NASCAR (Stock cars, Craftsman trucks, etc.) in GT5?

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The only problem is that the United States isn't the world, and most of the NASCAR fans don't play GT. The ones who play GT are mostly fans of F1, Super GT, Le mans, ect ect.

And you know this, how?
Another thing, I never said that Nascars don't have a lot of engineering that goes into them. What I did say though, was that the amount is a LOT less. Did you ever notice in Nascar when they say "mechanics"? In F1 they refer to them as engineers. Before you put words in my mouth, I'm not saying that Nascar doesn't have engineers, but the entire level of education and professionalism is significantly less. They use a lot of "rule of thumbs" and "on the job training" for their engineers. Not the best way to go when trying to come up with something better.
So, you're basically basing your knowledge on the amount of engineering in Nascar based upon what people say? Genius.
I also love how you just happened to compare it to the most advanced autosport in the world. Also genius!

Now let's compare it the WTCC or FIA GT3. Are you not a fan of them either, as I'm pretty sure the engineering of Nascar is higher than both of these.
They weren't all the same.
Not my point. You said they were proud to have them in GT because of their history, even if we didn't like them. Why can't the same apply to Nascar just appearing as 2-3, maybe 4 cars?

Well, for magazines, pick up an issue of "RaceCar Engineering" sometime. Ironic that a magazine about engineering makes fun of NASCAR for being so not technologically advanced when it's apparently so advanced.

One book I know off the top of my head, but slightly older, is "Driving Ambitions" by Alan Jones (his autobiography) . He calls NASCAR "primitive" saying that the teams aren't very professional or organized, and practice sessions basically started off by showing up at a track and saying "lets drive" and that was it.
So 1 magazine, and 1 driver's opinion is now the reason we shouldn't see Nascar?

Btw, we're sorry in America that our races do not consist of the same practice/qualifying were everyone has to show up. Apparently, Mr. Jones fails to realize that we can't wait for 43 race cars to show up before starting practice, cars that are being transported by independent teams, not manufacturers with billions in the bank.
I'm sure you've seen the clothes.
I've seen 2 shirts. That's nothing compared to pro-Nascar clothes that can be found in stores, online, and magazines.

No, that isn't what I meant. Look at the fitness of typical NASCAR drivers, their crew chiefs have an average education of high school and nothing else. Look at their fan base, mainly just a bunch of ignorant beer guzzling rednecks. (please, don't try to make me prove this one, look at the people in the stands at any race) Their cars aren't too advanced so they can relate more to their fans and the "good ole days" ( I've actually heard this numerous times from die-hard NASCAR fans).
Ah, you don't base your opinion on what you hear, you just make ignorant sterotypes.

But since you have such knowledge on this, please point out the beer guzzling rednecks in this picture.
06nascar2pomCrwd1.jpeg


BTW, rednecks are generally people from the southern US. But, the larger majority of Nascar fans is actually estimated to be in the Northeast.

Listen to the commentators, listen to the reasons some of the drivers give for screwing up, the way they explain problems with the car. Oh yea, did I mention the beer? Nascar represents the American way of life, which is why so many Americans love the sports, because it relates to them in a big way.
You just said the main fanbase of Nascar are ignorant, beer-guzzling rednecks, so are you also saying that's how the American way of life is?
It's all very unprofessional. I talk in a more technical manner, with (more) proper terminology than most (if not all) of the drivers/mechanics (what they call their engineers)/ crew chiefs, and anyone else involved in the sport. Even their mentality reeks of ignorance.
Again, you appear to be basing your opinion on word of mouth. But, if their mentality is so poor compared to that of Formula, then why is there a Formula 1 driver in Nascar? Obviously, a man of such professionalism would not be caught in Nascar, a primitive sport that happens to be 1 of the most popular racing series in the world.

Yes thats true. Who said the couldn't run a road course. My question was how many people would actually pick the stockcar over the 2500lb C5R or Viper etc. before perhaps entering an online race at Suzuka Circuit. Im not being biased.., just consider what would you put your money on. Maybe my perception is a bit deeper than others I dont know.

PS: O'yea let me note for the third time to the general; I do not hate NASCAR.
The same people who wouldn't pick the Daimler Chrysler over the 300Bhp Mazda.
 
Btw, we're sorry in America that our races do not consist of the same practice/qualifying were everyone has to show up. Apparently, Mr. Jones fails to realize that we can't wait for 43 race cars to show up before starting practice, cars that are being transported by independent teams, not manufacturers with billions in the bank.

There are a lot of motor sports, probably even in the US, that have a bigger amount of drivers (spread over different race classes, but in the same weekend) that have practise/qualifying.

There is no reason whatsoever that they can't be on time for qualifying.
If they can't be on time for qualifying, why can they be on time for racing?
 
Bottom line. We are car enthusiasts, we love all things automotive. We love the four and six cylinder japansese cars, compact high revers and boosted monsters. We love old american muscle cars from the late 60's - early 70's. Big steel bodied two door sedans with live axle rear suspensions, carbuerated, cast iron, ohv V8s, four speed transmissions.. oh wait.. sounds like a nascar to me. only nascars coil sprung, trailing arm rear suspesions are infinately more advanced than the leaf sprung designs used in 60s muscle cars, and those V8's make 800 hp.

[thread]
 
One of the ugly duckling Formula 1 cars Alan Jones drove

gallery_image_main_207_2.jpg


Do Formula 1 drivers lack so much talent that they need rear wheels 10x larger then the front? Even today the rear wheels are much larger then the front. Many times those from a distance overlook the simple things that make NASCAR difficult, like the fact they use the same sized tires on the front and rear wheels.

Alan Jones Formula 1 career ended in 1986 when stock car racing was nowhere near as professional as it is today. Admittedly, NASCAR was very unprofessional in it's earlier years, but starting from about 25 years ago the sport began to grow and that brought in money and big money sponsors which pushed the teams and drivers to be on top which made them more professional.

And how does Alan Jones know anything about NASCAR? I'm looking at his wikipedia page and all I see is Formula 1, mediocre results in touring cars, and a failed attempt at a comeback due to neck pain. Maybe after he got fired from F1 he tried to get into NASCAR and was rejected and that's why he is so bitter.

Now modern NASCAR teams spend a ton of money on testing and devlopment of the cars, which is much tougher to do then something like F1 because the NASCAR rulebook is so strict as to what you can and cannot touch. You can't just add a fin or an extra wing or two like F1.

Modern NASCAR drivers aren't out of shape and fat or hillibies. NASCAR driver Tony Stewart has become fat, but he has also lost his pace at the same time and no longer is a threat to win a title.
 
I wouldn't say nascar is crap or boring or doesn't require skill and whatnot but it does require a completely different style and skillset from the one I like developing in GT. I'd go as far as to say the difference is like the difference between swimming and hang gliding.

I play GT cos I like GT racing. I can't even be bothered with the rally events and they are way closer to track racing than nascar. It annoys me that to complete the full game I'm gonna have to handbrake a bloody subara through some mud - I have no quibble with anyone who says rally is a valid sport and requires skill and stuff - fine, so does figure skating but I don't like that either. It's a matter of personal taste and I like driving GT cars round GT circuits - so, forgive me if I'm being a dumbass, I went out and bought a game called GT.

I wish they'd dump the rally events and I sure as hell hope they don't add nascar in with that. I also hope they leave out mountain bikes and gymkhana.
 
Now modern NASCAR teams spend a ton of money on testing and devlopment of the cars, which is much tougher to do then something like F1 because the NASCAR rulebook is so strict as to what you can and cannot touch. You can't just add a fin or an extra wing or two like F1.

There goes a lot of money to developing the aerodynamic parts of an F1 car so that it complies with the regulations.
If you don't know the f1 regulations, here they are: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/115F0A1E47E0A282C12573FB0042CB0D/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20TECHNICAL%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf

As for the nascar rulebook, i don't know, because it isn't available for the general public
 
There goes a lot of money to developing the aerodynamic parts of an F1 car so that it complies with the regulations.
If you don't know the f1 regulations, here they are: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/115F0A1E47E0A282C12573FB0042CB0D/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20TECHNICAL%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf

As for the nascar rulebook, i don't know, because it isn't available for the general public

Saying that it's tougher to get more out of a stock car then a F1 car was wrong on my part as I don't know that much about what goes into developing a F1 car. That's what you call making an uninformed statement about something you're not familiar with.

I stand corrected.
 
Even today the rear wheels are much larger then the front.

Are they really?
73068.jpg

diapo_109.jpg

diapo_110.jpg

Im not certain but it may be the fact that for example the moderatly fast Toyota has 740bhp (a technolically adavnced 2.4l V8 I believe) and revs to 19,000rpm (FIA required), has a 7 speed gear box and much like the Williams only weights about 600 'ish' kilograms with the driver. But apparently a slightly wider rear wheel may help when going trough a turn with a 90 degree apex at 140mph+.

As far as drivers being skill 'less' because the rear tires are big.., well I wont even comment on that.

and how does Alan Jones know anything about NASCAR? I'm looking at his wikipedia page and all I see is Formula 1, mediocre results in touring cars, and a failed attempt at a comeback due to neck pain. Maybe after he got fired from F1 he tried to get into NASCAR and was rejected and that's why he is so bitter.

So hes the delegate for the entire F1 world?

which is much tougher to do then something like F1 because the NASCAR rulebook is so strict as to what you can and cannot touch. You can't just add a fin or an extra wing or two like F1.

Im sure if you check the F1 Regulations in there entire detail you may feel different. Theres a reason its known as the pinnacle of motorsport engineering and some have called it "space age engineering".

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/safety/

F1 has led to many innovations that have been homolgated into regular automotive manufacturing like carbon fiber, sequential transmissions, paddle shifters etc. Also after the Death of Senna many other technoligies were developed for example the HANS. Everything down to the gloves of the drivers have been specified an particularly designed. You will find it common that the stiching is inside out because of the fact that drivers would get blisters caused by the 'normal' figuration.

An F1 driver is trained to handle 4Gs, and constantly have straining pressure on there neck. Special weights were designed specifically for the purpose of keeping the drivers neck muscles in shape. I believe it was Jeff Gordon who drove an F1 car a couple years ago and stated something along the lines of; Its a real workout on the neck, those F1 drivers have strong necks and have to be in shape for it (not a direct quote). But heres a video of a few USAF trainees feeling what 4Gs is. Its alot similar to what the drivers experience but instead of going right to left they are simulating a pull (straight up).





Anyways they are indeed extremely strict. Even when it comes to the social perspective. For example, I believe it was the Turkish Grand Prix last year, when presenting the trophies on the podium a political figure made some political remarks and the FIA threaten that F1 wouldn't return to Turkey. Or not too long ago when racist remarks were made by individuals in the stands directed towards Hamilton in Spain. Now that whole GP is on thin ice. Alot of drama that goes on in NASCAR the FIA wouldn't dare tolerate. The drivers and fans represent the sport, and the FIA (from my perspective) wants men to conduct themselves as men with great sportsmanship.


Modern NASCAR drivers aren't out of shape and fat or hillibies. NASCAR driver Tony Stewart has become fat, but he has also lost his pace at the same time and no longer is a threat to win a title.

I agree with you 100%. Many people take small negatives and turn them into a enormous overshadowing cloud that taints the entire organisation. Im sure everyone thats involved in the organisation doesn't have a 'pot' belly full of beer, raise in the south in a shanty shack deep in the woods.., point is all that stuff is rediculous though some stereotypes mite be true to certain individuals we have to remember the word: Individuals.
 
And you know this, how?
Because I use my brain. I live 30 minutes from West Virginia. 17 years of living around rednecks has showed me (with absolutely zero exceptions) that way of life is VERY similar to each other.

*Mclaren*
So, you're basically basing your knowledge on the amount of engineering in Nascar based upon what people say? Genius.
I also love how you just happened to compare it to the most advanced autosport in the world. Also genius!
No, I'm not comparing it to what people say, I'm comparing it to what knowledgeable people say. It's not like I've been there to see them design the car, and I doubt you have either.

*Mclaren*
Now let's compare it the WTCC or FIA GT3. Are you not a fan of them either, as I'm pretty sure the engineering of Nascar is higher than both of these.
Higher maybe, but not necessarily better. Which series has more technologically advanced cars? Which one has more advanced aerodynamics?

*Mclaren*
Not my point. You said they were proud to have them in GT because of their history, even if we didn't like them. Why can't the same apply to Nascar just appearing as 2-3, maybe 4 cars?
I don't mind having one, but I think if they do, it should just be 1 base car, with different paint jobs to match different manufacturers.


*Mclaren*
So 1 magazine, and 1 driver's opinion is now the reason we shouldn't see Nascar?
That's 1 more driver's opinion, and 1 more magazine than you have bothered to prove me otherwise.

I'm sorry if I didn't go searching through all of my magazines and all the tv shows and anything else I've seen to provide the most complete list of NASCAR bashing.

*Mclaren*
Btw, we're sorry in America that our races do not consist of the same practice/qualifying were everyone has to show up. Apparently, Mr. Jones fails to realize that we can't wait for 43 race cars to show up before starting practice, cars that are being transported by independent teams, not manufacturers with billions in the bank.
That isn't what he meant. He meant that there is little real preparation involved in testing and improving the car, they just show up at a track and run laps.

*Mclaren*
I've seen 2 shirts. That's nothing compared to pro-Nascar clothes that can be found in stores, online, and magazines.
NASCAR has a huge fanbase, it's going to have pro-nascar clothing, what's your point?


*Mclaren*
Ah, you don't base your opinion on what you hear, you just make ignorant sterotypes.
If they don't fall into those categories, they aren't rednecks. It's a word used to describe those types of individuals.

*Mclaren*
But since you have such knowledge on this, please point out the beer guzzling rednecks in this picture.
06nascar2pomCrwd1.jpeg


BTW, rednecks are generally people from the southern US. But, the larger majority of Nascar fans is actually estimated to be in the Northeast.
The Cracker pretty much got that one spot-on.


*Mclaren*
You just said the main fanbase of Nascar are ignorant, beer-guzzling rednecks, so are you also saying that's how the American way of life is?
The United States population's average IQ is 98.

*Mclaren*
Again, you appear to be basing your opinion on word of mouth. But, if their mentality is so poor compared to that of Formula, then why is there a Formula 1 driver in Nascar? Obviously, a man of such professionalism would not be caught in Nascar, a primitive sport that happens to be 1 of the most popular racing series in the world.
So when did popularity define how technologically advanced something was?

I don't see what your point is with F1 drivers moving to NASCAR.
 
Do Formula 1 drivers lack so much talent that they need rear wheels 10x larger then the front? Even today the rear wheels are much larger then the front. Many times those from a distance overlook the simple things that make NASCAR difficult, like the fact they use the same sized tires on the front and rear wheels.
That is just dumb, I´m sorry. F1 cars have been running same-sized tyres for at least a decade. The F2008 just to see what I mean.



Alan Jones Formula 1 career ended in 1986 when stock car racing was nowhere near as professional as it is today. Admittedly, NASCAR was very unprofessional in it's earlier years, but starting from about 25 years ago the sport began to grow and that brought in money and big money sponsors which pushed the teams and drivers to be on top which made them more professional.
"Earlier years"? haven´t NASCAR been around since like the 50´s??
Now modern NASCAR teams spend a ton of money on testing and devlopment of the cars, which is much tougher to do then something like F1 because the NASCAR rulebook is so strict as to what you can and cannot touch. You can't just add a fin or an extra wing or two like F1.

Modern NASCAR drivers aren't out of shape and fat or hillibies. NASCAR driver Tony Stewart has become fat, but he has also lost his pace at the same time and no longer is a threat to win a title.
As for strict rules, F1 is probably the most restricted motorsport in the world, wich is why their engineers also are the best in the world. Constantly trying to develop a car that is basically heavily regulated in every area, to find hundreds, and even thousands, of a second really takes a brilliant mind.

The issue of NASCAR drivers being fit, is really not an issue. They ARE basically very fit, but not in the same way F1 drivers are. A 100m sprinter is very fit, but so is a marathonrunner.

OT though, I wouldn´t mind having a couple of stockcars in GT. Not at all! It would be a real blast to muscle one around the Nürburgring Nordschleife!
 
That is just dumb, I´m sorry. F1 cars have been running same-sized tyres for at least a decade.

Before calling someone dumb, I suggest you make darn sure your facts are right. And in this case they aren't.

The rear tires of modern Formula 1 cars and pretty much every single openwheel car are wider then the front
 
Before calling someone dumb, I suggest you make darn sure your facts are right. And in this case they aren't.

The rear tires of modern Formula 1 cars and pretty much every single openwheel car are wider then the front

Lets not lead to insulting on another. But,

Of course there wider. If you have read my previous post full of facts your accusations that didn't provide facts maybe proven differently.
 
Before calling someone dumb, I suggest you make darn sure your facts are right. And in this case they aren't.

The rear tires of modern Formula 1 cars and pretty much every single openwheel car are wider then the front


You´re right, I´m very sorry. The difference can be as much as 75 mm F/R, and is no less than 10 mm. They have the same diameter though.
From the offical F1 regulations:
12.4 Wheel dimensions :
12.4.1 Complete wheel width must lie between 305 and 355mm when fitted to the front of the car and between 365 and 380mm when fitted to the rear.
12.4.2 Complete wheel diameter must not exceed 660mm when fitted with dry-weather tyres or 670mm when fitted with wet-weather tyres.

Out of curiousity: does anyone know what kind of downforcelevels COT has?
 
Before GT4 came out, Kaz mentioned that he would like for the series to provide a history lesson on cars, which is why we see a large variety of iconic cars from all over the world in his 4th installment. Why would his vision for GT5 change? Besides the ‘superbird,’ I was surprised that NASCAR was largely ignored in GT4. Whether people like it or not, NASCAR is the biggest motor sport in the US and the US is obviously a large market for PD. NASCAR has already been represented in one form or another in the GT series and now that PD included Daytona Speedway, it makes logical sense that NASCAR will be represented again in GT5.

I don’t even like NASCAR, and I typically do not comment on threads. With that being said, this is the most biased and opinionated thread I’ve seen on GT Planet in a while. You guys are just "nit picking" each others comments to the point of thrashing each other. Personally, I do not understand why so many people are adamantly against the inclusion of one particular motor sport. (even if it is redneck)
 
I don't wish to get involved in the debate here but I do want to put forward my own two cents.

Firstly, in response to the OP, I wouldn't have any objection to PD putting in NASCAR, but I don't think they could do the series justice, in that because they have no particular licence to any series they would have to miss out on a great deal of the ovals, and those that were used wouldn't be of much use to any other car in the game - 200mph silhouette space framed cars are one thing, 60bhp Japanese Kei cars are another. Anything with less than 500bhp would be pretty boring on all the ovals.

So yes, lacking the licence means it would be a shadow of the proper series, and although GT has a large American user base I get the impression that the popularity of the game in the States is down to the amount of imports that American players don't get to see on US roads, and the inclusion in games like GT4 of a decent selection of muscle cars. I think it would be an under-used section of the game.

On a different note, I even think the same with drag racing, which would get boring as you don't have the subtlety launching a virtual car as you do a real one.

On the subject of NASCAR in general, I fail to see why there's such a divide between the lovers and haters. At the end of the day, it's a very popular form of motorsport, and the "my motorsport is better than yours" attitude of a number of people here is quite sad.And argueing the technical merits of one sport against the other is like argueing the merits of the difference in shape between a rugby ball and a soccer ball.

I'm not a fan of NASCAR myself - I maybe watch one or two races a year if they're on TV. It doesn't excite me in the same way Touring Cars or even single-make club racing do, but then i've grown up watching circuit racing and not oval racing. But I can see the appeal - some top drivers who are obviously very skilled at what they do, a heavy commercial bias that actually improves rather than detracts from the sport, very close racing, and cars that sound fantastic.

Calling all fans 'rednecks' is a bit unfair. I'm sure plenty are, but even then the term is a bit derogatory when the majority of these are simply passionate fans and supporting a sport that's rooted in their culture. I'd love to go to a race like Daytona and soak up the atmosphere and the racing, but it wouldn't make me a drunken redneck.
 
I've seen people ruin a perfectly healthy debate because of there misjudgement and misconception of peoples opinions and perspectives. I cant begin to describe how rediculous it sounds for people to get worked up over a conversation involving a video game, on the internet. Its a wonder how some make it five hours in the real world, when simple disagreements and stand points are opposed over a computer. Especially when the main question in the topic of discussion has be answered favoring the general crowd. I believe everyone either said they don't care or wouldn't mind having stock cars in GT5, or my view; having the same car with different liveries or a handful of 80s official stockcars. Of course we only agree with some exceptions, if everyone was 100% on the same decision and perspective how much of a debate would it really be. Im done with stating my opinion, then backing it, then being bashed rite in the head for thinking differently while being called "biased" or "knit picking". It seems if people would read and think about the replys given and take the time view and think about others points we could probably conduct a conversation like grown men, instead of trying to convince others there opinions are wrong and persistantly trying to insult one anothers intelligence. Theres just too much complaining and wining over something that will render completely irrelevant at the end of the day. When GT5 is released perhaps it will have stockcars.., thats cool we've all stated that. If it doesn't well some will be upset but others wont really care. Either way this thread will be irrelevant in time to come, so don't get worked up over something so simple, get over it. As far as stereotypes and racism.., well this is where I get off because some people have apparently taken others comments to the heart. But once again I will continue my trend of repeating things over and over for those fail to read and consume.


I agree with you 100%. Many people take small negatives and turn them into a enormous overshadowing cloud that taints the entire organisation. Im sure everyone thats involved in the organisation doesn't have a 'pot' belly full of beer, raise in the south in a shanty shack deep in the woods.., point is all that stuff is rediculous though some stereotypes mite be true to certain individuals we have to remember the word: Individuals


Cheers 👍.
 
Because I use my brain. I live 30 minutes from West Virginia. 17 years of living around rednecks has showed me (with absolutely zero exceptions) that way of life is VERY similar to each other.
How exactly is this proof Nascar fans don't play GT, though?

Wait, why am I asking. You don't have that kind of evidence, and there's no way you can prove it.
No, I'm not comparing it to what people say, I'm comparing it to what knowledgeable people say. It's not like I've been there to see them design the car, and I doubt you have either.
So, the choice of wording makes Nascar folks unprofessional, and unintelligent?

Referring to them as mechanics does NOT make them unintelligent because guess what, they're RIGHT. A Mechanic is someone who is skilled in making, using, or repairing machines, vehicles, and tools which is exactly what the team does.

If someone wanted to, they could call Formula 1 drivers calling their mechanics engineers wrong, as an engineer refers to several different definitions, such as managing an enterprise, operating an engine, or one who is trained in a branch of engineering.

Mechanic is easily a better term for referring to race car engineers as the definition is not as broad. Both series, though, are correct in what they call them.
Higher maybe, but not necessarily better. Which series has more technologically advanced cars? Which one has more advanced aerodynamics?
The Nascars may not be as technologically advanced, but that's due to the rules. The rules state there can not be any form of electronic except analog. Unlike some racing series, a computer does not work with a Nascar. It is all driver control, and because there are no electronics, a Nascar is considered 1 of the toughest vehicles to drive. There's absolutely no ABS or computerized engine controls. 60 pages out of the 90 page rule book specifically tell teams what technology is and isn't allowed.

I don't mind having one, but I think if they do, it should just be 1 base car, with different paint jobs to match different manufacturers.
So, we can't have different Nascars, but several R34 GT-Rs where the only difference between them is smaller than the difference between 2 Nascars of different manufacturers is fine?
That's 1 more driver's opinion, and 1 more magazine than you have bothered to prove me otherwise.
Why do I have to proof anything? You're the one who claimed there were several TV shows, magazines, and books by racing drivers, and you've only showed 2, neither of which is a TV show.

That isn't the point, though. The ratio of pro-Nascar is more than likely higher than anti-Nascar stuff. But yet, you feel the minor folks should be given what they want. I think the same should apply to the small amount of folks who don't want 20 Skyline GT-Rs.
That isn't what he meant. He meant that there is little real preparation involved in testing and improving the car, they just show up at a track and run laps.
He's still an ignorant fool, then. Like him, you must not know just how much preparation does go into a Nascar. When you're able to set your ignorance aside, go look at what happens during the off-season.
NASCAR has a huge fanbase, it's going to have pro-nascar clothing, what's your point?
You said I've seen the clothes that are anti-Nascar. No, I haven't except for 2, and those 2 are nothing compared to the higher ratio of clothes that are pro-Nascar.
If they don't fall into those categories, they aren't rednecks. It's a word used to describe those types of individuals.
That's not the point. You're sterotyping that Nascar fans are all beer-guzzling rednecks.

And just for the record, here's a def. of redneck.
A slang term, usually for a rural white southerner who is politically conservative, racist, and a religious fundamentalist (see fundamentalism). This term is generally considered offensive. It originated in reference to agricultural workers, alluding to how the back of a person's neck will be burned by the sun if he works long hours in the fields.
Again, please tell me how you know these are white southerners who are racist, religious fundamentalists, or politically conservative.

And if we wanted to go by the assumption of rednecks being fat, beer-drinking folks who live in trailer parks and promote incest, I'd love to know how you know all those people are of that definition as well.
The Cracker pretty much got that one spot-on.
The Cracker's response is not a serious one, as I doubt TheCracker is a sterotype. You on the other hand, are. You have no proof from that photo that all those people are rednecks.
The United States population's average IQ is 98.
Then I guess you, me, and everyone in the US is a beer guzzling redneck since that is what Nascar represents according to you.
So when did popularity define how technologically advanced something was?
You weren't talking about how technologically advanced Nascar is. You're claiming F1 folks are more professional when they call their mechanics engineers, even though mechanic is the actual term of a F1 engineer.
I don't see what your point is with F1 drivers moving to NASCAR.
You claim F1 is full of professionalism, and that Nascar isn't. Why would a F1 driver go into a "primitive" sport, then?

Your posts are starting to reek of being uninformed, and poorly-made assumptions of people you don't know.
 
Im done with stating my opinion, then backing it, then being bashed rite in the head for thinking differently while being called "biased" or "knit picking".... But once again I will continue my trend of repeating things over and over for those fail to read and consume.

My comments were not directed toward you, they were about this thread in general.
I guess now I am guilty of knit picking quotes too. :sly:

Generally Speaking: The bashing has gone on long enough, I'd like to see an end of the NASCAR vs. F1 flame war. The topic is whether or not NASCAR will be in GT5. I think at this point we all understand each others opinion on the matter.

It's safe to say that NASCAR could be included in the game. Let's move forward with the discussion.
 
It would have to be drastically compromised to add NASCAR.

if GT5 is such a great simulator, it won't have to be compromised. They'll just have to put the car(s) in the game, give us a few ovals, and give us some rules.
 
How exactly is this proof Nascar fans don't play GT, though?
It's not, nor did I ever say that. I said the majority of GT players aren't NASCAR fans. I don't have "proof" but the evidence is all there, and you know it.

*McLaren*
Wait, why am I asking. You don't have that kind of evidence, and there's no way you can prove it.
If you choose to ignore the evidence just because there's no solid "proof" then you're being hard-headed.


*McLaren*
So, the choice of wording makes Nascar folks unprofessional, and unintelligent?
Yes, very much so. You're knowledge is reflected in the way you speak. If you can't say words properly or use correct grammar, I have no reason to believe you're better at anything else. I don't even know why you chose to bring this up.


*McLaren*
Referring to them as mechanics does NOT make them unintelligent because guess what, they're RIGHT. A Mechanic is someone who is skilled in making, using, or repairing machines, vehicles, and tools which is exactly what the team does.
I am a mechanic. I don't have to be skilled in making, or using the machines/vehicles I work on. I just have to know how to turn wrenches and diagnose problems.

An engineer is someone is is skilled at designing and constructing whatever branch of engineering he takes part in. Big difference. I can't design a NASCAR, but I can put one together.


*McLaren*
If someone wanted to, they could call Formula 1 drivers calling their mechanics engineers wrong, as an engineer refers to several different definitions, such as managing an enterprise, operating an engine, or one who is trained in a branch of engineering.
That's like me saying you're wrong to call yourself gay when you're happy because there are several different definitions.



*McLaren*
The Nascars may not be as technologically advanced, but that's due to the rules. The rules state there can not be any form of electronic except analog. Unlike some racing series, a computer does not work with a Nascar. It is all driver control, and because there are no electronics, a Nascar is considered 1 of the toughest vehicles to drive. There's absolutely no ABS or computerized engine controls. 60 pages out of the 90 page rule book specifically tell teams what technology is and isn't allowed.
I know it's due to the rules, but regardless, I mentioned I liked great engineering. Compared to Formula 1 (the #1 spot on the list) NASCAR is lacking.



*McLaren*
So, we can't have different Nascars, but several R34 GT-Rs where the only difference between them is smaller than the difference between 2 Nascars of different manufacturers is fine?
That's only true for the 2 special colored Skylines.


*McLaren*
Why do I have to proof anything? You're the one who claimed there were several TV shows, magazines, and books by racing drivers, and you've only showed 2, neither of which is a TV show.
I'm just supporting my own views of NASCAR here, not why they shouldn't be in GT5.


*McLaren*
That isn't the point, though. The ratio of pro-Nascar is more than likely higher than anti-Nascar stuff. But yet, you feel the minor folks should be given what they want. I think the same should apply to the small amount of folks who don't want 20 Skyline GT-Rs.
You're taking a ratio of pro-nascar/anti-nascar stuff in the entire world, and using it to say that since there is more Pro-NASCAR stuff in the world, then there must be more Pro-NASCAR GT fans than not. Entire world numbers don't apply to specific groups of people, it's a general statement.


*McLaren*
He's still an ignorant fool, then. Like him, you must not know just how much preparation does go into a Nascar. When you're able to set your ignorance aside, go look at what happens during the off-season.
He did something related to Oval Racing at one point, but I can't remember exactly what it was, although, I'd much rather believe someone who has been a lot closer and spent a lot more time in the racing environment at it's highest form than someone on the internet calling him an ignorant fool.

You said I make poor assumptions.


*McLaren*
That's not the point. You're sterotyping that Nascar fans are all beer-guzzling rednecks.
Did I really? If I remember correctly, I said "mainly" not "all".

*McLaren*
Again, please tell me how you know these are white southerners who are racist, religious fundamentalists, or politically conservative.
Well, If I take all the people I've lived around for these past 17 years, that sounds about right.

*McLaren*
And if we wanted to go by the assumption of rednecks being fat, beer-drinking folks who live in trailer parks and promote incest, I'd love to know how you know all those people are of that definition as well.

The Cracker's response is not a serious one, as I doubt TheCracker is a sterotype. You on the other hand, are. You have no proof from that photo that all those people are rednecks.
Think about it, what is the most likely description of those people? Rednecks, or intelligent individuals with college degrees?

*McLaren*
Then I guess you, me, and everyone in the US is a beer guzzling redneck since that is what Nascar represents according to you.
Rednecks are American. I'm not. There is however, the equivalent of redneck but for people from other countries. I know there's one in Russian.
*McLaren*
You weren't talking about how technologically advanced Nascar is. You're claiming F1 folks are more professional when they call their mechanics engineers, even though mechanic is the actual term of a F1 engineer.
Their engineers usually don't actually do a lot of wrenching on the car.

*McLaren*
You claim F1 is full of professionalism, and that Nascar isn't. Why would a F1 driver go into a "primitive" sport, then?
There's are infinite reasons why someone would go, I'm not going to get into that.

*McLaren*
Your posts are starting to reek of being uninformed, and poorly-made assumptions of people you don't know.
You just seem to bash on me for not having solid proof for what I say. In general, there isn't any proof for most of this stuff, in your favor or mine. I'm just using logic and the evidence around me, but you just seem to using the mentality that "if there's no proof, it's automatically wrong"


This is getting a bit into personal issues though, lets keep this out.


In the end I don't really care if we have a few stock cars in the game, I just don't really like them, so if it was my choice I wouldn't put them in. The rest of the stuff is just defending myself from people who seem to think I'm just another idiots who thinks NASCAR sucks because they turn left and they're domestic.
 
It's not, nor did I ever say that. I said the majority of GT players aren't NASCAR fans. I don't have "proof" but the evidence is all there, and you know it.

No the evidence isn't there, you are just making things up and trying to pass it off as valid fact. NASCAR is the number one spectator sport in America and number two on the television (Source). With something that popular I am willing to bet that many of the fans have Playstation consoles and play GT game because they, like all of us, are gear heads. It doesn't matter if you are into Honda Accords or Chevy Camaro or BMW 3-series...GT is a game that allows you to experience something that you probably otherwise could not with fairly decent realism. Some people like stock car racings, others rally, people want to experience it all.

And please stop making assumptions and false statements. If you don't have proof say "I personally don't think" as that is your opinion. You are entitled to think whatever you want, no matter if it's right or wrong.
 
2008alonsofandbarca400.jpg


Oh my God, F1 fans are the cream of the crop in motorsports, just look how classey an knowledgeable of the sport they are. No bear guzzling, they wear shirts and they have all their teeth.

I'll take these college educated guys over a bunch high school drop out rednecks

:rolleyes:
 
No the evidence isn't there, you are just making things up and trying to pass it off as valid fact. NASCAR is the number one spectator sport in America and number two on the television (Source). With something that popular I am willing to bet that many of the fans have Playstation consoles and play GT game because they, like all of us, are gear heads. It doesn't matter if you are into Honda Accords or Chevy Camaro or BMW 3-series...GT is a game that allows you to experience something that you probably otherwise could not with fairly decent realism. Some people like stock car racings, others rally, people want to experience it all.

And please stop making assumptions and false statements. If you don't have proof say "I personally don't think" as that is your opinion. You are entitled to think whatever you want, no matter if it's right or wrong.
Do you have any worldwide statistics?

I expected that much in America.

As for evidence, is it really not there?

How about GTPlanet itself?

There are more threads and posts in the F1 forum than the entire "other motorsports" section, but hey, let's be blind and ignore that fact.

If I say "I personally don't think" then I'm just speaking for myself. I'm speaking for a lot of other GT players as well. (I would say most but since I don't have proof I'm automatically wrong and you're right.)
 
2008alonsofandbarca400.jpg


Oh my God, F1 fans are the cream of the crop in motorsports, just look how classey an knowledgeable of the sport they are. No bear guzzling, they wear shirts and they have all their teeth.

I'll take these college educated guys over a bunch high school drop out rednecks

:rolleyes

you have to be ****ing kidding me :grumpy:

even the talladega infield has more class than this
 
Do you have any worldwide statistics?

I expected that much in America.

As for evidence, is it really not there?

How about GTPlanet itself?

If I say "I personally don't think" then I'm just speaking for myself. I'm speaking for a lot of other GT players as well. (I would say most but since I don't have proof I'm automatically wrong and you're right.)

No, I can not find statistics for worldwide other then it's broadcast in 150 out of the 195 countries in the world. If they are broadcasting it there, obviously someone is watching it or the TV networks wouldn't pay to NASCAR so they could air it. I met people in the UK who watched it, although that doesn't speak for the population.

No the evidence is not there, I'm yet to see you source anything to a creditable site. If you don't have evidence then don't bring it up.

Also I don't think you should be talking for GT players, they have their own voice and should be allowed to use it however they like. And yes because you said most without any evidence to back it up you are indeed incorrect, for all you know there could be millions of NASCAR GT playing fans in the world.

I have shown that a.) Nascar is broadcast throughout the world in many languages, b.) that Nascar is the most popular event in America, and c.) that Nascar is the second most viewed sporting event on tv in America. You however have shown nothing but biased remarks and misleading statements.

===

According to this article that was published in 2004:
http://www.thismagazine.ca/issues/2004/07/nascar.php

This Magazine
Officials claim it has 72 million fans throughout the world, although most of them seem to be in the closet outside of the American South.
 
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