Patch Release Notes and Discussion Thread

[Zakspeed_TV]

The truth. Or you think i made it up?



Concerning the above, I disagree, they are perfectly ok... I tested them only on M3 but they really behave as they should and not even overheat...

You just can't use the tires to brake you car or keep turning and turning when the car wants to widen up its racing line and if you do the tyres get heated over and over... i posted my finding with photos even. the consumption is 100% the same, times are actually faster now. So i guess it's your driving or way of tuning guys... I did 10 laps at bathurst no problem and made a whole test race of 14 laps at Road America yesterday too.



This.



Your tyre pressure mate?





This! Exactly what i found out. Drive Jenson Button style people! You can't drive the car as in an endless qualifying lap like aliens did so far. No one in real life drives their cars that way.

I hope they do not re-patch the game for complainers.

How many tracks have you tested?

 

[killerjimbag]

The truth. Or you think i made it up?



Concerning the above, I disagree, they are perfectly ok... I tested them only on M3 but they really behave as they should and not even overheat...

You just can't use the tires to brake you car or keep turning and turning when the car wants to widen up its racing line and if you do the tyres get heated over and over... i posted my finding with photos even. the consumption is 100% the same, times are actually faster now. So i guess it's your driving or way of tuning guys... I did 10 laps at bathurst no problem and made a whole test race of 14 laps at Road America yesterday too.



This.



Your tyre pressure mate?





This! Exactly what i found out. Drive Jenson Button style people! You can't drive the car as in an endless qualifying lap like aliens did so far. No one in real life drives their cars that way.

I hope they do not re-patch the game for complainers.

Couldn't agree more!
I guess us non alien's, are the aliens now.

 

[azidahaka]

How many tracks have you tested?

So far 2, i plan more when i get the time for it. Still if you are killing your tires at bathurst in 2 laps while i can run 10 laps with no issue it must mean something right?

Maybe i'm too slow for the car limit, but you are too past the tires limit?

i have no problem admitting i'm slow.

 

[Zakspeed_TV]

Fast people will still be fast but its still not right, the people who i know and i value there word are saying the same as me 👍

So far 2, i plan more when i get the time for it. Still if you are killing your tires at bathurst in 2 laps while i can run 10 laps with no issue it must mean something right?

Maybe i'm too slow for the car limit, but you are too past the tires limit?

i have no problem admitting i'm slow.

Try Brands GP its over kill Nords is ok tho, i have done loads of tracks and its hit and miss makes no sense.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I don't think they made this game for drifting,nor the update.

Grip only simulation then I always hope that the most realistic sim and tire model would be versatile and able to simulate variety range of driving conditions. It just needs more works IMO ( the tire and physics ), so drift or continuous high slip angle condition can be simulated, and perhaps we can have tires running on belts too after hard long drift sessions

Ever tried feint and clutch kick drift in Pcars on wheel ? Tried with DS4 long ago, it was herculean effort to string a couple of drift

 

[Animera]

Try Watkins Glen Short in a GT3. You can kill your tyres in 2 laps.
I tested quite a bit there and managed the temperatures with smoother driving.

 

[killerjimbag]

Grip only simulation then I always hope that the most realistic sim and tire model would be versatile and able to simulate variety range of driving conditions. It just needs more works IMO ( the tire and physics ), so drift or continuous high slip angle condition can be simulated, and perhaps we can have tires running on belts too after hard long drift sessions

I don't think SMS had drifting in mind when they made this,just my thoughts. I don't drift,so I can't help you there.

 

[azidahaka]

Couldn't agree more!
I guess us non alien's, are the aliens now.

Nah it'll just wash out some impossible videogame-like driving. Aliens will still have that extra edge.

Fast people will still be fast but its still not right, the people who i know and i value there word are saying the same as me 👍



Try Brands GP its over kill Nords is ok tho, i have done loads of tracks and its hit and miss makes no sense.

I will when i get home. I keep thinking it's down to the way you drive/throw car in corners try the long right at Road america that makes a 180°... Does you tires overheat to insanity? You are asking too much to tires if so, by not letting the cars slide naturally but driving against it forcing tire scrubing. A simple example of what i think is the basic issue.

 

[ozwheels]

Try Watkins Glen Short in a GT3. You can kill your tyres in 2 laps.
I tested quite a bit there and managed the temperatures with smoother driving.

If your a Watkins Glen fan do you think you can try the full track and see what your lap times when you can control the tire heat? The more feedback the better.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Just do continuous circle on skid pan for 15 - 20 minutes, maintaining speed, push harder a bit and see if the tires temp rise. It should stay stable with smooth gas and steering.

 

[ozwheels]

Just do continuous circle on skid pan for 15 - 20 minutes, maintaining speed, push harder a bit and see if the tires temp rise. It should stay stable with smooth gas and steering.

Where's the skid pad?

 

[Animera]

It's on the full Mojave track.

 

[killerjimbag]

Fast people will still be fast but its still not right, the people who i know and i value there word are saying the same as me 👍



Try Brands GP its over kill Nords is ok tho, i have done loads of tracks and its hit and miss makes no sense.

Did Brands actually using your Rocket Bunny tune,cooked the tires. Changed pressure,wastegate,raised RH and drove it like I owned it. Didn't scrub tires or push to hard was fine.
I think it's a trial and error thing now.
My setups all have to be redone too.

 

[ozwheels]

Didn't scrub tires or push to hard was fine.

Sort of defeats the purpose of racing.

 

[Zakspeed_TV]

.

Sort of defeats the purpose of racing.

Nail on the head OZ

 

[killerjimbag]

Sort of defeats the purpose of racing.

How does it defeat racing?
If I'm consistently behind you,on pace not pushing my car,saving my tires and your pushing your car,pushing your tires,who do you think is going to win? I guess it's your driving style vs mine? Push and loose,or conserve and win. Or it could go the other way. That's why it's called racing!

 

[killerjimbag]

Hell we could debate this till the cows come home.
This is the changes you got,some like it,some don't.

 

[HammyMansell]

What glitches have you experienced after 6.0?

Well, in the first session playing online yesterday with my mates using 6.0, my game froze causing PS4 to crash, as it did for another too. Others had disconnects as one session ended and another started, and other general glitches.....The same things as 5 months ago!

 

[killerjimbag]

Well, in the first session playing online yesterday with my mates using 6.0, my game froze causing PS4 to crash, as it did for another too. Others had disconnects as one session ended and another started, and other general glitches.....The same things as 5 months ago!

Raced for 5 hours tonight,not a problem. Sorry to hear that.

 

[ozwheels]

How does it defeat racing?
If I'm consistently behind you,on pace not pushing my car,saving my tires and your pushing your car,pushing your tires,who do you think is going to win? I guess it's your driving style vs mine? Push and loose,or conserve and win. Or it could go the other way. That's why it's called racing!

I don't think you understand what we are saying. No one is saying you shouldn't have to conserve tires at some point in the race. We are saying they heat up way too fast.

Let's look at a real world example. Brazilian GP second stint for Mercedes. Hamilton pushed like mad trying to pass Rosberg for some 10 laps. His tires wore out faster and he had to pit. He didn't however overheat his tires while he pushing for those 10 laps. He wore them out he did not overheat them.

That is the difference between what we have now and what real teams have. The tires we have overheat way too easily.

 

[bleeder]

Drove around Road America last night. Would always get front left overheating pre v6.0 and it wasn't any worse with 6.0 installed. That long spoon section is the cause of most of the overheating for me, I could see the tires reacting instantly, but unless I'm imagining it, the temps seemed to go down quicker on the start/finish straight. That's a good thing. Perhaps a balance to the new tire model?

I like to think I have a smooth style so haven't noticed a big change, unlike my mate who comes round to play. Will be interesting to see what happens when he gets behind the wheel and starts throwing cars into corners.

But as ever with this game, I need to do more testing!

 

[killerjimbag]

I don't think you understand what we are saying. No one is saying you shouldn't have to conserve tires at some point in the race. We are saying they heat up way too fast.

Let's look at a real world example. Brazilian GP second stint for Mercedes. Hamilton pushed like mad trying to pass Rosberg for some 10 laps. His tires wore out faster and he had to pit. He didn't however overheat his tires while he pushing for those 10 laps. He wore them out he did not overheat them.

That is the difference between what we have now and what real teams have. The tires we have overheat way too easily.

What? Uhm,ok. His tires wore out,do you not think tire degregration has nothing to do with heat. What tires was he on? Soft,inters? We're his tires used in practice, qualifying? There's your answers. You are overheating your tires,not the game,don't and you won't have the problem.

 

[HammyMansell]

Maybe the people at SMS/WMD played with the 'Hotwheels' toy cars as kids, just that now they've taken the name a bit too literally!!!

 

[ozwheels]

What? Uhm,ok. His tires wore out,do you not think tire degregration has nothing to do with heat. What tires was he on? Soft,inters? We're his tires used in practice, qualifying? There's your answers. You are overheating your tires,not the game,don't and you won't have the problem.

You have missed my point entirely, again.

Tires having a window for the maximum performance for a given temperature. In pCars GT3 it is about 190F-220F. You can pace yourself and keep tires in the lower portion of that window, around 195. Then when you push your ties go up to 220-225. They never overheat, but they do wear faster because 225 is clearly hotter than 195. With the new tires you have to pace yourself just to stay at 225. So when you push they go upwards up 245-255. Do you see the problem now? Again if your not at the limit of the car you will think the new tires are fine because even when your pushing your tires are still around 225 because your not on the limit of what the car can do.

Literally the best way I can explain it.

 

[Mike_grpA]

However if anyone thinks this new load sensitivity is realistic, they are crazy. We're talking seconds that need to be lost just to keep tires under 100C. That's absurd.

I think you're just struggling to adapt to a tyre model that now more accurately models temperature. Before 6.0 the temp model was extremely conservative. What isn't realistic is being able to run the softest compound available at high slip angles for long stints without overheating them. Having to actually find that sweet spot to avoid excessive slip is what race drivers do every day. You don't think real race drivers actually push beyond the limits of the tyres' grip constantly trying to go for pure lap time during a race do you?

Let's look at a real world example. Brazilian GP second stint for Mercedes. Hamilton pushed like mad trying to pass Rosberg for some 10 laps. His tires wore out faster and he had to pit. He didn't however overheat his tires while he pushing for those 10 laps. He wore them out he did not overheat them.

...Oh, you do...

Do you have Hamilton's telemetry from the race? Do you think his engineers would let him exceed the available grip and overheat his tyres severely? They are constantly riding a fine line between performance and managing their tyres. Lewis pushed a little too hard on his tyres in Brazil, which led to an early drop off, handing Rosberg the advantage, as he was managing his tyres better.

Mercedes switched Rosberg onto a three stop strategy solely to allow Hamilton to go onto that strategy, as he'd ruined his tyres and couldn't two stop, but Mercedes don't allow split strategies, they always force both drivers to do the same number of stops.

Your example actually proves the opposite of what you think it does. The Pirelli F1 tyres are designed to emphasise thermal deg, and there's no way Hamilton would have actually worn down his prime tyres in that short stint, he had ruined them by driving too hard. Thermal degradation is the far more likely cause of his performance drop off. He could have abused them much more if he wasn't a top flight race driver. No doubt 99% of video game racers would destroy an F1 tyre set in a few laps from overheating, assuming they have the balls to even find the grip limits.

I think people actually believe that you can push the limits of grip and the tyres will be fine in real life, and that's just not the case. Perhaps the tyres do need more work, but it seems to me, from all the comments here and in the official forum, like they're definitely going in the right direction with them.

 

[killerjimbag]

You have missed my point entirely, again.

Tires having a window for the maximum performance for a given temperature. In pCars GT3 it is about 190F-220F. You can pace yourself and keep tires in the lower portion of that window, around 195. Then when you push your ties go up to 220-225. They never overheat, but they do wear faster because 225 is clearly hotter than 195. With the new tires you have to pace yourself just to stay at 225. So when you push they go upwards up 245-255. Do you see the problem now? Again if your not at the limit of the car you will think the new tires are fine because even when your pushing your tires are still around 225 because your not on the limit of what the car can do.

Literally the best way I can explain it.

I'll explain this as plain as possible.
The tire model has changed,"you"are now exceding the tires limits. So the limit of the car is now realistic to "real world" tires.

 

[Mike_grpA]

I'll also add that leaderboard times were unrealistically fast before this change, and now people are reporting their times are much more realistic than they were achieving pre 6.0.

 

[bleeder]

On a different note, I'm liking the timed race option. It's a roulette to see if you get a bonus lap, I crossed the line with about 2 seconds of my selected time remaining and got an extra lap to finish the race. Nice.

It's also funny when you could be heading towards the finish line and pit guy will call out 'this is the final lap of the race' and then you literally end.

Makes selecting correct amount of fuel a bit more tricky again on the flip side.

 

[ozwheels]

I think you're just struggling to adapt to a tyre model that now more accurately models temperature. Before 6.0 the temp model was extremely conservative. What isn't realistic is being able to run the softest compound available at high slip angles for long stints without overheating them. Having to actually find that sweet spot to avoid excessive slip is what race drivers do every day. You don't think real race drivers actually push beyond the limits of the tyres' grip constantly trying to go for pure lap time during a race do you?



...Oh, you do...

Do you have Hamilton's telemetry from the race? Do you think his engineers would let him exceed the available grip and overheat his tyres severely? They are constantly riding a fine line between performance and managing their tyres. Lewis pushed a little too hard on his tyres in Brazil, which led to an early drop off, handing Rosberg the advantage, as he was managing his tyres better.

Mercedes switched Rosberg onto a three stop strategy solely to allow Hamilton to go onto that strategy, as he'd ruined his tyres and couldn't two stop, but Mercedes don't allow split strategies, they always force both drivers to do the same number of stops.

Your example actually proves the opposite of what you think it does. The Pirelli F1 tyres are designed to emphasise thermal deg, and there's no way Hamilton would have actually worn down his prime tyres in that short stint, he had ruined them by driving too hard. Thermal degradation is the far more likely cause of his performance drop off. He could have abused them much more if he wasn't a top flight race driver. No doubt 99% of video game racers would destroy an F1 tyre set in a few laps from overheating, assuming they have the balls to even find the grip limits.

I think people actually believe that you can push the limits of grip and the tyres will be fine in real life, and that's just not the case. Perhaps the tyres do need more work, but it seems to me, from all the comments here and in the official forum, like they're definitely going in the right direction with them.

I agree with most of your post as you obviously know your stuff, but I'm going to have to disagree here.

The tires are way way too sensitive to load. You literally cannot push. I agree the tire model shouldn't allow you too push 100% on softs for the whole race. The new tire however doesn't let you push at all you have to baby them all the time. It just needs to be turned down a little. When I say push I mean run lap times that will win the race no matter who your racing against.

Edit: Times aren't any slower or faster as long as you baby the tires on the out lap.

 

[Mike_grpA]

I agree with most of your post as you obviously know your stuff, but I'm going to have to disagree here.

The tires are way way too sensitive to load. You literally cannot push. I agree the tire model shouldn't allow you too push 100% on softs for the whole race. The new tire however doesn't let you push at all you have to baby them all the time. It just needs to be turned down a little. When I say push I mean run lap times that will win the race no matter who your racing against.

Edit: Times aren't any slower or faster as long as you baby the tires on the out lap.

I often read F1 radio transcripts (Yes that's how much of a motorsport nerd I am lol), and drivers regularly complain that their tyres are going off towards the end of a flying lap in qualifying. This is dependent on circuit, as some circuits are just harder on tyres than others of course, but it's a very regular thing for a race driver to encounter.

You manage your temps on the outlap, and then push hard for one fast lap, often finding if you push a little too hard in the first two sectors, you won't have the grip you want for the final sector.

Because of this, drivers need to take into account which sector is most important to have the most grip for, and if it's the final sector, they'll have to nurse the tyres more in the outlap and start with less temp for the first sector, and often not push at all for the first sector, in order to maximise grip in the more important final sector.

During the race, drivers are nowhere near the limits of the tyres absolute grip, because doing that will ruin the tyres in only a few laps. The best drivers can ride that perfect line between pace and management that will give them good pace, but not overdo the tyres.

A good example of this is the difference between Sebastian Vettel and Kimi Raikkonen. They've been in identical cars for a year, and Kimi, despite being very good at conserving tyres earlier in his career, is proving to be much slower toward the end of stints, often having overdone his tyres and complaining over the radio that they're done, when the team is trying to stretch out his stints. Seb, on the other hand, seems to post very consistent times, and there have been a number of races this year where he has been very clever with the tyres.

Singapore is one race where Seb was trying out different tyre management strategies. His first stint he went hard for three laps, pulling 2 seconds per lap on Dan Ricciardo in second, and then tried to manage this gap for the remainder of the stint, but he pushed a little too hard, and found it difficult to manage the gap, Dan ended up reeling him in progressively from lap 4 onward. His second stint he did the opposite, and drove as slowly as he could without allowing Dan a chance at a pass, and then when he was close to his pit window he laid down a set of 3 or 4 astonishing lap times and put a big gap behind him in order to have a buffer for his next stop.

The best drivers can win a race in the longest time possible. Single lap pace is but a tiny portion of what makes a good driver. Ask Rosberg, before his last two wins, he had converted only 2 of his last 12 poles into victories.