opinions on the use of 4X4 or SUV's in GT5 prologue or GT5

[analog]

And don't forget Lamborghini's LM002, you're right and the argument that they would only make sense if off road tracks were to be included is also dated since PD has the WRC license.

Now we will probably see endless posts after this with people pronouncing their opinions, including pictures proofing their point, without consideration of the diverse and wide audience GT and all the different preferences it attracted from the start.

Years ago i read an interview with Kaz where he explained one of the main reasons he created the first GT was that every other driving game included racecars/ exotics only.
He wanted people to be able to also experience the humdrum cars in-game.
And since a significant number of people today drive SUV's as everyday cars unlike, say, supercars only supports the argument for inclusion.
It's not like they will destroy the soul of GT, GT was created to be diverse and offer a unique experience apart from anything else.

 

[Stevisiov]

4x4's certianly have a place in GT5, perhaps not a central roll, but its hard to argue that 4x4 don't contribute to a large number of vehicles on the road. They also appear in motorsport to those seem to assume they don't. Most notably the Dakar rally. I wouldn't mind to see a small collection of SUV's and Dakar machines in GT5.

 

[analog]

4x4's certianly have a place in GT5, perhaps not a central roll, but its hard to argue that 4x4 don't contribute to a large number of vehicles on the road. They also appear in motorsport to those seem to assume they don't. Most notably the Dakar rally. I wouldn't mind to see a small collection of SUV's and Dakar machines in GT5.

Oh, please don't start the whole motorsport debate again.....

Even if certain cars have no motorsport pedigree doesn't mean and never has meant they would therefor be excluded from GT.
As i and others mentioned in the previous posts, and you also mentioned it, the main arguments for inclusion is they are now commonplace, like it or not, they might be fun for a lot of people, like it or not and GT is a lot of things to a lot of people, like it or not.

By the way, i would also like Dakar rally cars/ trucks/etc. and i would also like a lot of pedigree racing cars/ supercars/ hypercars, etc.,etc.

And don't worry; they will all be included as GT caters for a wide audience of millions who don't all care if something doesn't lap the Nurburgring in less than 10 minutes .

 

[Snaeper]

My whole argument is that only the high-performance SUV's should be put in the game. For the same reason you only see the Si/Type-R/etc. Honda's. Other SUV's that I would include (if I were in charge) would be the Hybrids and Concepts. I personally wouldn't like to drive a Jeep Wrangler, but I'd love to drive that Jeep Hurricane Concept from a few years ago.

Regular plebian SUV's don't deserve a place in my eyes, just like a lot of regular plebian cars that get excluded. I just don't get excited to see a Chevy Tahoe... I see them all the time so it's not like I'd jump at the chance to drive one.

However, I will say that I'd love to drive a Ford Kuga, as well as the a Ford Territory Turbo. I will note that those are both very car-like and performance oriented SUV's though.. so it's hard to say if Europeans and Japanese (among others) would feel the same for the Tahoe.

 

[raceur]

4X4s will be fun on the track for many people. So they should be in. If you don't like them, don't drive them.

Also, a major attraction for many is the ability to drive their real-life car on the track. Hence a wide range of vehicles is a great idea.

 

[Exorcet]

I think this argument is a little silly outside of personal preference. A race needs rules to foster competition (ie, having an F1 car vs a delivery truck would not be exciting). As long as two+ vehicles are close in performance, you can race them. An SUV race with redneck (not saying pick up drivers are rednecks) drivers is as legit as an F1 race with Schumacher clone drivers. It all depends on what you want to do.

 

[analog]

And you prove my point by saying some cars should be in/ excluded, it's not about what should but what could....see the difference?
Thing is, we could argue forever but we don't have any say about the sort of cars that will be included so i only suggested we all keep an open mind, because some cars may be rubbish to some but get other people excited.

Your point about the Honda's being only available as the sportier versions doesn't make any sense i'm sorry to say, since a lot of Honda's in previous GT incarnations were also available in the more pedestrian versions.

I agree personally with you on the Jeep Wrangler and knowing the previous line-ups in GT i think we will probably never see it appear, i hate that car but i won't say it shouldn't be included because someone else might love it and even if it was included, i myself would probably also give it a go in GT.

The other SUV's you mentioned also don't get me excited, but that's not relevant, you might like to do some research on European SUV's though ( the high performance versions of those might change your opinion ),
there are some examples, many already mentioned before, i wouldn't ever be seen driving IRL but would love to have a go in within the context of GT.

Even slow cars can be entertaining to drive for other reasons than speed.

 

[Snaeper]

I know of the high performance SUV's of Europe. My previous posts all indicate that if there are any SUV's we should expect, it should be those. I refer to the Kuga and Territory Turbo because those vehicles do not exist in the U.S. in any variation, whereas the Cayenne, Audi Q7 (sans V12 TDI sadly) and BMW XxM's are all sold here.

I'm strongly against this thread and it's topic not because of the topic, but because the excitement and expectations it might create. Will everyone expect SUV's in the game from this thread? No... but people will surprise you and I feel topics like this will only get people's hopes up and dreaming only to come crashing back down to reality.

And yeah, Jeep's don't really excite me, especially with so many people making the "GT5 is GOD Simulator, if it doesn't simulate the driver going to the bathroom before he races, it has failed!" Simulator does not, to me, indicate Jeeps racing alongside each other. Allow me to note though! That I'm not a fan of that argument... hmm.. maybe I'm liking SUV's in GT5 more and more.... throw their presence in the faces of all the "Strict-Sim-Racer" argument fans.

 

[Famine]

Judging by the forum rules you better stop people typing PD or KY in reference to game developers or companies as these are not correct English and may cause confusion to new members or to people who are unfamiliar with the company or developer. Rules are rules after all.

Someone who has already attracted the attention of the moderating staff should concentrate on improving the quality and relevance of their own posts before being sarcastic and concerned about that of other people.

 

[analog]

Expecting SUV's to be included purely based on a thread discussing the pro or cons and getting excited about something (car list )which for the largest part isn't even confirmed yet is a bit short-sighted, you will probably agree.
I don't think most people view every proposal/ possibility launched on this site and automatically expect it to be included.

It is mainly an outlet for some people to either speculate or wish for, or arguing why something could or couldn't in their view be included in GT.
I was not trying to change your opinion no matter what.
You are fully intitled to try to persuade me by arguments, just as i am and tried to do by suggesting those European SUV's ( oh, that Kuga isn't very exciting in my personal view ).

I only suggested this debate to become more diverse in its arguments because some arguments were becoming tiresome by constantly repeating the same views, and pointing out some were irrelevant in the first place within the context of what makes GT what it is and always has been.

As for getting our expectations up and getting thrown back into the harsh reality, that is something best left to PD itself at the moment.

 

[NoQuarter]

Wow...Ten pages of some salient arguments and discussions, weiny whining about people's opinions, ad hominem attacks, and hair splitting about the site rules.

I see that in my 2 (or is it 3?) year absence, not too many things have changed.

Back OT; KY has stated many times over the years of this franchise that he sees GT as more than just a "game" or "driving simulator", but more of a complete automotive experience for the PS console. Most of you who have been engaged in this series and have been members of this and all the other GT communities have seen those quotes. For those people relatively knew to the world of Gran Turismo (Welcome, by the way ), you can search and find these statements yourself, some of them quoted here on GTP, and the rest elsewhere.

Should SUVs and Trucks be "in the game"?

Sure! Why not? I won't reiterate all the statements by proponents of this from this read; there is no need to be redundant.

If you don't like trucks and SUV's when the game is released, guess what?

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THEM!

Or even look at them.

Personally, I like trucks and SUV's and will no doubt buy and try a few; after all, as KY has said, it's all about the automotive experience.

 

[analog]

That whole 10 page or so arguing is why i tried to change the sort of arguments used to be more original and less black or white.
Like you said it is an automotive experience whereby if you keep an open mind you might see shades of grey and be pleasantly surprised.

You could always make a choice to buy or not, at least be thankfull the choice is given in the first place.

Oh, that avatar you use, is it a rejected proposal for the Cayenne?

 

[NoQuarter]

...Oh, that avatar you use, is it a rejected proposal for the Cayenne?

Negative...just an image I found some time ago when the CGT first came out; I liked the analogy of the CGT rolling over the supercar genre

 

[niky]

I know of the high performance SUV's of Europe. My previous posts all indicate that if there are any SUV's we should expect, it should be those. I refer to the Kuga and Territory Turbo because those vehicles do not exist in the U.S. in any variation, whereas the Cayenne, Audi Q7 (sans V12 TDI sadly) and BMW XxM's are all sold here.

It's likely they'll include the Range Rover Spor (since we got the concept in GT4)t, one of the BMW X cars and possibly an Audi (can't recall if the Q7 concept was in GT4). The Cayenne? Unless there's a RUF version, no such luck. We won't know till we know. It's unlikely we'll get stuff like the Honda CR-V, Mazda CX-7 and similar vehicles, but it's always possible, since previous GTs have given us stuff like a four cylinder Honda Odyssey (a car with no "sporting" versions) and the Renault Avantime. The inclusion of unusual and interesting road cars in Gran Turismo are not often based on performance.

I'm strongly against this thread and it's topic not because of the topic, but because the excitement and expectations it might create. Will everyone expect SUV's in the game from this thread? No... but people will surprise you and I feel topics like this will only get people's hopes up and dreaming only to come crashing back down to reality.

Hopes for what? Just because someone creates a thread, doesn't make it so. And given that there were vans, pickups and SUVs in GT3 and GT4, chances that these won't be in GT5 are slim.

And yeah, Jeep's don't really excite me, especially with so many people making the "GT5 is GOD Simulator, if it doesn't simulate the driver going to the bathroom before he races, it has failed!" Simulator does not, to me, indicate Jeeps racing alongside each other. Allow me to note though! That I'm not a fan of that argument... hmm.. maybe I'm liking SUV's in GT5 more and more.... throw their presence in the faces of all the "Strict-Sim-Racer" argument fans.

Why would the presence of SUVs make GT5 any less of a sim? TOCA had Big rigs. Microsoft Flight Simulator had the Space Shuttle (which flies like a truck). A "simulator" is meant to simulate. If they put a tank or a fire-truck in GT, it would not be any more or any less of a simulator. And we did get one... the Jay Leno Tank Car is basically a tank engine on a fire-truck chassis.

As for "Racer"... we've alread got Daihatsu Midgets, Nissan Cubes, Toyota Priuses... none of which are even remotely racing cars... (again... less than 1/10th of the cars in GT4 are racing vehicles)... so the point is moot, anyway.

 

[analog]

Are we going to debate it all over again?

About the Cayenne, it is available as a Ruf version, and it is even uglier than the original in my personal view ( didn't think it was possible ).

I also don't know why the inclusion of certain vehicles should have anything to do with being a sim.

If all you wanted in GT is pure racing cars, then GT offers you the possibility to do so ( buy not buying anything else ).
It's like complaining your colour palet offers all the colours when you only wanted to use one or two.

Either leave the possibility open you might try the other colours one day or buy one colour only ( meaning a racing-car only sim ).

 

[Famine]

Microsoft Flight Simulator had the Space Shuttle (which flies like a truck).

That does a disservice to many trucks, which fly better.

The space shuttle orbiter has the same glide profile as the Hoover Dam.

 

[niky]

That does a disservice to many trucks, which fly better.

The space shuttle orbiter has the same glide profile as the Hoover Dam.

Given that the Hoover Dam is shaped like a parachute... the Shuttle might actually be worse.

 

[Dan_]

Well, after reading some pages of the thread I can't participate too deeply of the discussions, so here goes my two cents:

GT is all about cars, so the more cars we have the more GT we can play, right? I like 4x4, if we got a superb rally simulation they will be far more enjoyed, but it's also fun to take them to the track, they're powerful, heavy and tall cars ( assuming we're talking about SUVs and pick-up trucks), which completely changes the dynamics of your driving.

Where's my subaru forester from GT2? Bring it back! Also, f150, dodge ram and toyota tacoma were in GT4, driving pickup trucks from the cockpit view will be awesome, I'm going to get a Dodge Ram to the sunday cup to test how far the production car damage system goes, poor sunday cup cars, I will smash every fiat punto and mitsubishi mirage that dare to be in my way.

Looking forward to drive the X6M too, 4x4 rules!

Cheers,
Dan

 

[Snaeper]

It's likely they'll include the Range Rover Spor (since we got the concept in GT4)t, one of the BMW X cars and possibly an Audi (can't recall if the Q7 concept was in GT4). The Cayenne? Unless there's a RUF version, no such luck. We won't know till we know. It's unlikely we'll get stuff like the Honda CR-V, Mazda CX-7 and similar vehicles, but it's always possible, since previous GTs have given us stuff like a four cylinder Honda Odyssey (a car with no "sporting" versions) and the Renault Avantime. The inclusion of unusual and interesting road cars in Gran Turismo are not often based on performance.



Hopes for what? Just because someone creates a thread, doesn't make it so. And given that there were vans, pickups and SUVs in GT3 and GT4, chances that these won't be in GT5 are slim.



Why would the presence of SUVs make GT5 any less of a sim? TOCA had Big rigs. Microsoft Flight Simulator had the Space Shuttle (which flies like a truck). A "simulator" is meant to simulate. If they put a tank or a fire-truck in GT, it would not be any more or any less of a simulator. And we did get one... the Jay Leno Tank Car is basically a tank engine on a fire-truck chassis.

As for "Racer"... we've alread got Daihatsu Midgets, Nissan Cubes, Toyota Priuses... none of which are even remotely racing cars... (again... less than 1/10th of the cars in GT4 are racing vehicles)... so the point is moot, anyway.

Niky, I don't know if you noticed, but I really tried to stop arguing with you. Hence why I decided not to quote your last post before this. The reason is that I feel like you don't understand what it is that I'm saying, you then make an assumption and arguing on what you assume(Not saying you do, I just feel like you do, if I'm wrong please correct me). If I continue my argument then I'm only going to get stressed out and I more than likely wont like you anymore. And I try to be a positive person towards everyone (not so positive to people's arguments though). I feel like what could've been a constructive and stimulating argument with you ended up only stressing me out more because of what I assume to be a language barrier (being that you're from the Philippines). An example is below, I've edited the comment to more help you understand.

I'm strongly against this thread and it's topic not because of the topic, but because the excitement and expectations it might create. Will everyone expect SUV's in the game from this thread? No... but people will surprise you and I feel topics like this will only get people's hopes up and dreaming only to come crashing back down to reality.

I never said that this thread will make every single person in it hope that SUV's are in the game. But think about the human thought process, one minute they're pondering the appearance of SUV's, the next minute they could (not "will") be expecting the largest SUV library in a racing game ever. Again, not everyone will think this, but the possibility certainly exists. And if this thread exists purely on speculation and "what if's?" then I don't see the point in it. No evidence even suggests that Trucks and SUV's will make a return appearance from GT4. They could've put them in said "Hmmm you know what, I'm not really liking them being in the game" and we'd never see them again. The only evidence in favor of SUV's/4x4's being in the game is the category existing in the SEMA GT Awards.

Also, niky... I just never liked the way you argued. I felt like you never read anything I said, you even stated that you didn't know too much history on the Corvette, yet you argued about them anyways and you would mis-quote or mis-read what I said then base an entire argument around that. The whole situation was just frustrating for me.

I apologize for this being off topic and I would like to state clearly that I harbor no ill will to you niky, I'm just telling you that I haven't liked arguing with you over the last couple of days. If anything I've said is personally offensive to you I apologize as I did not mean for it to come off as that.

To the mods, I feel like this thread hasn't brought anything constructive in the past few pages. The only reason it's at 10 is because another thread (the one I originally commented in) was merged with it. I feel this topic will only continue to be redundant and speculative at best. It will more than likely not be constructive until SUV's are announced. Assuming they are, I feel that would be a topic in itself, thus deserving it's own thread.

 

[buickgnx88]

It would be nice to have them in the game, but we will probably only get a few. Of course, I really wish someone would come out with a game that was all about trucks and SUVs (similar to 4x4 Evo 1&2), which has both street versions and off road versions, and has both road races as well as off-road racing (once again, similar to 4x4 Evo).

 

[niky]

Niky, I don't know if you noticed, but I really tried to stop arguing with you. Hence why I decided not to quote your last post before this. The reason is that I feel like you don't understand what it is that I'm saying, you then make an assumption and arguing on what you assume(Not saying you do, I just feel like you do, if I'm wrong please correct me). If I continue my argument then I'm only going to get stressed out and I more than likely wont like you anymore. And I try to be a positive person towards everyone (not so positive to people's arguments though). I feel like what could've been a constructive and stimulating argument with you ended up only stressing me out more because of what I assume to be a language barrier (being that you're from the Philippines). An example is below, I've edited the comment to more help you understand.

I understand what you're saying. I felt no need to answer your other post. I answered this one stating what we could possibly expect from GT5 in terms of SUVs and 4x4s.

I never said that this thread will make every single person in it hope that SUV's are in the game. But think about the human thought process, one minute they're pondering the appearance of SUV's, the next minute they could (not "will") be expecting the largest SUV library in a racing game ever. Again, not everyone will think this, but the possibility certainly exists. And if this thread exists purely on speculation and "what if's?" then I don't see the point in it. No evidence even suggests that Trucks and SUV's will make a return appearance from GT4. They could've put them in said "Hmmm you know what, I'm not really liking them being in the game" and we'd never see them again. The only evidence in favor of SUV's/4x4's being in the game is the category existing in the SEMA GT Awards.

It's just a thread. It's just a forum. There's really no need to take it so seriously. Lighten up, man!

Also, niky... I just never liked the way you argued. I felt like you never read anything I said, you even stated that you didn't know too much history on the Corvette, yet you argued about them anyways and you would mis-quote or mis-read what I said then base an entire argument around that. The whole situation was just frustrating for me.

If I didn't read what you wrote, I wouldn't have answered. My whole point is that from an objective assessment, there's no reason... not "racing heritage", racing "intent", performance numbers (both in terms of handling and acceleration), nothing... that SUVs should not be in the game. Not even "non-sporting" SUVs. Sorry if we went off on a tangent there.

If you'd like to see more upsetting stuff about sports cars, you can read the "FWD Sportscar" thread elsewhere in the forum.

If we're arguing from a subjective standpoint, that they're not as much fun as the meat-and-potatoes of Gran Turismo, then you have a valid point. Which is why I've reiterated time and again that I won't debate that point, because while I don't fully agree, I can see your point.

I apologize for this being off topic and I would like to state clearly that I harbor no ill will to you niky, I'm just telling you that I haven't liked arguing with you over the last couple of days. If anything I've said is personally offensive to you I apologize as I did not mean for it to come off as that.

Apparently I've offended you... so I'd like to extend that apology myself. I know that debatists on this site may come across as combative and nitpicky to those who aren't used to the incredibly frustrating and stress-inducing "Opinions and Current Events" section... but it's something you get used to.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Personally i'd like to see many road legal offroad 4x4s.All L/Cs, Land Rover/Range Rover, Jeeps, Toyota Hilux ( pick ups & suvs ), Hummers ( or Humvees ), Lincoln, Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge, Dihatsu, Mitubishi, Nissan etc.Plus huge jungles/forests/snow filled trails.It's ace driving in puddles & sludge and after through deep rivers, with water upto the windows.Also rock crawling courses & events ( hopefully varied ).I hope KY can get a few seasons of Dakar rally racers for a future GT game.As i mentioned before, the Transafricaine Classic Rally would be great too.You can drive almost any modified vehicle in that, except m/bikes i think.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

What about including the Malaysian Rain Forest Challenge & the UK.XTC or known as eXtreme Time Challenge.

 

[fade]

No.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Why not, i think the RFC would be huge fun, especially in the rain.

 

[analog]

Personally i'd like to see many road legal offroad 4x4s.All L/Cs, Land Rover/Range Rover, Jeeps, Toyota Hilux ( pick ups & suvs ), Hummers ( or Humvees ), Lincoln, Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge, Dihatsu, Mitubishi, Nissan etc.Plus huge jungles/forests/snow filled trails.It's ace driving in puddles & sludge and after through deep rivers, with water upto the windows.Also rock crawling courses & events ( hopefully varied ).I hope KY can get a few seasons of Dakar rally racers for a future GT game.As i mentioned before, the Transafricaine Classic Rally would be great too.You can drive almost any modified vehicle in that, except m/bikes i think.

Well Smoke&Slide, to make clear where I stand on this subject I dug up one of my own posts I made on this reincarnated thread and found it still represents how I feel about it now and hopefully makes clear my previous objection how this debate was fought out, btw this is the first time I quote myself ( not making it a habit I promise ).

I don't see this debate going anywhere, since everybody who's either pro or con seems to have dug themselves deep inside their trenches.
I will try one last time by saying the arguments of persuasing either pro or con need to be more original than simply saying SUV's are not meant for racing and then counterarguing with proof of pictures that they do.
I think this whole argument is not about SUV's, it's either whether you, like me, prefer GT5 to be as diverse as possible including all sorts of vehicles you may like or not ( if not, others probably will ).
And the people who think GT should only include the cars they like, anything remotely different will only be filler taking precious space away.
Just to be sure, IRL I don't think I would ever consider a SUV, but in GT I would certainly try one, and whether or not a car is rubbish on/off track in GT is irrelevant, since GT allways included cars which were rubbish on/off track, remember the Jay Leno tank car, Model T, Daihatsu Midgets, etc., etc.?

Didn't meant they weren't fun in their own way/ context, and isn't fun the main reason for playing a game in the first place?

Just to be sure, I would welcome SUV's or 4x4's into GT5, especially Range Rovers, Mercedes G-class ( AMG-version ) BMW X5, Land Cruiser/Rover, hell even Hummer ( the original Humvee ) etc., etc., but most of all I would love to drive the Lamborghini LM002.
Some would probably make the most sense on an off-road track ( WRC-courses? ) but a lot will also be fun on normal tracks IMO.

 

[shirakawaa]

If kei cars and vans are in the game, I don't see why SUVs shouldn't.
Personally I would really want to see in the larger European turbo-diesel ones, though.
American ones would be interesting too but they mechanically have more in common with trucks than cars, at least compared to European models (even the largest ones).
And again, more diesels please.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

What about a Volvo Laplander Shirakawa ?.

http://www.volvoadventures.com/Laplander_C303spec.html

or a Mercedes Unimog, perhaps a fully modded L/C HJ61 & BJ43 with 12-HT engine.

 

[shirakawaa]

Clearly not an SUV.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Still the Volvo entered the RFC in 08.