North Korea, Sanctions, and Kim Jong-un
- Thread starter terminator363
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- Hammerhead Garage
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- Hammerhead Garage
They're indocrinated to believe that they live in paradise, to believe that the outside world is corrupt, to believe that the West would like nothing more than to turn them away from the enlightenment that they enjoy and convert them to join the decadent masses.
Yes, it sounds extreme. It is extreme. This isn't something that is passively happening in the background; North Koreans are taught this from birth, and it is the only thing that they are taught. It's called a cult of personality (which, ironically, was a concept first created by one of the most oppressive regimes of all time, the Soviet Union; it was first mentioned in On the Cult of Personality and its Consequences, Nikita Kruschev's "secret speech", in which he openly admitted that Josef Stalin - who, until then, had been considered a perfect ruler - been deeply flawed as a leader, straying too far from the ideals of Marxism-Leninism and resorting to brutal crackdowns of the citizens at the slightest provocation), and is embodied by the way the an individual uses mass media and propaganda to create a god-like image of themselves, which is then presented to the people as the only acceptable history. And (though this is not always the case in personality cults) anyone who dissents is swiftly and brutally punished. When the North Koreans find someone who dissents, their entire family is locked up and punished for one person's sins. For life. You don't want to know what happens there.
In North Korea, images of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il must be hung in every home and public building. Upon Kim Jong-il's death, citizens were issues wih lapel pins bearing these images, and to remove them was punishable by death. The Gregorian calendar was abandoned, repalced by the "juche calendar", which marked the year of Kim Il-sung's birth as "Year 1". Children are taught that Kim Jong-il was born on the slopes of Baekdu Mountain, the highest point in the country; that his birth was prophecised by a swallow; and that at the moment of his birth, a shooting star was seen, a double rainbow appeared in the sky and winter turned to spring. In reality, he was probably born in a military camp somewhere near Vyatskoye in the Russian Far East. The media also claims that, at the moment of his death, the thick sheets of ice atop Baekdu were cracked and a fierce snowstorm hit the area. And this goes on and on and on and on, even beyond what we are aware of, because it is notoriously difficult to get any genuine information about North Korea. For instance, nobody know the name of Kim Jong-un's wife. She uses the name Ri Sol-ju, but it is believed to be a pseudonym. Nor do we know the year of her birth; the best anyone can do is "January 1985–1988".
To our minds, it's difficult to comprehend the state of living in North Korea, or why the people accept it so willingly. They believe they are living in paradise. We know that they are starving, living in constant fear of torture and reprisals, and that North Korea sounds like the most miserable place on earth. The people of North Korea aren't suspicious of why they don't have an internet connection, because a) being suspicious would likely get them and their families sent to the sphincter of hell, b) they implicitly trust the government to decide what they should and should not have access to, and c) they probably aren't even aware of it. All of this is because one person in a position of authority has assumed absolute authority, and become the sole source of information for an entire nation. The Kims can tell their people anything they want, and the people will believe it.
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- SAVAGE_388_
It is hard to believe that they feel they are living in paradise what with the starving people killing their children to commit cannibalism. It's hard to gauge really because of proper research having no access to them. The regime is possibly the most brutal in history and I honestly can't think they believe they have good lives, not having any government at all would be a improvement.
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- Hammerhead Garage
And the answer to that is simple: no, they do not.
As I just explained, the government has full control over absolutely everything that everyone in the country has access to. And they always have - ever since the Korean Peninsula was split in two, the government has maintained total control. The people are told what to believe, and they believe it, because it pervades every aspect of their lives. They see no reason to believe anything other than what they are told to believe, and have plenty of reasons to know that questioning it will condemn them and their families to a lifetime of suffering to make their lives in "paradise" actually feel like paradise. It's brainwashing on a national scale, and now it is in its third generation.
When North Korea was struck by widespread famine in the 1990s, the government called it the "Arduous March", presenting it as a test of the nation's solidarity, and that only the truest believers in juche - the national philosophy of self-reliance - would survive, and become stronger for it. They likened it to a (apocryphal) story about a band of guerillas led by Kim Il-sung, whose struggles to repel Japanese invaders led to the formation of North Korea itself and made them national heroes. In reality, it was the result of a systemic economic and agricultural mismanagement by the government in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union, then their one and only trading partner at the time. It didn't help that widespread flooding decimated the area and that the North Korean Army got first priority for food rations.
Nicolae Ceausescu did the same thing in Romania. He believed that Romania should be an example among nations - prosperous and self-sustaining. So he encouraged Romanians to have large families whilst collecting absolutely everything that was harvested and selling it to clear the nation's national debt. The end result was a population explosion and widespread famine. There wasn't even enough food in the country to feed everyone before Ceausescu decided that families needed to have eight children, let alone once they started. Meanwhile, he was shown on national television standing in front of tables full of food and claiming that there was no problem. He also employed hundreds of people to paint all the leaves on trees green for whenever he made official state visits, so he was slightly mad. Nevertheless, it took a decade to undo the damage that Ceausescu did, and his citizens were hardly in his thrall - in 1989, they staged a revolution and deposed him and his wife. One could only imagine the sheer chaos that would grip the country if the Kims were pulled down (it would have to be by someone else, because they'd never do it themselves).
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- a6m5zero
Ah, yes, plenty of North Koreans do realize that it sucks there. 
North Korea is one of the hardest countries to escape or defect from, if not the hardest. Just by telling how hard the regime try to keep the people "in", I can't imagine how harsh the penalty might be for committing such serious crime.
Any country that have people absolutely risk their lives to defect from, you better believe that they have an idea of how bad their lives might be.
North Korea is one of the hardest countries to escape or defect from, if not the hardest. Just by telling how hard the regime try to keep the people "in", I can't imagine how harsh the penalty might be for committing such serious crime.
Any country that have people absolutely risk their lives to defect from, you better believe that they have an idea of how bad their lives might be.
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- Hammerhead Garage
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- a6m5zero
Anybody who opposed were taken out decades ago. That's where the "camps" came from. Political prisoners & their family, descendants. As for exactly how much of the population are aware, there is no way to know. Considering how many thousands have successfully defected(please take into account that most are too scared to run, or are caught), or also the fact that they've been hungry or starved, like since the creation of their country, chances are very good that most North Koreans realizes that their nations not really kicking butt. Also let's not forget about the propaganda being spread by the South Korea.
I firmly believe that big bad North Korean military is about scaring people inside their country, as much as out.
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- BasedAckbar
When the day comes when the North Korean government capitulates hopefully one day, how exactly do we go about bringing the newly freed populace up to speed with the rest of the world? Because it's very hard to break indoctrination/brainwashing.
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- a6m5zero
I worry more about the economic impact/strain the reunification will have on South Korea. Whatever social adjustments the North Korean people would be forced to make, it would be heavenly compared to the life they lead today.
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- Hammerhead Garage
How am I supposed to be able to do that, where there is no information available on how many people get caught trying to defect, and it's impossible to ask anyone in the country if they would like to defect, but are too scared to?
Did you see the footage of the crowds that lined the streets of Pyongyang when Kim Jong-il died? They were showing genuine distress at his death.
And the counter-propaganda spread by North Korea that demonises the South.
Have you got anything to base this belief on beyond the notion that "I wouldn't react like that if I was living there, so the people are obviously not as devout as they make out"?
I think you're fundamentally underestimating the power of a personality cult.
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- a6m5zero
You don't need numbers when they are operating huge camps for political prisoners.
Why do you think they have authorities capturing then killing & torturing such large numbers of political prisoners? I saw much overreaction, and if I were part of the regime, I'd have selected those who are loyal to the party, making sure that they were filmed to display what they staged to show the international community(total waste of time).
It's working real well, because they have the unbelievably tightly guarded borders and they are still trying to run away. And that's after regime thought they already imprisoned & killed off all those who were disloyal to the regime.
Aww, come on now. North Korea is ranked as one of the most brutal government ever because of the way they treat their own population. What do you think these people were doing when it was decided that they should be imprisoned into camps, tortured, or executed? Let me give you a hint, they weren't appraising Kim-whoever was in charge at the time.
ITCC_Andrew
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Wait, what?
You think that (asides from a guilty conscience,) there's any reason for the North Korean government to capitulate? You're more likely to see every other North Korean citizen dead, in a ditch, than see the government throw in the towel, and bring peace.
I heard that the North Koreans are scared, now, of what would happen if they seemed weak. China's government knows that it's about to hit the jackpot with U.S. investments and jobs etc.
The only reason Pyongyang still exists is a little tiny mistake by American troops...
Let's just say, American troops made it too far into North Korea, and scared China into sending troops to help the North Koreans.
Now, so far as I can tell, they see nuclear arms as the only way to keep the "UN invaders" out.
In fact, the whole war seemed like a huge mistake.
June 1950: USSR boycotts UN Security Council; accidentally loses vote to veto UN military involvement in Korean war.
October 1950: China (scared about UN being on their doorstep) sends troops to North Korea's defense, (following a few warnings directed to the US President.)
December 1950: UN pushed back, a lot. "They said we'd be home for Christmas" quote time.
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- Hammerhead Garage
Why do you assume that every single person in those camps is either an attempted defector, or one of their family members?You don't need numbers when they are operating huge camps for political prisoners.
Again, you completely fail to comprehend the power that the government has over the people. There weren't a handful of people selected to make a show for the cameras - everyone in the country was expected to visit Pyongyang and pay their respects by Kim's tomb.
Only a handful of people have actually slipped through, not the "thousands" that you make out.
They were doing something that the government did not like. For some reason, you seem to think that the only crime that gets North Koreans sent to the gulags is attempting to defect. But like I said earlier, upon Kim Jong-il's death, every single citizen of North Korea was given a lapel pin showing the faces of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il, and they were required to wear them at all times. The failure to do so was punishable by death by summary execution. Similarly, every citizen was banned from eating meat or drinking alcohol for fifty days after Kim Jong-il's death. When an army general broke this ban, he was executed, reportedly by mortar fire. If these are enough for people - even an army general, who has to be extraordinarily faithful to the Party to hold his position - to be given capital punishment, can you imagine what kind of slight transgressions they would have to commit to get sent to prison?North Korea is ranked as one of the most brutal government ever because of the way they treat their own population. What do you think these people were doing when it was decided that they should be imprisoned into camps, tortured, or executed? Let me give you a hint, they weren't appraising Kim-whoever was in charge at the time.
Your entire hypothesis that most North Korean citizens are aware of just how miserable their lives are and are doing everything they can to escape seems to be founded on the way you clearly cannot comprehend how they could accept their living conditions, because you would not.
arora
(Banned)
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I'm not sure what your definition is but I'm pretty sure there is something like 20,000 in China, another 25,000 in SK, maybe 10,000 in Russia, and then a handful here and there?
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- Hammerhead Garage
And over what time period did they leave the country? Was it sixty thousand people leaving in 2012, or sixty thousand people leaving between 1953 and 2012?
And even if it is sixty thousand refugees in one year, they represent just 0.24% of the population - North Korea has over twenty-four million citizens.
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- pdawg731
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- a6m5zero
Are you going to make a habit of putting opinions in my mouth? You did the same thing in the Guns thread, and just like that time, what you are claiming, it never even entered my head until just now.
I completely fail? Please explain how millions of North Koreans has been harassed, arrested, imprisoned, tortured, executed, or have fled the country? I guess this brainwashing works, except when it doesn't? Does the whole country genuinely feel loyalty to the regime, or is it because they are afraid of the regime that would execute their own army general by mortar fire?(heard this once somewhere....)
This reply is missing the point by a mile. You made a claim about the effectiveness of the North Korean propaganda. I said that North Koreans are still defecting to this day risking imprisonment, torture & execution, and also don't forget that this is after the regime already imprisoned & killed all the ones that they had found & captured. Just like the brainwashing, I guess the propaganda works, except when it doesn't.
Not in the thousands? It actually was, but that is beside the point.
Completely mistaken. Again. That thought has never entered my mind until you posted it.
So even when they commit very minor violation, they are getting beat up, raped, imprisoned or killed, North Korean brainwashing is so powerful, they would genuinely feel devastated & cry over the death of Kim Jong-il? When they are not getting arrested, tortured, killed, all that stuff over pin they forgot to wear or whatever, that is. Most impressive. Either that, or Koreans, who I consider to be highly intelligent people, they are mildly retarded suckers. Either way, a shocker.
Or that I actually read stories on the subject? How news do travel to North Korea via activist groups, or just general people though South Korea & China?
By "how they could accept their living conditions", do you mean that they are forced to accept, because the authorities will shoot them if they don't? You honestly think that North Korea take out the securities from DMZ, people of North Korea, because they have been so heavily brainwashed & are genuinely loyal to the regime, they would refuse to seek assistance from the South Korean side? No one threatening to shoot down their entire family, they would obey their leader and starve? Yeah, I don't think so.
arora
(Banned)
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I didn't find that all so interesting tbh but I clicked a few links from yours and found this. Something worth reading for anyone who can get past the title 👍
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/21/north-korea-similar-uk-defector-claims_n_2169768.html
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- Hammerhead Garage
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- a6m5zero
What does that have to do with what you quoted me saying? Anyway, just like in the Gun thread, you win again by just taking the position that you know, and I don't.
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- Hammerhead Garage
You're the one who attempted to characterise North Korea as a country full of people desperately trying to escape, and that the army was being used to keep them in their homes, which is untrue. You're the one who claimed that they thousands of mourners lining the streets of Pyongyang at Kim Jong-il's funeral had been hand-picked and were making a show for the cameras. You're the one who has ignored anything and everything to do with the Kims' cult of personality.
Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that you cannot comprehend how North Koreans could admire the Kims so fervently, and so therefore it must not be true.
Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that you cannot comprehend how North Koreans could admire the Kims so fervently, and so therefore it must not be true.
arora
(Banned)
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Ignoring things like the three generation rule, prison camps, songbun, security agencies etc. is not such a good idea if you want to learn why/how things are the way they are there.
Lots of stuff like this is available
Unfortunately only when the regime is doing silly things with weapons or dying or getting married, does anyone show any interest in NK.
Lots of stuff like this is available
Unfortunately only when the regime is doing silly things with weapons or dying or getting married, does anyone show any interest in NK.
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- a6m5zero
Yeah, they choose to starve to death than be disloyal to their beloved leader. I get it.
I said I would stage it, and yes, I'd use my power to make sure this historical footage doesn't have people holding signs & banners criticizing Kim Jong-il or the regime. Yes, most definitely.
Not ignored. I made the claim of how powerful North Korean authorities are, and how fearful that people are of them. I also made the claim that without this backing, North Korean people wouldn't be so loyal to the regime. This is where you started going on about how I was clueless.
You are making a habit of it now.
It has very little to do with my comprehension issues. If it was admiration keeping the people of North Korea in line, they would not need all the military, secret police, camps, etc., etc. to keeping their citizens in line.
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