does not stop heat generation. So even if you shut them down, you've still got a crap-ton of thermal energy to get rid of, so they'll probably still be generating electricity from the steam.

I know that wont get rid of the heat issues, but i'm saying they should take a step back and look for more problems while the reactors are cooling off.

 

[G.T.Ace]

That won't fix the heat problems, stopping fission does not stop heat generation. So even if you shut them down, you've still got a crap-ton of thermal energy to get rid of, so they'll probably still be generating electricity from the steam.

EDIT: Just grabbed this on Wikipedia. No idea if it's accurate. It does mean that steam leaks may not be that bad after all, although it still may be bad for the reactor...

Well steam leaks happen more often than you would think, that's why they wanted to release some to relieve the pressure. But all of that won't help if it will melt down.

EDIT: @Wdave: The reactors aren't cooling off, which is the main issue here, they need to fix the cooling systems as soon as possible because the material heats itself up more and more until a point where the meltdown appears.

EDIT²:

#
2310: More from the Tokyo Electric Power Company: It says the ability to control pressure in some of the reactors at Fukushima-Daini has been lost. Pressure is stable inside the reactors, but rising in the containment vessels, a company spokesman says.

 

[CDailey]

It takes several days to properly and safely power down a nuclear reactor working at 100% capacity.

Edit: Sorry. I'm on my iPad and didn't realize the discussion had moved on so much.

 

[Wdave]

I hate to be sounding like a total moron.
But now that makes more sense. Although the containment vessel seems more worrying..

 

[Owen.C93]

It's likely they flooded the reactor with water as a substitute to normal cooling methods. Hence all steam pressure that now needs to be released.

 

[G.T.Ace]

You didn't sound like a moron, just like someone who didn't knew all that stuff posted.
I think a lot of people don't know how these plants are working.

@CDailey: Thanks for your input by the way, always good to read stuff from guys who work with the discussed material.

 

[CDailey]

You didn't sound like a moron, just like someone who didn't knew all that stuff posted.
I think a lot of people don't know how these plants are working.

@CDailey: Thanks for your input by the way, always good to read stuff from guys who work with the discussed material.

I don't work directly with it, I'm just security...but In order to work here, they require you to know how the plant operates and that you understand nuclear power in general. We even get tested on it annually (and before you get the job) and if we fail we lose our job.

It's actually pretty neat. In the training center on site, there's a miniature cutout of a reactor with the fuel rods inserted. Very interesting place to work that's for sure.

 

[marxlien]

I`m from Chile (in feb 2010 we suffer an 8.8 earthquake), here thousands of people are being evacuated because of this, but it shouldn't arrive major waves here, it's just for "in case of".

Here in 1962 here occur an 9.6 earthquake (the biggest earthquake registered ever), and it killed 100+ people in Japan.


The Japanese people are really strong, they will raise up really fast, like after the WWII.


PS:sry for my english.

 

[Griffith500]

I've found a .pdf file on BWRs, specifically those used in Japan. I have no idea how up to date it is, but there's some interesting info on the safety devices, specifically a closed-loop core-cooling system used in case of coolant loss, for example.

It can be found here.

The emergency core cooling system (ECCS) is provided for the case when a break accident occurs to reactor coolant system piping etc. and the reactor coolant is lost from a reactor core (loss of coolant accident, LOCA).

Also, the pressure vessel sits in a pressurised containment area with a pool (of water, I assume), which can act as emergency cooling of the ordinary coolant by way of venting into it. This will slowly raise the containment area's pressure until it too requires cooling or venting.

I've no idea how serious this all is in reality. I hope they're just erring massively on the side of caution with their communications so far.

 

[CodeRedR51]

News footage just showed a bunch of brand new cars that were pushed around by the tsunami, and a bunch of them are now on fire. Looked like Nissan's.

 

[Grand Prix]

All of this just makes me realize how long overdue this city is for a major earthquake. This region had a 9 rated earthquake 300 years ago also, but only natives experienced it (with people in Japan seeing the resulting tsunami), the area was still mostly uncharted at the time.

Fortunately, Vancouver Island acts as a natural dike for tsunamis, and almost no one lives on the west coast of it. No nuclear plants either, but there are dams nearby. I imagine most buildings and infrastructure here were built with large earthquakes in mind though.


My condolences to all those affected by this disaster.

 

[r2nyGT5]

News footage just showed a bunch of brand new cars that were pushed around by the tsunami, and a bunch of them are now on fire. Looked like Nissan's.

Yeah I saw those. Pretty crazy. I wonder how the car fires got started?

 

[CodeRedR51]

Yeah I saw those. Pretty crazy. I wonder how the car fires got started?

Leaking fuel + heat from the sun?

Edit: Here's the video

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/11/nhk.japan.cars.on.fire.cnn?hpt=C2

 

[Dotini]

Here's a video of the curious whirlpool. http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/03/what-massive-whirlpool-forms-off-coast-of-japan/

Apparently it lasted for several hours. I'm closer to an hypothesis of physically how and why it formed, but not quite there yet.