North Korea, Sanctions, and Kim Jong-un

[gokartman78]

Lol, really?

Hardly a laughing matter, 24 million people starving to death.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...e_hermit_kingdom_suffer_so_many_famines_.html

That was almost a year ago when NK agreed to suspend nuclear testing for food. Before these current sanctions were imposed..

 

[Scaff]

Thats perfect! We can commit war crimes because we did not sign the treaty and we can invade every country that did sign the treaty even when we don't have proof of them violating the treaty I hope I understand correctly. I guess peace will never be an option when you look at it this way. Also good to know that a nations people are at fault for having stupid dictators. At least we get to choose our idiots:tup:

A rather staggering amount of proof exists of them breaking the treaty, given that the detonation of nuclear devices is not something you can hide, ditto with the launch of ICBM's.

Oh that and the fact that NK stuck it all over the TV as well.

No proof? The NK government provided every last bit of proof needed themselves.

I'm also not aware of the UN approving the invasion of any country for breaking the nuclear non-proliferation treaty? Could you let us know what country that was?

 

[VolkswagenX]

The ignorance in that post is astounding.

I would suggest comparing the amount of knowledge you possess against the knowledge base of those who are disagreeing with you before making any more asinine comments.

Lol.

Thanks for your reply.

A rather staggering amount of proof exists of them breaking the treaty, given that the detonation of nuclear devices is not something you can hide, ditto with the launch of ICBM's.

Oh that and the fact that NK stuck it all over the TV as well.

No proof? The NK government provided every last bit of proof needed themselves.

I'm also not aware of the UN approving the invasion of any country for breaking the nuclear non-proliferation treaty? Could you let us know what country that was?

I should have mentioned that I was not talking about NK. Was more thinking about Iraq ( never found them) and the sanctions on Iran at the moment. Sorry for not being more clear on that.

 

[Scaff]

Thanks for your reply.



I should have mentioned that I was not talking about NK. Was more thinking about Iraq ( never found them) and the sanctions on Iran at the moment. Sorry for not being more clear on that.

Never found what in Iraq?
Nuclear weapons? No one claimed they had them in the first place.
Chemical and Biological? - Numerous sites and items have been found since the invasion (Wiki leaks has posted thousands of documents that clearly show this).

Iran - Sanctions in place at the moment relate to the regime not allowing UN inspectors to check facilities that they claim are for non weapons related purposes but oddly don't want anyone to look at.

So out of interest what would you do with the likes of Iran and NK? Do you believe they would be OK with a nuclear weapon that could be delivered? If not then exactly what would you suggest, given that asking them nicely has had utterly no effect at all?

 

[Famine]

Thats perfect! We can commit war crimes because we did not sign the treaty and we can invade every country that did sign the treaty even when we don't have proof of them violating the treaty I hope I understand correctly.

It doesn't look like you did.

The nuclear non-proliferation treaty is, rather simply, what it sounds like. It's an agreement between all signatory nations to not develop nuclear weapons if they are non-nuclear nations, to reduce existing nuclear stockpiles and to peacefully use nuclear power.

Israel, Pakistan and India did not sign. They are thus not bound to the agreement. South Sudan didn't exist at the time and are also non-signatory. Taiwan didn't sign, but abides by it. North Korea did and chose to withdraw (illegally) to develop nuclear weapons (illegally).

You may have noticed they blew a few up recently. That's quite evidential. They've also publicly announced they're reopening a nuclear fuel enrichment facility to make more plutonium for nuclear weapons. That's quite evidential too. They have broken the terms of the treaty they signed and are in violation of it. The sanctions imposed are a result of that.


This has nothing whatsoever to do with war crimes or invasions. No nation may commit war crimes under the Geneva Convention - which is a different piece of paper - so I have no real clue where you're going with this.

I guess peace will never be an option when you look at it this way.

I have no idea what way you're looking at it, but it doesn't seem to be the right one. The NNPT only requires signatory nations to abide by it and the UN imposes sanctions on nations that violate it. It has nothing to do with peace, war or invasions.

Also good to know that a nations people are at fault for having stupid dictators. At least we get to choose our idiots

For the large part, we get the illusion of choosing our idiots.

The Arab Spring shows what happens when people get sick enough of their dictators.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Never found what in Iraq?
Nuclear weapons? No one claimed they had them in the first place.
Chemical and Biological? - Numerous sites and items have been found since the invasion (Wiki leaks has posted thousands of documents that clearly show this).

Iran - Sanctions in place at the moment relate to the regime not allowing UN inspectors to check facilities that they claim are for non weapons related purposes but oddly don't want anyone to look at.

So out of interest what would you do with the likes of Iran and NK? Do you believe they would be OK with a nuclear weapon that could be delivered? If not then exactly what would you suggest, given that asking them nicely has had utterly no effect at all?

Iran is allowing UN inspectors. More than any other nation. When is it enough? The UN has outrages demands for Iran and it doesn't mather how much Iran coöperates, the west will never be satisfied. Its like a backwards justice system. It's up to the UN to prove that Iran is guilty of what they are acusing them of and not the other way around. It is unfair. Iran is not making a bomb and there is no proof that they are.

I will get back on Iraq later because I'm of to the gym and will be having drinks with friends after that. Good bye.

 

[Scaff]

Iran is allowing UN inspectors. More than any other nation. When is it enough? The UN has outrages demands for Iran and it doesn't mather how much Iran coöperates, the west will never be satisfied. Its like a backwards justice system. It's up to the UN to prove that Iran is guilty of what they are acusing them of and not the other way around. It is unfair. Iran is not making a bomb and there is no proof that they are.

I will get back on Iraq later because I'm of to the gym and will be having drinks with friends after that. Good bye.

What Iran is asked to do in terms of meeting its requirements under the IAEA is no more or less than any other country that is signed up, and simply put its not meeting the same standards as other countries.

Letting inspectors in the country is pointless if you then refuse to allow them access and provide information that they have requested, which is exactly what Iran does.....

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2013/gov2013-6.pdf

...also as a signatory it is bound by that agreement to provide the IAEA with access and information (as is every country that sings - the difference is that they do and Iran doesn't). Nothing 'backwards exists at all - only Iran's refusal to provide access and information.

I also notice you didn't both with answering any of this:

So out of interest what would you do with the likes of Iran and NK? Do you believe they would be OK with a nuclear weapon that could be delivered? If not then exactly what would you suggest, given that asking them nicely has had utterly no effect at all?

 

[Slash]

 

[Dotini]

So out of interest what would you do with the likes of Iran and NK? Do you believe they would be OK with a nuclear weapon that could be delivered? If not then exactly what would you suggest, given that asking them nicely has had utterly no effect at all?

This is what we used to call the $64,000 question.

That we have to be making this horrible choice is really the inevitable outcome of technology (in this case nuclear,) proliferated democratically into everybody's hands. Nuclear weaponry is not a good healthy fit with humanity, and we'd have been better off without it. But there's no going back.

If we are serious about keeping this tech out of the hands of Iran and North Korea, we don't seem to show it. What would Sun Tzu, Machiavelli or Clauzewitz do in this situation? Are we ready to touch off an even bigger war while must borrow to fund the current ones? What is the wisest course?


Respectfully,
Steve

 

[sumbrownkid]

Very appropriate and relative to the topic.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

A rather staggering amount of proof exists of them breaking the treaty, given that the detonation of nuclear devices is not something you can hide, ditto with the launch of ICBM's.

Oh that and the fact that NK stuck it all over the TV as well.

No proof? The NK government provided every last bit of proof needed themselves.

I'm also not aware of the UN approving the invasion of any country for breaking the nuclear non-proliferation treaty? Could you let us know what country that was?

Good comment. Also @ MK I don't think you should worry, all we are doing is muscle flexing, we're not Israel and doing covert attacks on known or secret nuclear sites, nor killing civilian workers producing such items. NK needs to realize in the grand scheme of things that they coexist with other nations in one world, and acting out against other nations, while putting nations around them in peril, isn't the correct way to start or go about a political discourse.

Also can you show me the documents that tell we found WMDs, also it was said that Iraq had purchased Yellow Cake material prior to us invading thus being used to prove that they had weapons of mass destruction or were gearing up, and had to be stopped due to the fact that they were aiding terrorist and illegaly enriching for devices. Also it is also evident through Desert Fox that we were trying to prevent Nuclear weapons, chemical and biological...along with the guise to weaken Saddam's power over Iraq. Also Bush's aides are quoted saying that Iraq was on the table for attack when he was elected in 2000 and even planned to attack them as a result of 9/11. But we know that it was learned that Al-Qaeda was apperently the culprit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries#Abbreviated_timetable

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/13/oneill.bush/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/september11/main520830.shtml

Operation Desert Badger was a U.S. plan for response if a pilot was shot down while patrolling the Iraqi no-fly zones. It was designed to disrupt the Iraqis' ability to capture the pilot by attacking Saddam's command and control centres in downtown Baghdad. It included an escalating attack if a U.S. pilot were captured. This attack, would allow for the President of the United States to order a small attack within four hours—either with U.S. aircraft or some fifty Tomahawk cruise missiles from Navy ships in the Persian Gulf.

^ another clever way for us to go to war with them

Also I find it weird that documents prove wmds from wikileaks a source usually known for proving the claims of the Bush admin for Iraq and Afghanistan wrong as well as the Obama admin. Hence why I'd love to see them and archive them for future ref.

Main point I'm making is this, there were many claims of why we should go to war with Iraq, and none that I can think of have been concretely proven. I can understand why people might fear going to war or having to face NK or even see this as a knee jerk reaction to the drum beats of some loser dictator. But those people must look at the reverse too, and see that he has never held office before and is probably not the best person to be a political figure head on the premier stage. Thus fear of what he may do or accidently do is warranted and being watchful is needed. Also with knowledge that the U.S. wanted to go to war with Iraq before the WMD stories, it become hard to believe them after pushing for such an invasion before the actual invasion. As well as the story changing so many times (once again). Well I linked documents to show what I'm talking about as far as claims or accounts of when the U.S. wanted to go to war with Iraq (a timeline of sorts) as well as claims that were unfounded to support going to Iraq and the WMD theory that wasn't real.

Anyways back to NK!

 

[Famine]

I will get back on Iraq later because I'm of to the gym and will be having drinks with friends after that. Good bye.

Three things North Koreans aren't permitted to have in one sentence.

Typed on the internet, which is a fourth.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

Or possibly typed on the internet via a smart phone, which would be five.

 

[Motorcycle54]

Or possibly typed on the internet via a smart phone, which would be five.

The USA has left a swath in its path, and its not all good (a US general was asked during WWII if the fire bombing of Japan would ensure victory and he replied, "it had better!, or we'll all be hanged as war criminals.") But George Washington declined to be made king when that position was offered to him, and thats pretty much set the tone since then. And for every covert CIA backed overthrow of a third world government we also have our response to Haitian earthquake victims, or the billions spent on humanitarian aid in general.

North Korea is not an innocently quirky country whom the UN has chosen to stomp on with sanctions. Its a dangerous throwback; its a political 8-track tape in a world of mostly compact disks. The US, amoung others, has vowed NOT to allow/accept North Korea or Iran as nuclear powers and thats the way its going to be! Whether this comes to a head now, or next week, or in 6 months- the die has been cast. North Korea and Iran will never be allowed/accepted as a nuclear powers and thats that. Kim can huff and puff all he wants.. theres no way he blows the house down.

 

[Matty]

You do realize, though, that North Korea has only been around for three generations, right?

Say your an 8 year old in North Korea in 1955, you become an enemy of state and all your family are put in concentration camps.

You, your parents and your grandparents. (3 generations)

You meet somebody in '66 in the concentration camp, you have children. (4th generation)

20 years later you become a grandparent. (1986) (5th generation)

20 years later you become a great grandparent (2006) at child stays in concentration camp until old enough to leave and live on there own. (6th generation)

So I said 7 when it was 6 sorry, my bad.

 

[Scaff]

Say your an 8 year old in North Korea in 1955, you become an enemy of state and all your family are put in concentration camps.

You, your parents and your grandparents. (3 generations)

You meet somebody in '66 in the concentration camp, you have children. (4th generation)

20 years later you become a grandparent. (1986) (5th generation)

20 years later you become a great grandparent (2006) at child stays in concentration camp until old enough to leave and live on there own. (6th generation)

So I said 7 when it was 6 sorry, my bad.

Can I ask if you are able to provide a source for this 6 generations in a labour camp situation.

 

[VolkswagenX]

good comment. Also @ mk i don't think you should worry, all we are doing is muscle flexing, we're not israel and doing covert attacks on known or secret nuclear sites, nor killing civilian workers producing such items.

Good post, thanks for that!

Three things North Koreans aren't permitted to have in one sentence.

Typed on the internet, which is a fourth.

What? What is your point? I feel stupid now... Here I was thinking you had some knowledge on NK but this proves you know only the one sided western view. Not that it mathers in this thread! But NK are permitted to have all the things you just mentioned.

What Iran is asked to do in terms of meeting its requirements under the IAEA is no more or less than any other country that is signed up, and simply put its not meeting the same standards as other countries.

Letting inspectors in the country is pointless if you then refuse to allow them access and provide information that they have requested, which is exactly what Iran does.....

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2013/gov2013-6.pdf

...also as a signatory it is bound by that agreement to provide the IAEA with access and information (as is every country that sings - the difference is that they do and Iran doesn't). Nothing 'backwards exists at all - only Iran's refusal to provide access and information.

I also notice you didn't both with answering any of this:

So out of interest what would you do with the likes of Iran and NK? Do you believe they would be OK with a nuclear weapon that could be delivered? If not then exactly what would you suggest, given that asking them nicely has had utterly no effect at all?

Thanks for showing that biased political document. What is your point? Iran has had more inspections by the IAEA then any other nation in the world. The IAEA has camera's filming in Iranian reactors 24/7. Iran has allowed the IAEA to do multiple announced and unannounced inspections and they (the IAEA) have taken hundreds of pictures of the inspected locations and found now solid evidence that Iran is enriching weaponized uranium. The IAEA does not bypass international law. Some places are just off limits for everyone unless there is reasonable evidence that the Iranians are producing weaponized uranium in those locations.

What would I do with the likes of Iran and NK? How about having negotiations on equal terms? You think NK threatens us because they are just crazy? Because thats what I get from watching our "free" news networks. It's funny how the western world can threaten sovereign nations on a daily basis while our free people are going crazy over Kim K's newest outfit but when NK decides it's enough everybody goes all crazy and we start dehumanizing them. The NK reacts that way because they feel threatened and a unified Korea would not be good for the western economy.

About Iran,
It poses no threat to the western world and has nothing to gain by making threats. The only threat they pose is an econamic threat. Everybody seems to forget the fact the this whole thing started when Iran decided they wanted to trade their oil in Euro's insted of dollars and that is the real threat (for the US) . How many wars was Iran part of compared to the US?

Iran using nuclear energie for peacefull purposes is a threat the the western world because it means that they would need less oil to power up the energy plants and can then sell that oil on the (not so) free market.

 

[Azuremen]

I'd really like to know where you were educated to have these views, or what you've read that has lead you to these conclusions. How is Iran not a threat when they have a navy and like to play posturing games? How are weapons not a threat?

Have you ever read any of the stories of those that have fled North Korea? The nations priorities are insanely backwards because it is just a dictatorship that. You are suggesting that every nation in the "western" world (which includes Japan and much of Asia) is in some sort of conspiracy against North Korea. But to what purpose?

Also, can you pass the Kool-Aid?

 

[VolkswagenX]

I'd really like to know where you were educated to have these views, or what you've read that has lead you to these conclusions. How is Iran not a threat when they have a navy and like to play posturing games? How are weapons not a threat?

Have you ever read any of the stories of those that have fled North Korea? The nations priorities are insanely backwards because it is just a dictatorship that. You are suggesting that every nation in the "western" world (which includes Japan and much of Asia) is in some sort of conspiracy against North Korea. But to what purpose?

Also, can you pass the Kool-Aid?

Thanks for attacks and putting words in my mouth

* A nation having a navy means you should be scared
* A nation playing posturing games means you should be scared
* A nation having weapons means you should be scared

Oh my god! You scared me... Good job boggie man the world is an unsafe place to live in because apparently 90 procent of the world is a threat! I never suggesting what you said so stop it and keep your Kool-aid because I don't drink that stuff. I am not for a dictatorship (or any form of government) and I do know about the people that fled NK. Guess what? Many people move out of my (not so) free country because they are sick of what happens here in the western world. What is your point?

 

[Azuremen]

Did you just compare people fleeing/escaping North Korea to what I will assume is freely leaving your country? What is your country, since you feel this is a valid comparison?

And the only thing I said that could pass as an attack was my comment on Kool Aid. The question on your education and sources was actually serious, since your opinion differs wildly from virtually everyone else's. More so when you just repeat how we are all wrong and imply how we've just been brainwashed by our "free" media.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Did you just compare people fleeing/escaping North Korea to what I will assume is freely leaving your country? What is your country, since you feel this is a valid comparison?

And the only thing I said that could pass as an attack was my comment on Kool Aid. The question on your education and sources was actually serious, since your opinion differs wildly from virtually everyone else's. More so when you just repeat how we are all wrong and imply how we've just been brainwashed by our "free" media.

Did I say that people fled my country? My stance on this issue has nothing to do with my education and I never said you are brainwashed! Stop putting words in my mouth:tup:

 

[gokartman78]

I am not for a dictatorship (or any from of government) and I do know about the people that fled NK. Guess what? Many people move out of my (not so) free country because they are sick of what happens here in the western world. What is your point?

Did I say that people fled my country? My stance on this issue has nothing to do with my education and I never said you are brainwashed! Stop putting words in my mouth:tup:

Not said, but implied they were leaving because they didn't like what was happening in the 'free' western world...

 

[xXKingJoshXx]

Can I ask if you are able to provide a source for this 6 generations in a labour camp situation.

It was hypothetical.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Not said, but implied they were leaving because they didn't like what was happening in the 'free' western world...

I implied wow thanks 👍 Again, don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Famine]

What? What is your point? I feel stupid now... Here I was thinking you had some knowledge on NK but this proves you know only the one sided western view. Not that it mathers in this thread! But NK are permitted to have all the things you just mentioned.

Oh really?

Please furnish us with the addresses of the North Korean gyms, bars and internet cafes. I'll help you out on the last one - there aren't any. More than that there's no domestic internet of any kind - you can only access the internet from a very small handful of government buildings and it's only available to a small number of government and party officials.

There's a domestic intranet, called Kwangmyong, but it has no direct link to the outside world. Only information approved by DPRK ends up on Kwangmyong.


I hope you said "Thank you great leader" after your drinks.

 

[Azuremen]

Did I say that people fled my country? My stance on this issue has nothing to do with my education and I never said you are brainwashed! Stop putting words in my mouth:tup:

I never said you were saying people fled your country. What I asked was if you compared people fleeing North Korea to people leaving your country?

Stop dodging questions by playing the victim.

 

[VolkswagenX]

I never said you were saying people fled your country. What I asked was if you compared people fleeing North Korea to people leaving your country?

Stop dodging questions by playing the victim.

Now I'm dodging questions. Are we done?

Oh really?

Please furnish us with the addresses of the North Korean gyms, bars and internet cafes. I'll help you out on the last one - there aren't any. More than that there's no domestic internet of any kind - you can only access the internet from a very small handful of government buildings and it's only available to a small number of government and party officials.

There's a domestic intranet, called Kwangmyong, but it has no direct link to the outside world. Only information approved by DPRK ends up on Kwangmyong.


I hope you said "Thank you great leader" after your drinks.

Lol again, what is your point? I answered your question and you deny. Fine! What does me going to the gym, having drinks with my friends and making use of the internet have anything to do with all of what I said before that? Get it? NK is not as technologicaly advanced as the western world but it's not as backwards as you make it out to be, but still what does this have to do with the subject we were discussing?

Iran is allowing UN inspectors. More than any other nation. When is it enough? The UN has outrages demands for Iran and it doesn't mather how much Iran coöperates, the west will never be satisfied. Its like a backwards justice system. It's up to the UN to prove that Iran is guilty of what they are acusing them of and not the other way around. It is unfair. Iran is not making a bomb and there is no proof that they are.

I will get back on Iraq later because I'm of to the gym and will be having drinks with friends after that. Good bye.

Do you like chocholate?

 

[Matty]

Can I ask if you are able to provide a source for this 6 generations in a labour camp situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRTjHJ93UYg

Here's the link I had, don't know where he found the links though.

 

[Motorcycle54]

I am not for a dictatorship (or any form of government)

I'm not pro NK nor am I anti

Its easy to seem smart from the cheap seats.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Its easy to seem smart from the cheap seats.

👍