- 1,846
- Arizona
- maxpontiac
They really need to get this over to online.
NFS Shift 2 Unleashed - Details
- Thread starter LittleLefty
- 2,278 comments
- 245,096 views
They really need to get this over to online.
- 1,116
- Gassolini
OK... if nothing else I pin my hopes on SMS having the wits to allow zero steering deadzone. I can live with somewhat reduced forces around center when the wheels aren't loaded in order to supress oscillation.
Driving games with an actual steering deadzone goes straight in the bin here. I don't want "simulation" of dangerously worn out steering racks and and links.
@ johngt : That's a spiffy avatar you've got there!
DJ
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Syntax error
Staff Emeritus
- 3,438
- Melbourne
- Fett_up
- totallyfettup
- 403
- Reaper7411
The end result is about the same though. Not enough feedback (spring) to bring the wheel to proper center--just this kind of vague play in the wheel on straights. It gets within an inch or so and just leaves you hanging.
Actually the worst offense of shift1's FFB was that when turning into a corner, I could feel feedback against me, but if I snapped the wheel the other direction or corrected, there was a lag before the feedback caught up to me having gone the other direction. Totally limp wheel for miles in the opposite direction.
Shift1 may have had all kinds of wheel settings (and playing with them helped), but even at it's best, Shift1 was the worst FFB I have ever experienced. I guess I'm a bit hurt that SMS looked us all in the eyes and lied to us about the sim quality of Shift1, and they're recycling the exact same verbiage again. Oh but we're to believe it's "better" this time.
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- 13,917
- Adelaide
- Neomone
I actually thought that was a feature of the FFB. I felt like I could feel how the weight of the car was being pushed through the FFB. It may have been wrong, but that's how I thought of it.
I thought of it in the same was as Ferrari Challenge/SCC's force feedback. It wasn't strictly realistic, but it was trying to convey some additional information to you through the wheel that you'd usually get through the seat of your pants.
Of course, I could be totally wrong and it was just crap. And there were a lot of aspects of the FFB were pretty whack. But that particular feature wasn't one that I felt was an error.
- 1,116
- Gassolini
I think I see what you mean; the force feedback dead zone leading to not getting sufficient self straightening effect. However, in this respect, both GT5 and the good old GTR series (and some other sims) have given me enough to go by. I.e. the driving feels natural enough, with a bit getting used to it, so that I don't really have to think about the centering issue and have no big problems keeping the car going straight and doing fine maneuvering around the wheel center. Not entirely optimal, but enough to not ruin things. As for centering spring forces, I'll set that to zero where possible.
Well, since I generally start out not thinking that people lie, I could be classified as a gullible sucker - it has brought me in trouble previously, that's for sure...
DJ
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- 13,917
- Adelaide
- Neomone
- 2,840
Come on guys, how long can u blame camera angles and fov? There is a preview up at racesimcentral.com and the author makes 2 important points. The first is that while shift 2's physics are improved over shift 1, it's still far from being a hardcore sim. The second is that the track models are innacurate and, as myself and others were torched for pointing out, Bathurst is too wide.
I maintain that I will wait for the reviews then decide whether to buy it, but arcade physics and innacurate tracks are 2 pretty big deal breakers for me...
Let's hope the rest of the game makes up for it
- 13,917
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Who expected it to be? Improved over Shift 1 is about all anyone expected.
The developers have said that they used CAD data. The reviewers have said that it's twice as wide as it should be. Until someone comes up with a shot of six cars parked side by side through the tight sections, we just don't know. Neither source is wholly reliable. The developers have an agenda to maintain the aura of realism, and the reviewers are just eyeballing it.
- 2,352
- Michigan
- FuriousDemon
Ouch..."hardcore racers will find the steering wheel support lacking in feel." I could care less (well, to a certain extent of course) about track accuracy, but a proper wheel feedback is a must to properly enjoy the game.
boxox, looks like we are counting on you and the rest of the crew to get this one sorted out post-release
This sounds great:
"Simply put, this is some of the most entertaining AI ever put in a racing game."
Also,
" Just like before, DLC will be limited to PS3 and 360 only. The reason is feasibility: there’s no good way of supporting PC DLC from a marketing standpoint." So basically they dont know how to "sell" the DLC on PC, not how to patch it into the game. Makes sense.
boxox, looks like we are counting on you and the rest of the crew to get this one sorted out post-release
This sounds great:
"Simply put, this is some of the most entertaining AI ever put in a racing game."
Also,
" Just like before, DLC will be limited to PS3 and 360 only. The reason is feasibility: there’s no good way of supporting PC DLC from a marketing standpoint." So basically they dont know how to "sell" the DLC on PC, not how to patch it into the game. Makes sense.
- 2,352
- Michigan
- FuriousDemon
Hey denis,
I remember I read somewhere that you could tune ECUs in shift 2. Do you have any more details on that? What exactly can you tune?
Thanks!
I remember I read somewhere that you could tune ECUs in shift 2. Do you have any more details on that? What exactly can you tune?
Thanks!
Upgrading your car there are some ECU parameters. Tomorrow I will put game in console and look it. Now I'm going to sleep.
- 2,091
- Glasgow
- Flaw3dGenius23
Come on guys, how long can u blame camera angles and fov? There is a preview up at racesimcentral.com and the author makes 2 important points. The first is that while shift 2's physics are improved over shift 1, it's still far from being a hardcore sim. The second is that the track models are innacurate and, as myself and others were torched for pointing out, Bathurst is too wide.
I maintain that I will wait for the reviews then decide whether to buy it, but arcade physics and innacurate tracks are 2 pretty big deal breakers for me...
Let's hope the rest of the game makes up for it
I dont think anyone expected a hardcore sim hence we have never seen one on console's yet! However I do believe this will be closer to real life racing than what GT5 or Forza 3 does and that is what alot of us want!
Destinkeys
(Banned)
- 1,199
- Destinkeys
As someone who grew up watching the Bathurst 1000, hasn't missed a race in over 15 years and has spent slot of time actually driving the circuit, I trust my own judgement
You ever driven the track with one eye closed and half your FOV restricted by blinkers, wearing prescription glasses that makes everything look further away?
Because that's what you would have to do to replicate any game footage...
- 1,116
- Gassolini
Here's the link for that preview.
Sort of what I expected so far...
My seemingly insignificant pet peeve with this game now seem to be an intentional "feature" : "...the wind causes the mirrors and hood to buffet.". I say seemingly insignificant because I find the wobbly mirrors distracting as hell in the videos where it's highlighted. On my daily driver the mirrors are absolutely rigid at speeds in excess of 250km/h, and the same is true for my other car although it only does around 240km/h. That one of the latest videos clearly showed the internal mirror wobbling about is even stranger. I can understand that a light weight composite bonnet can buffet some. Someone driving real racing cars, please tell me, are the mirrors flapping about at speed (I know vibration can cause them to blur)?
DJ
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- 2,840
You ever driven the track with one eye closed and half your FOV restricted by blinkers, wearing prescription glasses that makes everything look further away?
Because that's what you would have to do to replicate any game footage...
Haha, can't say I've tried that one. Not sure that I really want to either...
Ouch..."hardcore racers will find the steering wheel support lacking in feel." I could care less (well, to a certain extent of course) about track accuracy, but a proper wheel feedback is a must to properly enjoy the game.
boxox, looks like we are counting on you and the rest of the crew to get this one sorted out post-release
Yeah, I don't know
There were bugs and typos in some of the wheel profiles for Shift. Eg, some had rear wheels influencing FFB, some had the wrong accelerator range set, some had gamepad dampening enabled (though this last one was fixed in a patch). So what you got really depended on what wheel you used out of the box.
To an extent I wonder if a lot of people just don't like what it's trying to do in the first place. Eg, ideally this is supposed to work very similarly to an rFactor mod using 100% RealFeel. So the only canned effect they had was, I think, for gear changes. There is nothing that centres the wheel, other than the steering arms in the 3d world. There is nothing that jolts the wheel, other than one or both of the steering arms encountering a bump. There is nothing that vibrates the wheel, other than travelling over a surface type that has a rough surface pattern on it, and even then it's not something that is fixed to a set rate, it's totally relational to contact over the surface/speed over the surface/etc. If you encounter something that affects both sides of the steering arms similarly, left/right side events can cancel each other out or amplify each other.
This is stuff they did on purpose. It's not going to resemble something that fakes those effects, or boosts or amplifies them, or has some minimum set for what they can possibly be, etc. It's the tyre model, connected to the wheel spindle, connected to the steering arms, connected to the steering column, and you see the last step of that only, and only when it arrives there/produces a force strong enough to notice.
- 13,917
- Adelaide
- Neomone
As someone who grew up watching the Bathurst 1000, hasn't missed a race in over 15 years and has spent slot of time actually driving the circuit, I trust my own judgement
I can respect that, but you can see how that's not enough for other people. Given that it will be a relatively easy test once the game is out (grab some friends, see how many cars you can park side by side between the walls) and that we have conflicting information from several sources who all claim to be definitive, I'd prefer if people held off on lambasting the game for inaccurate tracks just yet.
Believe me, if it turns out that they've messed with the width of the tracks I'll be right behind you in calling for their heads. It's an important thing, and it's not something you get wrong by accident. Particularly with this track. My profile says I'm in Japan, but I'm actually Australian. Of all the tracks that they might have messed with, this one would piss me off the most.
- 1,116
- Gassolini
^ Aye! The attraction of some tracks is precisely that they have some scary and demanding properties like narrow sections, sudden elevation changes, bumps and so on. I hope these are retained in the game and not subject to smoothing out in the name of "gameplay".
DJ
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DJ
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- 2,352
- Michigan
- FuriousDemon
Yeah, I don't know
There were bugs and typos in some of the wheel profiles for Shift. Eg, some had rear wheels influencing FFB, some had the wrong accelerator range set, some had gamepad dampening enabled (though this last one was fixed in a patch). So what you got really depended on what wheel you used out of the box.
To an extent I wonder if a lot of people just don't like what it's trying to do in the first place. Eg, ideally this is supposed to work very similarly to an rFactor mod using 100% RealFeel. So the only canned effect they had was, I think, for gear changes. There is nothing that centres the wheel, other than the steering arms in the 3d world. There is nothing that jolts the wheel, other than one or both of the steering arms encountering a bump. There is nothing that vibrates the wheel, other than travelling over a surface type that has a rough surface pattern on it, and even then it's not something that is fixed to a set rate, it's totally relational to contact over the surface/speed over the surface/etc. If you encounter something that affects both sides of the steering arms similarly, left/right side events can cancel each other out or amplify each other.
This is stuff they did on purpose. It's not going to resemble something that fakes those effects, or boosts or amplifies them, or has some minimum set for what they can possibly be, etc. It's the tyre model, connected to the wheel spindle, connected to the steering arms, connected to the steering column, and you see the last step of that only, and only when it arrives there/produces a force strong enough to notice.
I see...So what you're basically saying is that the model itself is true to life. I suspect then that their calibration of that model may be a bit off. The main thing that bugs me about the FFB, after the patches even and getting the right settings, is how the car behaves on the straight line. There seems to be a lag between the wheel input and the vehicle's response. I'm not sure if this has something to do with the speed of the vehicle but it seems to be present even at lower speeds.
- 229
- Jamesways
I see...So what you're basically saying is that the model itself is true to life. I suspect then that their calibration of that model may be a bit off. The main thing that bugs me about the FFB, after the patches even and getting the right settings, is how the car behaves on the straight line. There seems to be a lag between the wheel input and the vehicle's response. I'm not sure if this has something to do with the speed of the vehicle but it seems to be present even at lower speeds.
Another thing you have to remember in all of this is that both Jordan and Matt (who did the write up on racesimcentral) had issues with the settings. The game build on both PCs simply wouldn't save any adjustments they did whatsoever. They constantly ran at the default wheel settings.
I know that doesn't really affect the underlying physics, but it's something to keep in mind for the final release. Any settings you can change and save will probably make a difference on ffb feel.
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