Patch Release Notes and Discussion Thread

[ozwheels]

I often read F1 radio transcripts (Yes that's how much of a motorsport nerd I am lol), and drivers regularly complain that their tyres are going off towards the end of a flying lap in qualifying. This is dependent on circuit, as some circuits are just harder on tyres than others of course, but it's a very regular thing for a race driver to encounter.

You manage your temps on the outlap, and then push hard for one fast lap, often finding if you push a little too hard in the first two sectors, you won't have the grip you want for the final sector.

Because of this, drivers need to take into account which sector is most important to have the most grip for, and if it's the final sector, they'll have to nurse the tyres more in the outlap and start with less temp for the first sector, and often not push at all for the first sector, in order to maximise grip in the more important final sector.

During the race, drivers are nowhere near the limits of the tyres absolute grip, because doing that will ruin the tyres in only a few laps. The best drivers can ride that perfect line between pace and management that will give them good pace, but not overdo the tyres.

A good example of this is the difference between Sebastian Vettel and Kimi Raikkonen. They've been in identical cars for a year, and Kimi, despite being very good at conserving tyres earlier in his career, is proving to be much slower toward the end of stints, often having overdone his tyres and complaining over the radio that they're done, when the team is trying to stretch out his stints. Seb, on the other hand, seems to post very consistent times, and there have been a number of races this year where he has been very clever with the tyres.

Singapore is one race where Seb was trying out different tyre management strategies. His first stint he went hard for three laps, pulling 2 seconds per lap on Dan Ricciardo in second, and then tried to manage this gap for the remainder of the stint, but he pushed a little too hard, and found it difficult to manage the gap, Dan ended up reeling him in progressively from lap 4 onward. His second stint he did the opposite, and drove as slowly as he could without allowing Dan a chance at a pass, and then when he was close to his pit window he laid down a set of 3 or 4 astonishing lap times and put a big gap behind him in order to have a buffer for his next stop.

The best drivers can win a race in the longest time possible. Single lap pace is but a tiny portion of what makes a good driver. Ask Rosberg, before his last two wins, he had converted only 2 of his last 12 poles into victories.

I understand what your saying and I agree with it. However I don't think GT3 chassis have the ability to overwhelm their tires in 2 laps like a F1 chassis does. SMS doesn't give out it's tire model info (rightfully so), so I'm making an educated assumption here.

 

[Yellowbeard]

I don't play with setups due to the very limited time I get to play so I have to work with the default settings so forgive me if this is a dumb question .....
Does opening or closing the brake ducts make much difference to the tyre temperatures in the game ? I'm wondering if cooling the brakes more would help the people complaining about the overheating tyres.
Was trying to get the hang of the rocket bunny round Brands GP last night and had almost constantly reddy brown tyres on the left hand side lol

 

[ozwheels]

I don't play with setups due to the very limited time I get to play so I have to work with the default settings so forgive me if this is a dumb question .....
Does opening or closing the brake ducts make much difference to the tyre temperatures in the game ? I'm wondering if cooling the brakes more would help the people complaining about the overheating tyres.
Was trying to get the hang of the rocket bunny round Brands GP last night and had almost constantly reddy brown tyres on the left hand side lol

Yes heat is transferred from the brakes to the tires, but you don't want to run your brakes too cold trying to control tire temps.

 

[Zakspeed_TV]

I mite go back to GT6

I don't play with setups due to the very limited time I get to play so I have to work with the default settings so forgive me if this is a dumb question .....
Does opening or closing the brake ducts make much difference to the tyre temperatures in the game ? I'm wondering if cooling the brakes more would help the people complaining about the overheating tyres.
Was trying to get the hang of the rocket bunny round Brands GP last night and had almost constantly reddy brown tyres on the left hand side lol

No i try the vents open wide too, you have to go slow now and not push.

 

[azidahaka]

Edit: Times aren't any slower or faster as long as you baby the tires on the out lap.

i'm a bit faster but that might be because i had conservative tunes/driving and i manage to get that little extra heat/grip on tires now... Can't wait to finish work to go home testing some more lol

 

[Yellowbeard]

Yes heat is transferred from the brakes to the tires, but you don't want to run your brakes too cold trying to control tire temps.

I mite go back to GT6



No i try the vents open wide too, you have to go slow now and not push.

Thanks for the replies .... I might have a problem then, after years of driving diesel 4x4s IRL I have a tendency to have a lead foot when I haven't played for a few days

That being said I can't wait to get on tonight (hopefully) and have another go at one of my favourite things .... thrashing the Caterham Classic round Oulton Park for ten lap races with as much tyre smoke as possible. I'd generally get to about lap 8 before it felt like the track was getting icy, be interesting to see how quickly it happens now

 

[Mike_grpA]

I understand what your saying and I agree with it. However I don't think GT3 chassis have the ability to overwhelm their tires in 2 laps like a F1 chassis does. SMS doesn't give out it's tire model info (rightfully so), so I'm making an educated assumption here.

Like I said, the tyre model might need more work, but it's clearly going in the right direction. I'm not sure about the construction of the tyres in GT3, but tyres can't be compared between series' as they're always very different, so GT3 tyres won't act like F1 tyres on a GT3 car, or an F1 car for that matter, but you can't compare how two completely different types of car treat two completely different constructions of tyre.

I know that tyre management is a big part of any kind of track racing, and I also know that professional racing drivers have a much better natural feel for when the tyres are approaching their limits than the average person, not to mention that in a real car you can feel the tyres limits about a million times more accurately than you can in a sim.

I'm not saying you, or anyone else not happy with these changes, are a bad driver, but perhaps the way the game used to promote being aggressive and throwing the car around to be fast, has gotten many people into bad habits to get the fastest times. I know that coming from GT type semi sims to Pcars I had to unlearn a lot of bad habits. I had to stop driving it like I would in other games and start driving more like I do on a real track.

I'm still yet to try this patch (Back up is nearly finished, but then I gotta install the new drive and restore my games, no racing for me tonight ), but from what I'm reading I'm going to have to treat the tyres even more like real tyres now. I was purposely being aggressive with my set up and my driving to extract max performance, because there was no penalty, but now it looks like I'll have to race more realistically, which to me is exciting. I can chuck on any racing game if I want to throw a car around and push it up to and beyond the limit, but I haven't had a game where I have to properly manage the rubber.

 

[Zakspeed_TV]

The track soft are fine in the 1-series BMW

 

[ozwheels]

Like I said, the tyre model might need more work, but it's clearly going in the right direction. I'm not sure about the construction of the tyres in GT3, but tyres can't be compared between series' as they're always very different, so GT3 tyres won't act like F1 tyres on a GT3 car, or an F1 car for that matter, but you can't compare how two completely different types of car treat two completely different constructions of tyre.

I know that tyre management is a big part of any kind of track racing, and I also know that professional racing drivers have a much better natural feel for when the tyres are approaching their limits than the average person, not to mention that in a real car you can feel the tyres limits about a million times more accurately than you can in a sim.

I'm not saying you, or anyone else not happy with these changes, are a bad driver, but perhaps the way the game used to promote being aggressive and throwing the car around to be fast, has gotten many people into bad habits to get the fastest times. I know that coming from GT type semi sims to Pcars I had to unlearn a lot of bad habits. I had to stop driving it like I would in other games and start driving more like I do on a real track.

I'm still yet to try this patch (Back up is nearly finished, but then I gotta install the new drive and restore my games, no racing for me tonight ), but from what I'm reading I'm going to have to treat the tyres even more like real tyres now. I was purposely being aggressive with my set up and my driving to extract max performance, because there was no penalty, but now it looks like I'll have to race more realistically, which to me is exciting. I can chuck on any racing game if I want to throw a car around and push it up to and beyond the limit, but I haven't had a game where I have to properly manage the rubber.

I won't keep trying to convince you until you've tried it yourself. I think we are on the same page just different paragraphs.

 

[TDZdave]

I've not got the patch yet, but altering a tire model is a big thing, specially when I believe that it really wasn't required, just some fine tuning at some circuits to make them more user friendly,

 

[bleeder]

I don't play with setups due to the very limited time I get to play so I have to work with the default settings so forgive me if this is a dumb question .....
Does opening or closing the brake ducts make much difference to the tyre temperatures in the game ? I'm wondering if cooling the brakes more would help the people complaining about the overheating tyres.
Was trying to get the hang of the rocket bunny round Brands GP last night and had almost constantly reddy brown tyres on the left hand side lol

I asked this very question myself a while ago and as far as I can tell there's been no official answer if brake ducts affect tire temps in this game. IRL I would've thought they would, but if someone can link an SMS answer that'd be great. Trial and error hasn't proven it to me either way really.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I've not got the patch yet, but altering a tire model is a big thing, specially when I believe that it really wasn't required, just some fine tuning at some circuits to make them more user friendly,

I think what bothers people most is that this change came out of the blue and was only mentioned with a low-key one-liner in the patch notes. In reality, it's basically a new tire model and having to relearn/retune everything. A headsup or warning would have been in order here (much like AC's new tire model where Kunos warned that you had to start from scratch).

 

[Zakspeed_TV]

Just doing a 25 lap race on lap 16 in the 1-series most of my right tyres have gone but i just set my fastest lap, how real is that?

EDIT lap 20 .500 faster nearly all gone in the right

 

[bleeder]

Just doing a 25 lap race on lap 16 in the 1-series most of my right tyres have gone but i just set my fastest lap, how real is that?

EDIT lap 20 .500 faster nearly all gone in the right

Less rubber = less weight therefore faster times?
LOL

 

[Zakspeed_TV]

WOW online GT3 is dead 5 rooms


SMS really know how to piss off there customers

 

[azidahaka]

We might finally get clean rooms now

 

[bleeder]

Just ran a 10 lap race round Catalunya in the 12C GT3 (my newest tune, great car) and saw my left tires go real hot. The front left was around 275 for most of the race but strangely enough my lap times weren't affected all that much. Was putting in 1:48/1:49s consistently, even when the temp was low. Even the handling didn't seem to suffer a lot which surprised me.

Was also messing with the brake ducts too and I think there's a difference between 0 and, say 60, but not a huge one.

 

[HammyMansell]

Just doing a 25 lap race on lap 16 in the 1-series most of my right tyres have gone but i just set my fastest lap, how real is that?

EDIT lap 20 .500 faster nearly all gone in the right

On a different note quickly Zak, why are you doing that 25 lapper in the Beemer? Is it for Thursday? See you then brother!!

But yes, if what people are saying/thinking is true regarding the change in the tyre model, then it's all that hard work on setups for nothing in the end. And with racers like Zak, Ozwheels and others saying that there is a difference, then i take them at their word.

 

[Zakspeed_TV]

On a different note quickly Zak, why are you doing that 25 lapper in the Beemer? Is it for Thursday? See you then brother!!

But yes, if what people are saying/thinking is true regarding the change in the tyre model, then it's all that hard work on setups for nothing in the end. And with racers like Zak, Ozwheels and others saying that their is a difference, then i take them at their word.

Yeah never been in any of the road cars so did a quick test, good fun to be honest and the tyres was fine so nothing like the GT3s

 

[HammyMansell]

Yeah never been in any of the road cars so did a quick test, good fun to be honest and the tyres was fine so nothing like the GT3s

Yeah we did a quick race last night us CRAPpers in the M1 (to test the new patch ironically lol!) and it was great fun! I'll be in the Merc A class!

 

[bleeder]

Took my Radical SR8 out for a spin round The Glen, brake ducts at 0%, front left tire was almost solid red by the end of lap 3. Retuned ducts to 60%, restarted race and this time the same tire went red by the end of lap 2.

Not sure the ducts do anything at all regarding tire temp.

On the plus side, this kind of tire overheating happened to me at this track before patch 6.0, so I can't say it's any worse now.

 

[Zakspeed_TV]

Yeah we did a quick race last night us CRAPpers in the M1 (to test the new patch ironically lol!) and it was great fun! I'll be in the Merc A class!

Yeah should be good fun mate, i enjoy running slow cars as you have to be super smooth to keep speed 👍

So you should be able to run 25 laps without stopping mate as tyre wear wasn't working

 

[HammyMansell]

Yeah should be good fun mate, i enjoy running slow cars as you have to be super smooth to keep speed 👍

So you should be able to run 25 laps without stopping mate as tyre wear wasn't working

Haha no Zak, but they'll still be glowing bright red after a few laps!!!!

 

[killerjimbag]

WOW online GT3 is dead 5 rooms


SMS really know how to piss off there customers

You ever think the host kick function actually is working?

 

[diesel97]

little more info from Casey the tire guy

Originally Posted by Casey Ringley
Last but not least, patch 6 includes some recalibration of tire heating models. Some folks in a G40 league here found an issue where a slight increase in pressure could cause an extreme amount of overheating in the tires. We tracked it down to a fix in a change in how the carcass generates heat at low inflation pressure, but this sent us down a rabbit hole of checking that no cars had completely broken tires with the change. Things are much better with the fix in place. Temperature balance front to rear looks more correct on most cars and it removes something of an exploit that was possible in car setup. You’ll need to take more care with setting tire pressures now and can expect a larger response from those changes.

With the fix, tires heat faster, more predictably, and will really punish you for poor driving and setup in a way they didn't before. A lot of tires could move to more standardized values without needing lots of extra calibration just to get the right front to rear temperature balance. Before, if rear tires started at a lower pressure, they could run up against a limit near ideal pressure and lose heat; ending up cooler than the front even if the handling balance was strongly biased to oversteer. Now they get nice, consistent heating and show a reasonably higher carcass temp than non-driven fronts, which then filters through to hotter tread. Generally the temps are feeling more representative of handling balance now. Cool stuff.

While in there recalibrating the heat, I merged in some ideas we've been playing with for pCARS 2. Biggest of those is that most slick tires (those based on our SLICK_GT3 template) now have a larger temperature range for the rubber of 0-200°C. This fits in with stuff we've learned from rallycross where tires under extreme stress creep up to 180C or more. This has a pretty cool result of accentuating the camber effects of a tire so the inside edge reads significantly hotter as it should. Implies that our the old cap around 150-165C was limiting heat gain on the inside edge but not the outside. Also does a very good job at punishing the driver for abusive technique.

Some tire sets also had slight wear rate recalibration to fit with changes brought on by the new heat model. Anything that did change stayed at the same starting grip as before, but some will wear faster now and with a stronger grip loss effect. Prototype work on the upcoming V8 Supercar helped to hone in the right reference point for grip loss on a heavily worn tire. Generally the cost is about 2s over a 2min lap at the end of a run. Go longer than that and you're likely to find yourself driving it off the performance cliff and losing heaps of time.


by no way i am saying who is right or wrong, just adding more info

Nailed it. What we've learned is that the rubber can get hotter than we thought before certain compounds phase change and do other weird stuff. A loaded tyre surface might be closer to 200°C when sliding now rather than 165°C. That means more heat energy building up in the tread, so if you abuse the tyres by scrubbing them excessively or using a compound too soft for the track-weather combination, they are more likely to overheat now. Greater long term penalty for short term mistakes. As Tiago noted, the performance is still in there, but you have to work harder/smarter to get it without killing your rubber. For one quick lap, manage the starting temps and burn them up. If you want to run quick over a full race distance, think more about tyre management and not just turning fastest laps one after another for an hour.

 

[bleeder]

little more info from Casey the tire guy

Originally Posted by Casey Ringley
Last but not least, patch 6 includes some recalibration of tire heating models. Some folks in a G40 league here found an issue where a slight increase in pressure could cause an extreme amount of overheating in the tires. We tracked it down to a fix in a change in how the carcass generates heat at low inflation pressure, but this sent us down a rabbit hole of checking that no cars had completely broken tires with the change. Things are much better with the fix in place. Temperature balance front to rear looks more correct on most cars and it removes something of an exploit that was possible in car setup. You’ll need to take more care with setting tire pressures now and can expect a larger response from those changes.

With the fix, tires heat faster, more predictably, and will really punish you for poor driving and setup in a way they didn't before. A lot of tires could move to more standardized values without needing lots of extra calibration just to get the right front to rear temperature balance. Before, if rear tires started at a lower pressure, they could run up against a limit near ideal pressure and lose heat; ending up cooler than the front even if the handling balance was strongly biased to oversteer. Now they get nice, consistent heating and show a reasonably higher carcass temp than non-driven fronts, which then filters through to hotter tread. Generally the temps are feeling more representative of handling balance now. Cool stuff.

While in there recalibrating the heat, I merged in some ideas we've been playing with for pCARS 2. Biggest of those is that most slick tires (those based on our SLICK_GT3 template) now have a larger temperature range for the rubber of 0-200°C. This fits in with stuff we've learned from rallycross where tires under extreme stress creep up to 180C or more. This has a pretty cool result of accentuating the camber effects of a tire so the inside edge reads significantly hotter as it should. Implies that our the old cap around 150-165C was limiting heat gain on the inside edge but not the outside. Also does a very good job at punishing the driver for abusive technique.

Some tire sets also had slight wear rate recalibration to fit with changes brought on by the new heat model. Anything that did change stayed at the same starting grip as before, but some will wear faster now and with a stronger grip loss effect. Prototype work on the upcoming V8 Supercar helped to hone in the right reference point for grip loss on a heavily worn tire. Generally the cost is about 2s over a 2min lap at the end of a run. Go longer than that and you're likely to find yourself driving it off the performance cliff and losing heaps of time.


by no way i am saying who is right or wrong, just adding more info

Nailed it. What we've learned is that the rubber can get hotter than we thought before certain compounds phase change and do other weird stuff. A loaded tyre surface might be closer to 200°C when sliding now rather than 165°C. That means more heat energy building up in the tread, so if you abuse the tyres by scrubbing them excessively or using a compound too soft for the track-weather combination, they are more likely to overheat now. Greater long term penalty for short term mistakes. As Tiago noted, the performance is still in there, but you have to work harder/smarter to get it without killing your rubber. For one quick lap, manage the starting temps and burn them up. If you want to run quick over a full race distance, think more about tyre management and not just turning fastest laps one after another for an hour.

That all makes sense, but i think it's the speed of overheating that's an issue now. For example, should soft tires really start overheating in just 2 laps? Sometimes I want a 4/5 lap race without worrying about tire temps, but it's not to be. In a related note, I guess we're going to have to pay more attention to the track temp every time we race. I wonder if there's a way to know that if the track temp is X, it's best to run mediums or hards, and if it's Y, softs will do.

I'm actually liking this new strategy we have to deal with.

 

[diesel97]

That all makes sense, but i think it's the speed of overheating that's an issue now. For example, should soft tires really start overheating in just 2 laps? Sometimes I want a 4/5 lap race without worrying about tire temps, but it's not to be. In a related note, I guess we're going to have to pay more attention to the track temp every time we race. I wonder if there's a way to know that if the track temp is X, it's best to run mediums or hards, and if it's Y, softs will do.

I'm actually liking this new strategy we have to deal with.

I think for a 4 or 5 lap race you should be able to keep the tires in the red with out fall off , The tire wear gauge on the HUD goes from 100% to 50% so if your tires are showing no tread left it mean you still have 50% of your tire left.

I havent tried the fall off of the new model yet.

 

[TDZdave]

If that Casey fella is correct, then there should be a substantial difference in tire heat with weather variables,

 

[bleeder]

I think for a 4 or 5 lap race you should be able to keep the tires in the red with out fall off , The tire wear gauge on the HUD goes from 100% to 50% so if your tires are showing no tread left it mean you still have 50% of your tire left.

I havent tried the fall off of the new model yet.

That's good to know!

 

[Spooky Wooky]

2 Questions

a) Has SMS confirmed that the tyres are behaving how they want them to
b) Does the current tyre model render all current tunes obsolete?