- 1
- United Kingdom
PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!
- Thread starter Gareth davies
- 6,543 comments
- 446,953 views
- 630
- United States
The green car is innocent.
The green car knows the Toyota is going to try the overtake (that's why the green car go in the inside line), and he does nothing to avoid the Toyota collision, the green car goes straight on instead of correcting his position to protect himself from the collision.
Green car line is not good, when we overtake or we are overtaken we have to react to others movements to avoid collision, he does nothing.
When he sees the Toyota line he should protect himself going to the left instead of going straight on as if nothing happens. He kwows that the Toyota is overtaken because the green car line is there defending from the Toyota.
The green car is innocent but he could make something to avoid the collision, like in real racing.
- 665
- Edmonton, AB
- GTP_Torontoblue
- 87,139
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Why then the green car is in that line ? It has no sense. He should go in the line behind the red car.
The green car is in that line because he knows the Toyota is going to try the overtake even if he missed the braking point (intentioned or not).
So the green car should have an eye put into the car who is overtaking in order to react and avoid risks.
- 665
- Edmonton, AB
- GTP_Torontoblue
- 87,139
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Myriad reasons. The primary one at that particular corner is so that you don't experience loss of braking due to being in the slipstream.
There's no possible way to know that the Toyota will miss his braking point and be 30mph too fast into a corner, ploughing through it like a freight train.
The Toyota should have recognised the failure and abandoned the corner. Instead he's swerved across the Audi's bows (and clipped it), then smashed into another innocent third party by trying to make a corner he's never going to make. Brake failure avoiding action should always be to the outside of the track, because that's where cars aren't going to be.
Penalising the Audi is insane (you like bringing up how in real-life it would cause damage and that would be the penalty; that contact in real life would have caused almost no damage to a GT3 car. Perhaps a broken canard), as is placing any blame whatsoever at their door for another driver's error compounding an earlier error.
- 630
- United States
So by that, we can’t go on the inside? That was his line. That’s normal as long as he stayed there. Toyota was free on the outside. If the Toyota had braked to a reasonable speed, it could have round the corner with the green car. It can be done. There’s no need for single file in that turn.
Yes we can, but if someone is overtaking us we must look his line and react to avoid collisions, not going on like we are alone.
The green car goes all the straight in the middle line, not only at braking, and he is far enough from the red car at braking to continue in the inside if it's not because he is defending from the Toyota as I asume.
Yes, I agree, the Toyota should have abandoned the corner.
The red car could do nothing to avoid the collision, but in my opinion, the green car could avoid it or at least, tryed.
1 second is not insane in my opinion, it's like almost no damage as you say.
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- 630
- United States
Yep. I’m done as well. Good day or night.
Could be as simple as that - the yellow flag was showing when you passed the red car, never mind that it was part of the incident
I don't think so, the red car is in ghost mode when the green car passed him, I think that in that case it doesn't count like an overtake while yellow flags.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
True, that should be the case! Another slim possibility is that it was from passing the Toyota under yellow - even though it seemed the yellow doesn't come in until after he's passed, it's pretty close. Maybe 1 sec isn't what you'd get for overtaking under yellow these days, I don't know...?
- 2,206
- United Kingdom
- breeminator
- breeminator
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
It has always been 3 seconds and the game displays the reason, overtaking under yellow. It's pretty rare to get it but can happen when a yellow flag comes up and you're driving close through a chicane where the positions on the rank list briefly change due to the geometry of the track. It can also happen when a yellow flag is triggered somewhere beyond a penalty zone and you pass cars serving penalties. Or a yellow flag triggers up ahead while the car in front of you misses the turn and goes off. I guess you are supposed to stop and wait for them to get out of the sand
It was a simple survivor penalty. Contact happened, the car gaining from it, staying on the road, gets a penalty.
- 3,816
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
THIS has AI behind it? Well, the coder should be sent back to school.
I know the reasons. It's obvious there is no system, equal and fair across all skill levels that deals consistent penalties for infractions. THAT is the only thing that will fix this.
Look, in all sports, rules are rules. If someone is off side in soccer, there is no one trying to determine if there was intent to be off side, you either are or are not off side.
So, this "AI" thinks I am a dirty jerk for this attempt to avoid an accident, (btw, even though it doesn't show in the replay, it did say that my penalty was for "forcing another car off track")
However, this unsafe dive down the inside, that had no other possible outcome other than contact, where TWO cars get hit, is just fine by PD. No penalty for this at all even though I was sent spinning off track for this. I am in the Orange Evo.
Their solutions are terrible and overly complicated.
I know the reasons. It's obvious there is no system, equal and fair across all skill levels that deals consistent penalties for infractions. THAT is the only thing that will fix this.
Look, in all sports, rules are rules. If someone is off side in soccer, there is no one trying to determine if there was intent to be off side, you either are or are not off side.
So, this "AI" thinks I am a dirty jerk for this attempt to avoid an accident, (btw, even though it doesn't show in the replay, it did say that my penalty was for "forcing another car off track")
However, this unsafe dive down the inside, that had no other possible outcome other than contact, where TWO cars get hit, is just fine by PD. No penalty for this at all even though I was sent spinning off track for this. I am in the Orange Evo.
Their solutions are terrible and overly complicated.
In all sports, rules are rules... but consequences of a collision are not always in justice for everyone.
In real racing, when a car crash another who spins the consequences are damage (=time).
You have to react to avoid collisions from others faults or asume the penalty, like in real racing. That's the system : a collision always can have consequences, fear or unfear to everyone.
In the second video, that happens too in real racing, that's part of racing and you have to asume that can happen in every race or in 1/10 races depending of your skills avoiding risks and your SR level.
They are both tragical crashes that can happen in real racing, with severe damage (or time lost) to the less guilty driver involved.
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- 2,219
- Tennessee
- NoStopN
I finally had to put someone on the ignore list due to their view on the video evidence that we have in this thread.
The Toyota missing the braking point is a good explanation for the sudden appearance of the car. But, they are the car out of control & the cause of the red car going off track. The green car getting any penalty at all is incorrect. This is our point about that clip.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
That second one is what annoys me most about the system. Risk vs reward is completely off balance when stuff like that gets rewarded. It looks like the old bug where a car coming from off track (looks like he cuts the corner there) is immune to penalties. Or perhaps some lag was involved. There is some odd movement at the start of the clip where there could have been contact with the car in front a bit before he dives through the inside cutting the corner. The system gets confused, contact, one car goes off yet gains positions, contradiction, no penalties.
- 818
- Seattle
- Fudman420
I race in clean leagues and do lobby racing, rarely do I participate fia or daily races because of the penalty system,but, there isn't any reason we shouldn't all want the system to improve. Also, I think this thread is good therapy for folks. Instead of returning a punt we can come here and complain a bit. Then just maybe PD will stumble on to the thread and there is 80+ pages of videos and descriptions they can use.
- 3,816
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
Total BS. By this logic, yank the whole system. That's exactly what you are supporting.
If there is to be a system to penalize people for impacts, it should penalize based on set rules.
Racing games have had catastrophic damage for almost two decades now. It's old tech. GTSport has damage, it's not catastrophic (as in pieces flying everywhere) but it is in game. If PD wants to replicate damage, institute damage. There is no need for a proxy to damage. Therefore, since that isn't being used, penalties are meant to penalize for bad behavior, hence the comments about what you did wrong to earn the penalty and why your "sportsmanship rating" takes a hit.
I was not being a poor sportsman when I was being penalized, while at the same time, that other video shows someone being a little rash, even overly aggressive, and definitely less sportsman.
To be clear, the reason it bothers me is simply because the two events are easily differentiated. My penalty was from something COMPLETELY unintentional to the point of being nigh impossible to pull off intentionally. The second video shows an intentional move with no expectation that a collision would be avoided.
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Real racing is full of COMPLETELY unintentional crashes too... and their consequences for the less guilty of drivers involved.
You can't ask for a justice system without deleting all the risk aspect of racing.
If we know that there will be always justice then there is no risk, we go on as we are alone, that's not racing ! Racing is feeling fear ! Feeling the risk from your mistakes and for others drivers mistakes !
Racing is about consequences ! Not about justice ! It's about managing risk to continue the race to the end as fast as possible.
In real racing you crash or get crashed : then you can get negative consequences (time lost or damage). It's not always the same and only sometimes the most guilty gets the hardest consequences.
Damage or time penalty is THE SAME THING afterall ! You get damage = you loss time !!! It's the same. You can scale it for more time or less (as in games the race length is scaled too), but it's the same consequence : time.
What do you want ? get damaged after a crash, forced to pass through boxes, repairing it, loosing more time and coming here to post your video with 40 seconds lost when that was not your fault ???
If GTS penalty system penalizes good drivers, then SR should be full of dirty people, and that's not the case.
This system works well enough because people in SR S99 are the people who take care instead of people who are only looking for not get penaltys after each crash.
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- 1,284
- United Kingdom
I normally accept my penalties like a fair old sport - if i've earnt them, deal with them. However, recently i have been getting penalties for actions that were clearly induced by others. What makes this worse is that, for example, you get a 1 second penalty is that it is more like 3 to 4. By the time you have slowed down and got back up to speed, far more than 1 second (or any other amount of time) has gone.
The only fair way to resolve this is to abandon the silly penalty zones and just add the penalty on to your finishing time, you know, like it would be in real life - like you would expect a Real Simulator to be.
The only fair way to resolve this is to abandon the silly penalty zones and just add the penalty on to your finishing time, you know, like it would be in real life - like you would expect a Real Simulator to be.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
None of the SR ranks are full off dirty people. There's less than 10% intentional dirty drivers, yet with the failing system they can ruin the fun for many.
SR.S has less clumsiness and more intent behind dirty manoevers and gaming the system.
SR.A is cleaner since most of the people in SR.A want to get back to SR.S, people take more care to stay out of trouble.
SR.B has a lot of unintentional contact since matchmaking has the biggest pool here to put people with similar race pace together. More close racing means more chances at unintentional contact and less chance to advance out of SR.B (Perhaps easier now the SR Down for the bump from behind is gone)
SR.C is very clean, the fear for the impending DR reset is there. Less red dots after the race than the average SR.S room.
SR.D is a mixed bag, destruction derby racers mixed with people who can't control the car or don't know the track. Easy to get out of due to the big SR boost and most people crashing themselves.
SR.E takes real skill to stay in. SR gains are multiplied by about 2.5 while any dirty move gets you ghosted without consequences. Drive normal here and you get a jump straight to SR.B in a daily C race.
SR.S is usually plagued by terrible matchmaking. I've had nothing but A+/S to D/S rooms on Tokyo. Which is how people stay in SR.S, the field spreads out quickly minimizing the chances at contact. Then when there are enough people to get some closer racing, half the people in SR.S get caught with their pants down for lack of race craft. SR.B is where you have a much better chance to get close clean side by side battles. SR.S is usually a crap shoot, either a boring watch the gaps grow race or people that don't know anything else than to hot lap all race running into each other.
The system does not work. High SR means little since it's so easy to gain in a daily C, either by getting an easy pole to flag victory due to the quirks of matchmaking or by simply driving behind or watch the gaps grow during the race.
Anyway I've seen plenty SR.S rooms with A+/S and A/S drivers where no one left alive and plenty B/S rooms that had amazing close clean contact free racing. I also see the same dirty drivers turn back up in SR.S, causing havoc to drop back down again for easy victories which puts them back in SR.S. SR is a yoyo system messing with DR in the process, compromising how matchmaking should work.
It's been said before many times
- Leave penalties for the race in question
- Base SR on incidents involved in over time, including losing control etc.
- Base DR on race pace, no resets, no sandbagging, avg lap times compared to everyone else in the world. A bit like the K' Speed score, except calculated from your last 1,000 lap times during races, preferably per track.
Then you have something matchmaking can work with.
Like to ruin the race to others blocking till the end of the race ? No, thanks...
Drive through is in real racing during the race, like the actual system in slow down zones, it's like mini-drive-troughs (as race length are mini too, they have to be both scaled in the same proportion).
Yes I know, there is always some dirty drivers who act only in few occasions but intentionally dirty.
You can never get 100% of accurancy judging human groups. They can change from a race to another.
You propose a harder system and I agree ... but complaining people will complain more.
I had almost 0 dirty incidents lasts weeks in S99... I think it's as good as always with clean people if you show respect to them and you don't block them.
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- 1,174
- Phoenix, AZ
- MonyB
If you really want to know why I was on that line it's because I was fairly sure if I stayed in the slipstream I would punt the car ahead of me and I knew the car behind me was in my slipstream and *would* punt me if I stayed on that line. The white car in question came from two places back to create the carnage he did.
So I was right, you knew the white car had intentions to overtake you there and has no sense that you didn't protect yourself going a little to the left while you see he is overtaking in that manner. You were completely straight on instead of avoiding his collision.
In my opinion, while you are near a suspicious driver you have to protect yourself a little more,
his logical path was from the outside to the inside, like he did.
In real life, if we are racing near a suspicious driver and we want to keep our car intact to the end, we naturally let more margin.
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