[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

[Danoff]

Outsourcing is taking the jobs and anyone that says otherwise is in denial.

Sure. But outsourcing is beneficial to the economy. Anyone that says otherwise doesn't understand economics.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The world is increasingly moving towards specialised economies. The assumption that you can find everything you need within your own borders is naïve at best.

 

[Dotini]

We're off topic.

@Sanji Himura, will this thread live beyond the resolution of the election?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

We're off topic.

How, exactly, is the economic policy of the President-Elect off-topic in a thread on the election?

 

[Dotini]

Okay then, the meme wars have just begun; globalism is being rejected worldwide.

 

[samurai8juice]

Sure. But outsourcing is beneficial to the economy. Anyone that says otherwise doesn't understand economics.

Please tell me how outsourcing is beneficial; who in particular does it benefit? The rich? The corporations? The consumer? The average laborer? Show me economic statistics that show, not infer that outsourcing is beneficial and to whom.

 

[Jawehawk]

I don't think that any country with deep social divisions on every important issue, massive social inequality, a broken health care system and an education system that is falling behind the developed world (and parts of the developing world) can be called "great".

I wasn't the one who called them great, so I think this comment is misdirected?
I also think you're blowing it out of proportion. Their educational system might be falling behind, but this appears to be the case for many western countries. And while their health care system is flawed, I fail to see how it's outright broken considering you still get some of the best facilities and doctors in the world. You think it's broken because it's not "Free" (tax paid)? And what inequality are you thinking of in particular? Between rich and poor, in which case I do somewhat agree, in the sense that the rich have much better access to good education and so on.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Outsourcing is taking the jobs and anyone that says otherwise is in denial. The biggest indcator is the engineering industry anyone that disagrees with that needs to look at the tech industry.

If you're saying the US has a surplus in high-skilled/high educated tech workers and companies are outsourcing simply because it's cheaper to get foreign CS majors, then you're just wrong. There's a huge shortage in CS. When I was recruiting and building a company in Atlanta and NYC, we couldn't get any local people, all of them already employed at the big boys. Even when recruiting straight out of college we had to compete with the big players. In the end we had to outsource or not expand at all.

Now low-skilled workers on the other hand....but they have more urgent things to worry about in the upcoming 5-10 years.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Okay then, the meme wars have just begun; globalism is being rejected worldwide.

I find it funny the way the media is trying to make it look like Trump is up against the elite and he is the little guy that represents the common man and woman.

He is the non-elite that used to own The Plaza Hotel (To his credit, he did show Kevin the way!) and resides in one of his many Trump Towers. Now that he's moving to The White House, his net worth happens to be more than all previous Presidents that resided there combined.

 

[huskeR32]

Obama made good on a lot of his campaign promises and history will credit him with numerous achievements, but he failed to right the sinking ship called the middle class, he failed to revive the stagnant economy, stagnant growth. This election was not about Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, it was about rebuking the last 8 years of an Obama Presidency that did little to aid the working class voters who have watched their salary stay the same while their healthcare and living costs increased each year. It was a sharp rebuke of the cronyism of Washington DC and it's failures to everyone outside the 1%. That is what this election was really about. Now the house and senate are Red too.....if that's not a complete rejection of the Democratic and progressive principles and movement that led this country by the nose for the last eight years, then I don't know what is.

Blaming all of the failures of the last six years on Obama, and laying none of it on the shamefully obstructionist Congress we've been saddled with, is just more of the same binary thinking that has broken American politics.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Please tell me how outsourcing is beneficial; who in particular does it benefit? The rich? The corporations? The consumer? The average laborer? Show me economic statistics that show, not infer that outsourcing is beneficial and to whom.

Outsourcing allows for economic specialisation.

Do you know why Japanese consumer electronics have dominated the market for years? It's because the Japanese recognised that they had limited mineral wealth or arable land, and so built their economy around the production of consumer electronics. They used what resources they had - their labour force in particular - and focused their efforts on developing expertise in the area.

Now, for an emerging economy, trying to compete with the Japanese is a very bad idea. The Japanese have a massive head-start and closing that gap would mean spending massive amounts of resources with no promise or guarantee that you will ever be able to catch up. The idea of manufacturing your own consumer electronics might sound nice, but at the end of the day, consumers will buy the product that they feel is best, which is probably going to be the Japanese product. You can slap a tarriff on them to encourage consumers to buy the product, and you may get some success, buy you're still wasting resources on what is essentially a vanity project.

A better use of your resources would be to identify the areas that you're strong in, and build the economy around that. Japan has an excellent manufacturing sector, but they don't have any mineral resources - so the obvious solution is to provide the Japanese with what they need while they make what you need. That opens the door to a trade partnership where you can start consolidating your economy by getting access to knowledge and expertise.

The problem with Trump's protectionist stance is that he is assuming that America already has all of the highly-skilled workers that he needs to sustain and expand the economy within America, and that corporations are moving jobs offshore to protect their bottom line. It's a form of economic isolation and completely impractical because it willing gives up on the opportunity to access knowledge and expertise while limiting the economy to the second-best alternative. If he goes ahead with it, Trump will likely wind up with an economy focused on propping up individual sectors that, over the long term, will most probably see the entire economy go into stagflation.

Outsourcing works when you structure your economy to focus on the areas that you are strongest in and use outsourcing to complement this.

 

[DDastardly00]

Today is a day for tremendous optimism or pessimism depending on which candidate you supported.

 

[DK]

I'll repeat what I've said in the Infield - I'll believe his "drain the swamp" stuff when the GOP stops giving in to Big Oil.

I'll give props to him on at least one thing - his VP pick must be the greatest deterrent to any would-be assassin. I'm surprised Pence didn't force his wife to change her name to Ofmike.

 

[Johnnypenso]

How, exactly, is the economic policy of the President-Elect off-topic in a thread on the election?

If memory serves, many threads that are based on a single event, get closed once the event passes or fails to materialize. The title of this thread should probably change to President Elect and Leader of the Free World, Donald Trump or something along those lines.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I believe that men and women should receive equal pay for the same job. Because my having a penis doesn't make me any better at my job than my co-workers who don't have one.


How exactly is the opposite - segregating society through economics - "treating people as equal individuals"?


Yeah, most American beers that I have tried taste like crap. It's because breweries add chemicals to accelerate the fermentation process; the more they produce, the more they can sell. Who cares if it tastes bad? Go into any bar in another country, and you'll struggle to find American beer because the people who know how to make beer don't actually consider it to be beer.

Take it to the human right's thread where it's more appropriate.

In Russia you get 100% better education, that is probably a fact. Government violation and police brutality seems about the same in both countries. But I think you have more freedom in Russia than in USA. In Russia you can freely and aimlessly walk with out getting on the "polices radar" so to speak. Do not think that Russia is like when it was soviet, it is about the same as in Europe nowadays.

...I'm not quite sure you know how facts work. There is no such thing as probably fact, there is such thing as circumstantial evidence that leads to the probability of something being true however it's not to be seen as fact. So which are you getting at? I wasn't aware that those who are homosexual were enjoying their lives in Russia...especially when their own government refuses on violent grounds to recognize such people. But please go on.

...I'm half black and half Hispanic in a state where the Sheriff is known to love chasing out latinos, and in a country where police want to shoot my other half. And I walk around all the time and even get a casual nice wave from a cop every time I see one. Please tell me more about what you do not know. Tell me more about why you and others wish to flood the thread and tout inane crap about my country just cause you caught the freakin media in your nation from the twinkle of your eye. Tell me more, or better yet jump on the American thread or Human's right thread where it's more apt to discuss.

 

[Touring Mars]

I'll believe his "drain the swamp" stuff when the GOP stops giving in to Big Oil.

I'll believe it when Scotland qualify for a major football tournament or Hell freezes over, whichever occurs first...

 

[Pupik]

I'll repeat what I've said in the Infield - I'll believe his "drain the swamp" stuff when the GOP stops giving in to Big Oil.

I'll believe the "drain the swamp" nonsense when Trump doesn't fill it with spineless jellyfish.

If Chris Christie becomes Secretary of Transportation, may he be knocked over a bridge deck by an errant ambulance.

(Yeah, I said it...this isn't the Motorsports forum.)

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

During the NBC coverage last night/this morning, they were talking about the pattern of presidential election winners after a two-term (8 year) president. They noted that the country had been voting in the complete opposite of the incumbent, citing the differences between Bill Clinton to George W. Bush, George W. Bush to Barrack Obama and now the Obama to Trump leap. Following that pattern, they noted that they should have known the people would vote for a change.

If that is the case, then this election was won by Trump in the Primaries. Does it not make sense that any Republican would have won this election?

No any republican wouldn't have. Here is the simple premise for all to understand agree or disagree, at this point reality is here, and that is as I said last night. No one would have beat Trump other than potentially Sanders as @McLaren somewhat convinced me/reminded me of, but even that would be hard fought. No republican with RNC backing was going to win this, because Americans who voted didn't want a politician. They believed that someone out from the weeds was going to give them what they wanted. And that was quite well stated by election results for President, as Hillary lost key state after key state after key state, that poll forecasts suggested she'd easily conquer.

I've said the same thing of a pattern when Obama got elected but in reality it's silly because when you think about why these people were elected especially Obama and Trump...it's due to that outsider I'm here to save you mentality. Also NBC are going to soften the blow by saying this so they can say "we'll win in 2024 for sure!" If not sooner.

 

[Sanji Himura]

@Sanji Himura, will this thread live beyond the resolution of the election?

No. I plan to make a new thread to cover the Midterms. When it will be, however, remains up in the air. I'm thinking on how I would format the post so that I don't have to change much when it is closer to the election.

 

[DDastardly00]

Blaming all of the failures of the last six years on Obama, and laying none of it on the shamefully obstructionist Congress we've been saddled with, is just more of the same binary thinking that has broken American politic

The shamefully obstructionist congress you speak of tried their hardest block the Affordable Care Act which amounts to the largest tax increase on Americans. The blame falls squarely on Obama.

The trillion dollars in tax increases from the Affordable Care Act have the potential to hinder small business and investment, and further set back a struggling economy.

The Joint Committee on Taxation recently released a 96 page report on the tax provisions associated with Affordable Care Act. The report describes the 21 tax increases included in Obamacare, totaling $1.058 trillion – a steep increase from initial assessment. The summer 2012 estimate is nearly twice the $569 billion estimate produced at the time of the passage of the law in March 2010.

Last summer, the House Ways and Means Committee detailed the breakdown of each tax provision in a chart, which we reproduced here.
http://taxfoundation.org/blog/obamacare-tax-increases-will-impact-us-all

 

[huskeR32]

The shamefully obstructionist congress you speak of tried their hardest block the Affordable Care Act which amounts to the largest tax increase on Americans. The blame falls squarely on Obama.

1. You'll notice I said "last six years," as that was before the 2010 midterms which first handed the keys to the House to the GOP.

2. Your post mentioned several things other than healthcare, and only through blind partisan politics could somebody claim that Obama and the Dems deserve all of the blame for them.

 

[Pillo-san]

Take it to the human right's thread where it's more appropriate.


...I'm not quite sure you know how facts work. There is no such thing as probably fact, there is such thing as circumstantial evidence that leads to the probability of something being true however it's not to be seen as fact. So which are you getting at? I wasn't aware that those who are homosexual were enjoying their lives in Russia...especially when their own government refuses on violent grounds to recognize such people. But please go on.

...I'm half black and half Hispanic in a state where the Sheriff is known to love chasing out latinos, and in a country where police want to shoot my other half. And I walk around all the time and even get a casual nice wave from a cop every time I see one. Please tell me more about what you do not know. Tell me more about why you and others wish to flood the thread and tout inane crap about my country just cause you caught the freakin media in your nation from the twinkle of your eye. Tell me more, or better yet jump on the American thread or Human's right thread where it's more apt to discuss.

Because I have met both Americans and Russians and I like others here have friends that have lived because of work in both countries. Iknow that Russia is a hard place to live in if you are Gay but it seems as that USA especially in the south is not that far off. Russia is about the same as USA. Only an American would try to say that it is the best country to live in, when it is almost as bad as Russia and in some areas actually worse.

 

[Parker]

Because I have met both Americans and Russians and I like others here have friends that have lived because of work in both countries. Iknow that Russia is a hard place to live for if you are Gay but it seems as that USA especially the south is not that far off. Russia is about the same as USA. Only an American would try to say that it is the best country to live in, when it is almost as bad as Russia and in some areas actually worse.

Just because you keep repeating something doesn't mean you're right.

 

[Joel]

I don't get the idea that people voting for Jill Stein gave the election to Trump. I mean yeah Clinton lost Michigan by 13k votes and Stein got 50k, but you can't ignore that Johnson also got 173k and IMO that overlaps more with Trump than Clinton. He got 3-10% of the vote in most states, and a lot of states won by Clinton were by 3-10%. New Mexico, she won by 8.3% and Johnson got 9.3%. She won Minnesota by 1.2% and Johnson got 3.9%. Colorado she won by 2.1% while Johnson took 4.9%.

Without Johnson running Trump may well have won MN, NM, and CO. I mean, New Hampshire was decided by less than 1500 votes and Johnson got 30000. I don't think Trump and Johnson supporters fully overlap and I think a lot of his voters would probably abstain before voting for Clinton or Trump, but I think Johnson probably takes more potential voters from Trump as the anti-establishment conservative than he would from Clinton and it may have been the difference in close races like NH and MN.

 

[PeterJB]

Because I have met both Americans and Russians and I like others here have friends that have lived because of work in both countries. Iknow that Russia is a hard place to live in if you are Gay but it seems as that USA especially in the south is not that far off. Russia is about the same as USA. Only an American would try to say that it is the best country to live in, when it is almost as bad as Russia and in some areas actually worse.

Even ignoring social issues, Russia falls way behind on economic strength, infrastructure, medical care, sanitation, crime and safety, and quality of life in general.

 

[Pillo-san]

Just because you keep repeating something doesn't mean you're right.

But I am, Russia is/was using the same educational system as I am brought up with.
Even if the educational system in Russia is more ralaxed now as everywhere else in Europe with lack of respect for teachers and such it kicks the American educational system in the butt .

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think that probably just goes to show that most of the talk was just that, and that in reality people were more than happy to vote for one of the two.

Or everyone just forgot you can vote for someone else.

Nope because talking to people @Danoff's post comes to mind. Or better yet posts on here where people feel this is a damn school election. And you don't vote Bertha the pig nosed, somewhat heavy set girl who actually has plans to make your stay at the University worth it. Nah you want to vote in the pretty blonde, or the pseudo savvy business student, cause let's be honest they got the most exposure time and Bertha is just not that nice to look at. In other words since they were mocked up as the best, shown the most and given the idea that you have to vote for one or you as a voter don't win...that's why people didn't.

All of it is stupid, say it with me those who voted this way "I will vote based on my needs and who represents me, not what the pundits tell me I need"

Because I have met both Americans and Russians and I like others here have friends that have lived because of work in both countries. Iknow that Russia is a hard place to live in if you are Gay but it seems as that USA especially in the south is not that far off. Russia is about the same as USA. Only an American would try to say that it is the best country to live in, when it is almost as bad as Russia and in some areas actually worse.

Have you been to the South...? Cause last time I checked the State government wasn't using national guard or mass police units to arrest and potentially kill homosexuals. Perhaps we need a big event like the winter Olympics to bring that out...?

The fact that gay marriage is legalized shows far more progress in humanity here than there, end of story. What American said it was the best country to live in? Now you're being obtuse on a ignorant or troll like level, I'm sure your next post will clear it up. But let me save the rest of the thread and forum the trouble. All one would have to do is read your posts in the Conspiracy thread to see just how out of touch you can be.

 

[DDastardly00]

1. You'll notice I said "last six years," as that was before the 2010 midterms which first handed the keys to the House to the GOP.

2. Your post mentioned several things other than healthcare, and only through blind partisan politics could somebody claim that Obama and the Dems deserve all of the blame for them.

Don't change the subject. No Republicans voted for ACA, none. Even your failed champion, Hillary Clinton admitted ACA is a disaster. It stands as one of the largest tax increases on the working middle class families and small businesses over the last two decades. The blame falls squarely on Obama.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't get the idea that people voting for Jill Stein gave the election to Trump. I mean yeah Clinton lost Michigan by 13k votes and Stein got 50k, but you can't ignore that Johnson also got 173k and IMO that overlaps more with Trump than Clinton. He got 3-10% of the vote in most states, and a lot of states won by Clinton were by 3-10%. New Mexico, she won by 8.3% and Johnson got 9.3%. She won Minnesota by 1.2% and Johnson got 3.9%. Colorado she won by 2.1% while Johnson took 4.9%.

Without Johnson running Trump may well have won MN, NM, and CO. I mean, New Hampshire was decided by less than 1500 votes and Johnson got 30000. I don't think Trump and Johnson supporters fully overlap and I think a lot of his voters would probably abstain before voting for Clinton or Trump, but I think Johnson probably takes more potential voters from Trump as the anti-establishment conservative than he would from Clinton and it may have been the difference in close races like NH and MN.

Which is a great democratic shame when you actually have a sitting President and other people in the Democratic Party making claims that a vote for anyone but Hillary was a vote for Trump

Ironically, and I'm sure not your intent from your previous posts, Breitbart did an article on it with less popularity than the dems on how a vote for anyone else but Trump was a vote for Hillary. So the numbers seem to indicate that is a possibility, but let's be honest the same magnitude of severity is dealt to both main ticket candidates. Me not voting either is the same net loss, and to try and quantify that one way or the other (not you but the establishment) is the great democratic shame. It deprives a country of critical thought and progress in an area that has long needed it.

 

[Danoff]

Please tell me how outsourcing is beneficial; who in particular does it benefit? The rich? The corporations? The consumer? The average laborer? Show me economic statistics that show, not infer that outsourcing is beneficial and to whom.

Everyone. Outsourcing means you send dollars (worthless pieces of paper) overseas in exchange for tangible goods and services. The only way they get anything in return is to buy something with those dollars (ultimately from the US, if the dollars stay in circulation outside of the US, the US never effectively pays for what it got). In general, you want to run as a large a trade deficit as possible (ship worthless pieces of paper out of circulation in your country in exchange for goods and services).

When cheap labor and materials are available overseas and can be imported, your economy has to restructure (which it does constantly, and seamlessly, and not always in every micro instance does it do it painlessly). The only way for your economy to stay viable is to continue restructuring, otherwise you will grow in standing of living and in technology far slower than the rest of the world which is taking advantage of specialization. We do this all the time in the US. A great example of restructuring has taken place in one of our largest export areas, entertainment. Where we make far more content and spend far less money on production costs, advertising, and delivery of that content. As a result, there are more content generation jobs now and fewer production and delivery jobs - which is beneficial to quality of life and economic growth in general.

In short, if China can make stuff for less money than we can, we get the stuff for less, and can turn around do do other stuff super great. Our economy grows, and our standard of living rises. This is basically economics, and it's why you're not plowing a field or milking a cow right now.