pɐǝɹɥʇ lɐᴉɔᴉɟɟoun ǝɥʇ - ɐᴉlɐɹʇsn∀

[LeMansAid]

David Leyjonhelm has filed a formal complaint under Section 18C after a broadcaster called him an angry white male with no grasp of what he was doing by calling for the removal of 18C.

He said this about it....

I'm not looking for money or flowers or sympathy or an apology or anything like that. I'm seeking to make a point.

Precisely what I expected to find. Maybe not the most mature of stunts, but I really don't think it's difficult to see the true intent.

This is the same David Leyjonhelm who threatened to call the police on The Chaser after they repainted a Wicked camper van so that he was the subject of it and parked it outside their home - despite being an ardent defender of free speech, which meant that he should not have had a problem with it.

I'm not completely up on the ins and outs of the concept, but defending free speech and being offended by someone's application of it does not a hypocrite make. He is quoted as saying that he thought they were going to attempt to enter his property, and for that reason warned that he would call the police.

Of course, if Cory Bernardi is one of the supporters of your cause, you know you're screwed. This is the guy who was calling for generous public funding for the 'no' campaign in the same-sex marriage plebiscite, but not one red cent for the 'yes' campaign.

Not sure what you mean by "screwed". If you are suggesting that the validity of Leyonhjelm's argument is diminished by Bernardi's support, I would see that as you judging character over the issue itself. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that to be honest though. The issue is the issue, and for mature, considered minds, character associations will have no bearing.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm not completely up on the ins and outs of the concept, but defending free speech and being offended by someone's application of it does not a hypocrite make.

It does make you a hypocrite when you try and shut down free speech because you don't like it.

He is quoted as saying that he thought they were going to attempt to enter his property, and for that reason warned that he would call the police.

The actual stunt made it pretty clear that the people involved were not going to do any such thing. The entire point was to park the van outside his home and leave it there.

If you are suggesting that the validity of Leyonhjelm's argument is diminished by Bernardi's support, I would see that as you judging character over the issue itself.

Bernardi is viewed as one of the most dangerous politicians in the country. His support for issues is viewed as toxic; there have been several legitimate issues that he has thrown his support behind, which the rest of the political lobby has had to back down on simply because Bernardi's support made it impossible to sell to the rest of the country.

 

[LeMansAid]

It does make you a hypocrite when you try and shut down free speech because you don't like it.

Is that what happened? It makes a good gotcha story for sure, but there's a bit of stretching and contorting to be done to get it over the line.

The actual stunt made it pretty clear that the people involved were not going to do any such thing.

I doubt it was made clear by them, though I also would have doubts that he was justified in thinking that they would enter his property. So what though, really. A person that believes in unabridged free speech can still be irrationally upset without compromising their ongoing upholding of the right to free speech. It's maybe not a great advertisement for his views, but it's also not actually hypocritical. The Section 18C thing by contrast would have been hypocritical were it not for the blatant whimsy evident.

Thinking more though, maybe it is a good advertisement. Being upset by an expression of free speech, but not changing one's overall attitude in response, is not the worst thing to be showcasing as an example of how personal feelings shouldn't necessarily inform laws. So far he's not let his feelings override his logic in regards to such laws.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Is that what happened?

He was prepared to call the police from the minute they arrived, despite their repeated comments about using the van to start a discussion on free speech.

It's worth noting that Leyjonhelm had previously defended Wicked Camper Vans under the banner of free speech despite controversy over their use of sexualised and misogynistic graffiti as a business model. The Chaser simply adapted just such a van to be about Leyjonhelm.

It's maybe not a great advertisement for his views, but it's also not actually hypocritical.

It is when you're trying to shut someone down. Like I said, Leyjonhelm was ready to call the police the minute they arrived. He clearly knew that they were coming - The Chaser didn't cover up the van beforehand, so there were plenty of ways that he could be warned in advance.

 

[LeMansAid]

@prisonermonkeys I was talking tough, but I'm really not well versed in what the line between free speech and harassment is (and other "no go" zones). @mustafur, I get the sense that you may be more across this kind of thing? I think that Leyonhjelm may be incredibly valuable in challenging mindsets - it would be a damn shame if he indeed was not practicing what he preaches.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm really not well versed in what the line between free speech and harassment is (and other "no go" zones).

That's what Section 18C is intended to try and clarify. Probably the most notable case of a prosecution involving Section 18C was against Andrew Bolt, a right-wing commentator who made disparaging comments about indigenous Australians. But he was actually charged with libel because what he printed was demonstrated to be factually incorrect; Section 18C came into play because it amounted to harassment.

I think that Leyonhjelm may be incredibly valuable in challenging mindsets - it would be a damn shame if he indeed was not practicing what he preaches.

The Chaser do have a reputation for political stunts. Most of the time, it's harmless stuff, like sneaking toy boats into the immigration minister's campaign headquarters (despite his claims of having stopped the boats) or asking a politician a series of silly question (eg, "Minister, what is your favourite ABBA song?"). But sometimes, they really push the envelope in terms of acceptability.

This stunt was a response to Leyjonhelm's comments on Wicked Camper Vans. Wicked is a company who lease camper vans painted with graffiti, but they had been at the centre of some controversy because a lot of their vans were covered in some pretty lewd slogans (eg "inside every little princess there is a slut wanting to try it just once"). Domestic violence and violence against women have been pretty topical issues in Australia - particularly in light of the Jill Meagher, Allison Baden-Clay and Stephanie Smith cases - and so Wicked earned the ire of local councils who felt that their vans were in poor taste at best, borderline misogynistic at worst, and generally making light of a pretty sensitive issue.

Leyjonhelm defended Wicked, saying that they should be allowed to paint their vans however they liked because of free speech. So The Chaser re-painted a camper van, making the lewd comments to be about Leyjonhelm (eg "inside David Leyjonhelm there is a slut wanting to try it just once") and presented it to him, looking to see his reaction. Probably most significantly, the camper van was presented to him by two of The Chaser's female members, Kirsten Drysdale and Zoë Norton Lodge, who themselves had been critical of Wicked. The whole stunt was to point out Leyjonhelm's double standards, which is exactly what they did.

 

[mustafur]

As America wold call it, "Printing Freedom"

http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...s/news-story/c2fa2711ebf7b761e3e2f0802a80d1b2

In other news, Turnbull looks to be putting the republic agenda back on the table, it's safe to say alot has happened since 1999 and I have no doubt it would win easily today(it probably would of won 1999 if they didn't have a stupid undemocratic way of electing a president): http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...y/news-story/557949f6df17334b440604520865c955

 

[prisonermonkeys]

it probably would of won 1999 if they didn't have a stupid undemocratic way of electing a president

It was the brainchild of the staunch monarchists - led by Abbott - who only agreed to it because they knew that it would fail.

 

[Liquid]

Commonwealth of Australia is a good name and that should stay after the inevitable republic referendum. Republic of Australia sounds too, uh... predictable?

I just think that Commonwealth is a great title for an entity; this is reflected by Massechusetts, Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky which style themselves as Commonwealths and not States.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Commonwealth of Australia is a good name and that should stay after the inevitable republic referendum. Republic of Australia sounds too, uh... predictable?

I just think that Commonwealth is a great title for an entity; this is reflected by Massechusetts, Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky which style themselves as Commonwealths and not States.

Once Liz-2 shuffles orrf the mortal coil there'll be a new Head of Commonwealth, that's not guaranteed to be a Brit. I think at that point we'll start to see stronger pushes for change within some Commonwealth countries, Australia-land included.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Once Liz-2 shuffles orrf the mortal coil there'll be a new Head of Commonwealth, that's not guaranteed to be a Brit.

I head that the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas would make for a fine head of state.

Commonwealth of Australia is a good name and that should stay after the inevitable republic referendum. Republic of Australia sounds too, uh... predictable?

I wouldn't read too much into it myself. The Turnbull government is completely impotent; they can't do anything for fear up upsetting one faction of the Liberals or another, all of whom are holding the government hostage by threatening public disunity and dysfunction if Turnbull doesn't toe the faction line - the very things that the Liberals claim that they are trying to weed out.

 

[mustafur]

I wouldn't read too much into it myself. The Turnbull government is completely impotent; they can't do anything for fear up upsetting one faction of the Liberals or another, all of whom are holding the government hostage by threatening public disunity and dysfunction if Turnbull doesn't toe the faction line - the very things that the Liberals claim that they are trying to weed out.

Which makes me think how much Australias Policial issues would be solved if we had Primarys to vote on who can control said parties, right now the Parties have too much control over deposing leaders that don't tow the party line.

If Turnbull right now decided to say well im going to do this and not what your trying to push me into, he would be out within a week.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Which makes me think how much Australias Policial issues would be solved if we had Primarys to vote on who can control said parties, right now the Parties have too much control over deposing leaders that don't tow the party line.

I'm not sure how well that would work, simply because the party should have some say in who leads them. It would be far too easy for someone ill-suited to the job to win a primary and the party to be powerless to replace them despite it being the will of the people. The American Presidential primary system only works because the office of President is completely separate to the House of Representatives and Congress.

 

[Nexus]

http://www.itnews.com.au/news/nbn-c...type-of-fixed-connection-youre-getting-445488
http://www.itnews.com.au/news/nbn-tax-will-slug-consumers-with-higher-broadband-prices-444366
What a joke...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What a joke...

That's the NBN for you.

 

[Nexus]

That's the NBN for you.

While there may have been problems with the rollout of Labor's NBN, the plan itself was solid. The Liberal's NBN was a terrible idea from the start.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The Liberal's NBN was a terrible idea from the start.

And that's the Libs for you. Their assumption that the Labs' policies are the worst possible policies as a matter of course has led to them introducing some fairly terrible policies themselves.

 

[LeMansAid]

And that's the Libs for you. Their assumption that the Labs' policies are the worst possible policies as a matter of course has led to them introducing some fairly terrible policies themselves.

We've ended up with two parties that have become more and more similar, while being ever more focused on creating points of difference (or the perception of). Considering that many people incomprehensibly don't look to outside options to vote for, it's no wonder complete apathy if rife.

It's quite the dull but sinister magic trick.

 

[mustafur]

Indonesia is Butthurt over some Display When on a military training drill with Australian Troops and has suspended all Military relations with Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-...l-military-cooperation-with-australia/8161362

 

[TenEightyOne]

Indonesia is Butthurt over some Display When on a military training drill with Australian Troops and has suspended all Military relations with Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-...l-military-cooperation-with-australia/8161362

For some reason that article's omitted the detail that many other agencies did publish: https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-suspends-military-cooperation-with-australia

 

[Inferno251]

Why do we even bother to deal with Indonesians considering all the BS they come out with?

 

[Imari]

Why do we even bother to deal with Indonesians considering all the BS they come out with?

Don't go into politics.

 

[Inferno251]

Don't go into politics.

Fair enough :/

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Why do we even bother to deal with Indonesians considering all the BS they come out with?

Because they're a major trading partner and very influential in the Asia-Pacific region.

 

[mustafur]

Because they're a major trading partner and very influential in the Asia-Pacific region.

False, we don't trade with them anywhere near as much as you would think, not even in our Top 10.

I would rather Australia Tells them to get stuffed if it's over matters that clearly should be condemned, like those in West Papua.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Their Strong Nationalism has no intrest to us.

But it's totally okay if we have "strong nationalism" of our own, right?

I'm reminded of Abbott's criticism of the Rudd-Gillard government when they tried to co-operate with Indonesia on asylum seekers, saying that our national policy should not bow to Indonesia's interests. And then as soon as he got into power, he put in place a policy that demanded that Indonesia's national policy bowed to Australian interests.

The point is:

I would rather Australia Tells them to get stuffed if it's over matters that clearly should be condemned, like those in West Papua.

There is a time and a place for everything. This was neither the time nor the place.

 

[mustafur]

But it's totally okay if we have "strong nationalism" of our own, right?

Sure but its' nothing compared to what is in Pancasila

I'm reminded of Abbott's criticism of the Rudd-Gillard government when they tried to co-operate with Indonesia on asylum seekers, saying that our national policy should not bow to Indonesia's interests. And then as soon as he got into power, he put in place a policy that demanded that Indonesia's national policy bowed to Australian interests.

Good for him but what is your point?

The point is:


There is a time and a place for everything. This was neither the time nor the place.

You do know what it was over though, it was a display inside a Military training camp, they didn't exactly force it down anyone's throat, and being sensitive to rightful injustice for nationalist reasons is not a valid reason as far as im concerned.

 

[Barra333]

Why do we even bother to deal with Indonesians considering all the BS they come out with?

Geographic proximity plays a big part.

 

[Inferno251]

My quote was in relation to both current and past politics, the most notable instance being East Timor. The fact is that we are dealing with a neighbour with poor human rights and little regard to minorities, and no one cares (i.e. like our main trading partner...)

 

[Imari]

My quote was in relation to both current and past politics, the most notable instance being East Timor. The fact is that we are dealing with a neighbour with poor human rights and little regard to minorities, and no one cares (i.e. like our main trading partner...)

Not so different from Australia. In the very near past we had poor human rights and little regard for minorities. In some areas it's arguable that still exists.