Presidential Election: 2012

  • Thread starter Omnis
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Whether you consider it a source or a goldfish doesn't really make any difference.
Actually, if you want people to treat your information as holding any value in a debate, it kinda does. You're basically saying "my information is legit because I said so," and that doesn't fly. But since you ignored Joey when he pointed that out, I expect you'll ignore me as well and continue to post it as if it changes anything.

And I never claimed to be a reporter, however that makes no difference whatsoever in what I stated.
This also does, particularly with the way you are using the information you are supposedly privy to. You are saying your information holds value, that you yourself are a credible source of information. And just who are you, exactly, to make that decision?
 
To say US missiles hitting a perceived enemy, protecting civilians, is not being involved is rather delusional.
But your original statement - which you've suggested we all review - stated that there was a war and the US was involved in it.

The US was never involved in a war in Libya, just as the US was never involved in a war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Bosnia, the Persian Gulf, Vietnam, or Korea, et al.

Wrap your head around that one.
 
Actually, if you want people to treat your information as holding any value in a debate, it kinda does. You're basically saying "my information is legit because I said so," and that doesn't fly. But since you ignored Joey when he pointed that out, I expect you'll ignore me as well and continue to post it as if it changes anything.

Believe whatever you want. We all have that right. I choose to believe the Vet's that have looked me in the eyes and told me their stories. If you are that distrusting of my information and public debate, maybe a blog without public responses would be a more comfortable for you. Short of posting their private info, which i would never do in any situation including a court of law, there seems to be no standard that satisfies your criteria as a source.

This also does, particularly with the way you are using the information you are supposedly privy to. You are saying your information holds value, that you yourself are a credible source of information. And just who are you, exactly, to make that decision?

Any reason not to believe what I say? Have I lied to you or anyone in the past or misrepresented myself in any way? Have you ever even heard accusations of such? No??? Well then, I am just as credible as you or anyone else on the internet that meets these standards. Anonymity is just part of the E-experience. :)
 
Ya idk how to prove it any more without having to do tons of research just to prove my point. All my info came from the news and various reports etc over the years I'm never going to find all the videos and research I have read. I would have thought that years ago when Bush said it was all a lie about Iraq having bombs on the news you would have heard of by now and a video of an actual solider who was there and telling you the truth somehow isn't creditable enough, but whatever. Keep believing what the government tells you and never question anything. We all know the smartest people just listen and never think hey this seems strange ever.

This is getting too much into a debate over nothing tho. Debates are always just people trying to win what there saying not listening to what is right from each side. The only thing I am saying is I think Obama should of pulled out all the troops within the first 6months. That gives him more than enough time to fix a tiny bit and slowly get everyone home without any major problems. I personally don't see literally one reason on why he didn't do this, but instead left them there for years later and worse continued to send more people over. Please tell me on why you think this was ok.
 
I'd say we fall safely into both definitions.

The US's actions in Iraq don't fall under either of those. We declared Saddam an enemy of the US and therefore we attacked. While it might not have been under the best intentions, we still followed the rules of war. If we hadn't the major players in the world would have said something.

Yes. A new president is not kept in the dark until they take office. Privy is given to them ahead of time so that they can competently take charge on day 1.

Right a new president isn't kept in the dark, a president elect is. There is no way they would reveal all of the nation's secrets and affairs to someone just elected. That's what the first weeks of presidency are for, basically a giant orientation to what makes America work.

Or maybe just drill here at home in the vast wildernesses of Alaska or offshore or wherever. The abundance of oil resources is by no means limited to the Middle East, despite our tendency to play it off as though it were.

Ya offshore drilling really works well, maybe you should talk to those who live on the Gulf Coast. But either way the oil infrastructure is already built in the Middle East and we still rely on them. Even if we were to build here at home it would still take several years to increase our production. We also have to abide by OPEC, so we have a major interest in the Middle East.

Whatever god it is doesn't concern me and if these people believe so strongly in the omnipotence of said god or gods than they have nothing to fear. Surely their savior can take care of their holy sites on his/her own.

OK it doesn't concern you, that doesn't mean it isn't a huge concern to the American people and politicians. The country, obviously, does not revolve around you or your beliefs.

I'm not religious myself but I still understand the importance of keeping religious interests safe.

This is a source, just as any interviewer will use the person interviewed as a source. If I need first hand information on something and I interview someone who was there firsthand, that becomes a source, and is citable in any college paper or news publication. If you were hoping for name, rank, and serial number, you are just out of luck.

Interviewers tend to document their source and get confirmation on facts, if you report the wrong thing you are ran through the wringer by other media outlets. It's important to fact check and fact check often, anyone who's ever had any teaching involving journalism knows this.

Your source is no more valid then if I just made something up off the top of my head. It just turns into a giant "he said" "she said" cluster and has no real bearing on whats going on as a whole. You need to interview hundreds if not thousands of soldiers to get something more accurate and to account for bias. Just as my handful of people I've talked to means nothing in the grand scheme of thing either.

Ya idk how to prove it any more without having to do tons of research just to prove my point. All my info came from the news and various reports etc over the years I'm never going to find all the videos and research I have read. I would have thought that years ago when Bush said it was all a lie about Iraq having bombs on the news you would have heard of by now and a video of an actual solider who was there and telling you the truth somehow isn't creditable enough, but whatever. Keep believing what the government tells you and never question anything. We all know the smartest people just listen and never think hey this seems strange ever.

IDK = I don't know, use it.

You made a point, you are expected to give sources. I'm sure you could spend 10 minutes on Google and find something to support your point, even if it's not the most compelling piece of evidence.

Oh, and I question the government all the time, I agree with very little that goes on in America and what it stands for. All you have to do is look at my other posts in the Opinion forum.

This is getting too much into a debate over nothing tho. Debates are always just people trying to win what there saying not listening to what is right from each side. The only thing I am saying is I think Obama should of pulled out all the troops within the first 6months. That gives him more than enough time to fix a tiny bit and slowly get everyone home without any major problems. I personally don't see literally one reason on why he didn't do this, but instead left them there for years later and worse continued to send more people over. Please tell me on why you think this was ok.

I've explained several times already why I believe he left them in for longer than 6 months after taking office. It's not that easy to move out of a war zone, especially a war zone the country created. Just the logistics of it would have taken more than 6 months. Do I think Obama could have been quicker about it? Yes, probably within two after taking office he could have had everything figured out to bring the troops home. Although this is only based on the information we know, we have know idea what else was going on that required military attention.
 
I choose to believe the Vet's that have looked me in the eyes and told me their stories.
Good for you.

👍

Just don't expect anyone else to care when you attempt to use what basically amounts to "I heard someone say this once" as proof in a debate against others to further what basically amounts to a conspiracy theory.


If you are that distrusting of my information and public debate, maybe a blog without public responses would be a more comfortable for you. Short of posting their private info, which i would never do in any situation including a court of law, there seems to be no standard that satisfies your criteria as a source.
:lol:

It's very easy for me to trust a source. Really, all they have to do is prove they are credible. You haven't even attempted to do that, simply repeating yourself until you are blue in the face and misusing words to cover your backside.
And no, painting me as some wild-eyed paranoiac isn't actually proving that you are credible on this matter anymore than when a Loose Change nutjob does the same thing about 9/11.


Any reason not to believe what I say? Have I lied to you or anyone in the past or misrepresented myself in any way? Have you ever even heard accusations of such? No??? Well then, I am just as credible as you or anyone else on the internet that meets these standards. Anonymity is just part of the E-experience. :)
Here's an experiment for you: I call up some of my buddies from high school and ask them how their tours of duty went.


If they say it was the best thing they'd ever done (which Joey has several times for people he knows and you continue to ignore), does that mean you are full of crap?
Or, if I lie and say that was the best thing they'd ever done, does that still mean that you are full of crap? Because as far as you know, I'm telling the truth regardless.

Or does it simply mean that asking one dude what he saw while overseas doesn't mean anything for the other hundreds of thousands of soldiers who are overseas?


Ya idk how to prove it any more without having to do tons of research just to prove my point.
Then don't bother saying it in the first place if you don't want to bother backing it up.

Keep believing what the government tells you and never question anything.
:lol:


The funny thing isn't that you said this in a subforum largely frequented by libertarians. The funny thing isn't that you said this to me. The funny thing is that you said it to Joey of all people, who spends all of his time either in this forum or in the topic about his car.




Ya offshore drilling really works well, maybe you should talk to those who live on the Gulf Coast. But either way the oil infrastructure is already built in the Middle East and we still rely on them. Even if we were to build here at home it would still take several years to increase our production. We also have to abide by OPEC, so we have a major interest in the Middle East.
He's also ignoring that all attempts to drill more in America have been consistently demonized by nearly everyone for the past 5 years or so, if not longer.
 
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Both. That's the point that I've been trying to drive home to you...

US forces under NATO control (in this case lead by a Canadian). Not the USA. The military and tactical decisions were taken by NATO, not the USA.

And you believe the amount of US involvement was not determined by the US c-n-c?

I can find any number of youtube videos that have Obama stating what he ordered and whatever else may be in question. The amount of US involvement, which was historically minimal, was dictated by ultimately one guy.

But your original statement - which you've suggested we all review - stated that there was a war and the US was involved in it.

The US was never involved in a war in Libya, just as the US was never involved in a war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Bosnia, the Persian Gulf, Vietnam, or Korea, et al.

Wrap your head around that one.
So I'll just say military conflict.
 
You can do your own research. If I hear something that seems strange or I would like to know more of it I'll ask around and search a little to learn more about it. I'm just saying all the stuff I do know about is based on facts in which I have read or heard over time. Why would i just make stuff up and post it lol. I try to only comment on things I know about. I do not know anything really on the whole NATO thing that people are talking about so I just stay out of it. This isn't a school paper or something I don't need to prove anything. You can pretend this is Ripples and believe it or not. If I do happen to read something or see something than yes I'll post it, but I haven't seen anything new lately since I started posting here except for that video which i found interesting since you never hear from the soldiers prospective. We are arguing on nothing since we clearly both are saying the same thing in that Obama should of brought home the troops a long time ago.
 
You guys do realize the troop withdrawal date coincides with the date Iraq will no longer grant immunity right? I have to question if Obama would have stayed longer otherwise.
 
So I'll just say military conflict.
I'd appreciate it if you would because it would lessen the chance for semantical confusion. Our Constitution uses the word war as a proper noun which depends on certain conditions being met, thus the word is capitalized. I feel that, as an American classifying American military actions, I should use the specific definition provided for me, rather than the more broad definition one would use in more general circumstances. But by the definition, I only get to use the word war five times.
 
You guys do realize the troop withdrawal date coincides with the date Iraq will no longer grant immunity right? I have to question if Obama would have stayed longer otherwise.
Very nice point.

You can do your own research. If I hear something that seems strange or I would like to know more of it I'll ask around and search a little to learn more about it. I'm just saying all the stuff I do know about is based on facts in which I have read or heard over time. Why would i just make stuff up and post it lol. I try to only comment on things I know about. I do not know anything really on the whole NATO thing that people are talking about so I just stay out of it. This isn't a school paper or something I don't need to prove anything. You can pretend this is Ripples and believe it or not. If I do happen to read something or see something than yes I'll post it, but I haven't seen anything new lately since I started posting here except for that video which i found interesting since you never hear from the soldiers prospective. We are arguing on nothing since we clearly both are saying the same thing in that Obama should of brought home the troops a long time ago.

I have to agree with the spirit of this response. If you want to read a comprehensive account of troop statements on their deployment, go for it. I stated to have no such thing in saying that literally no troop I have talked to has said anything positive about it. If you choose to believe that I fabricate what I admit is my own personal experiences then there's no point in even bothering. You can do that. :lol: I usually take someone at their word until I have reason not to do so, but that's just me. Had I stated that I personally interviewed EVERY person coming back from deployment that ever set foot on sand and they all said it was a horrible babymurderfest, then that would be different, but I did not. I see little point about grilling the other anonymous guy on a forum about the validity of his personal conversations. Maybe it's my circle of friends and/or I'm simply not around enough troops to find one with different conclusion, but what I stated remains true.

The oil and opec topics have also been discussed to death in this and other threads and clearly poor maintenance and cheap planning/construction lead to bad events in off shore drilling and it has been demonized recently..... but regardless, the oil is there and can be acquired without going to the other side of the world. If we decided to harvest it. Sure it takes time to switch over, but it would be time well spent and more importantly it would be investing in our own infrastructure and domestic production. I would like to see us move into guarding our own country and oil supply at home instead of guarding oil supplies on the other side of the globe at the cost of lives and billions of tax dollars.
 
I can see shmogt is coming from I've talked to my buddies that I've met through community college and the university and they all say the same thing. They served and it sucks and they don't think it was a necessary war.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
I can see shmogt is coming from I've talked to my buddies that I've met through community college and the university and they all say the same thing. They served and it sucks and they don't think it was a necessary war.

Actually no I live in Canada so I can really care less what America does and get no vote lol, but it just blows my mind every time I hear a troop on the news, YouTube, public speeches they always say the same thing. If you were a solider I'm sure you would want to protect your country and do a honorable job at it, but going to a place that was not a threat and just dicking around there for no reason is not worth these soldiers time. You have trained soldiers willing and ready to fight till the end to protect their country and this is how you treat them. By sending them around the world on false info and having them risk their lives over nothing. It's crazy.
 
I can see shmogt is coming from I've talked to my buddies that I've met through community college and the university and they all say the same thing. They served and it sucks and they don't think it was a necessary war.

I really don't see how that view would be invalid. Certainly not as opposed to something like - "I work at a security company and all my military buddies think Iraq was great training and we should be there forever cause they need us to protect them." :yuck:
 
Actually no I live in Canada so I can really care less what America does and get no vote lol, but it just blows my mind every time I hear a troop on the news, YouTube, public speeches they always say the same thing. If you were a solider I'm sure you would want to protect your country and do a honorable job at it, but going to a place that was not a threat and just dicking around there for no reason is not worth these soldiers time. You have trained soldiers willing and ready to fight till the end to protect their country and this is how you treat them. By sending them around the world on false info and having them risk their lives over nothing. It's crazy.

That's what I'm saying though, I see the video as valid as well as other troops like Pat Tilman's brother who came out and said both wars were a sham. I have friends that have served and I'm sure alot of people know some one that has served and can tell them how it was over there. However, from what I've had told to me is that they think the gov't lied and that those wars were nothing. Just like you said in your post is what I'm trying to say to you is that you tell a good amount of truth.

You guys do realize the troop withdrawal date coincides with the date Iraq will no longer grant immunity right? I have to question if Obama would have stayed longer otherwise.

Explain please!? I knew there had to be a reason especially with them wanting to extend the Afgan withdraw date.

I really don't see how that view would be invalid. Certainly not as opposed to something like - "I work at a security company and all my military buddies think Iraq was great training and we should be there forever cause they need us to protect them." :yuck:

Do you mean valid?
 
No, I'm saying that his viewpoint is easily as valid as the opposing one (that I consider ridiculous). :)

Sorry Chaos, I think I've become paranoid lately, I usually agree with you so I had to ask cause I thought you were being sarcastic toward my view. Seriously I'm quite sorry. Also I agree with you why is it so hard for many American's to believe that Soliders may actually...gee I don't know, not like getting shot at and seeing their friends get killed due to the gov't of past and present making fear mongoring lies that keep us over seas or policing the world.
 
Sorry Chaos, I think I've become paranoid lately, I usually agree with you so I had to ask cause I thought you were being sarcastic toward my view. Seriously I'm quite sorry. Also I agree with you why is it so hard for many American's to believe that Soliders may actually...gee I don't know, not like getting shot at and seeing their friends get killed due to the gov't of past and present making fear mongoring lies that keep us over seas or policing the world.

No problem sir, I was confused as well. I thought you were more towards the peacemaker type too. :)
 
Yes thank you this is what I have been saying. Bush came out and said there were no bombs meaning that original story was a lie in why they sent troops over it was on the news years ago I thought everyone had heard about that. Than all these presidential officials are on tv doing there debates and interviews talking about war issues and speaking on behalf of the troops while in fact the troops do not agree with what any of them are saying (except Ron Paul).
 
the troops do not agree with what any of them are saying (except Ron Paul).

Yes, the vast bulk (~71%) of political campaign contributions from members of the military go to the peacenik, Ron Paul.

Respectfully,
Steve
 
Explain please!? I knew there had to be a reason especially with them wanting to extend the Afgan withdraw date.

I first saw the issue a few months back on 'the news hour' a panel of 2 where discussing the possibility of long term u.s. occupation. There are many credible articles available via google, here is a quick snip and source.

For months, the U.S. and Iraq had been negotiating to keep some U.S. troops here next year. But the negotiations broke down over the question of immunity. The U.S. said for any troops to remain in Iraq, they'd have to be granted full immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts. Because such immunity was granted by Iraq's parliament before, legal experts believed that's how it needed to be done again.

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141646231/u-s-troop-immunity-a-sticking-point-in-iraq-talks
 
How come no one gives Obama credit for handling war without killing massive amounts people who shouldn't have died?
Because that still isn't peace. Or he authorized US military use against a country who never attacked the US without the going to Congress first, a step that even Bush performed.

What part of Nobel Peace Prize is awarded for authorizing military actions that don't result in the death of your troops? Which part of the Nobel Peace Prize is awarded for having some form of indirect involvement in the deaths of two notable individuals, one the leader of a nation?

Acting like you don't understand why I treated the Nobel Peace Prize as a joke, and then going on to staunchly defend Obama as taking some sort of lead role in the NATO attacks on Libya is kind of funny.

No matter how you describe what Obama has done in office, it is laughable that he has received the same award as Mother Teresa and Martin Luther King Jr.

I can find any number of youtube videos that have Obama stating what he ordered and whatever else may be in question. The amount of US involvement, which was historically minimal, was dictated by ultimately one guy.
This one?



He authorized their use (without the permission of Congress) to be used in a joint NATO effort. Last I checked, he does not instruct NATO. His involvement began when he signed the authorization and ended with that speech.

Let's put it in proper context: Like many Democrats and Republicans before him, he authorized military involvement in a country that did nothing to the US without the Congressional approval required by the Constitution. Then after he did nothing for months, other than read daily security reports on the situation, he has be given credit for overthrowing a dictator and he is likely to use that in the upcoming election.

So, yes, he did manage to get us involved in military action that did not result in the deaths of US troops. But then he had almost zero involvement too.
 
Lol ya they gave Obama the Nobel peace prize so fast. There's no way in a million years he deserved it or at least not at that point in time. What do you guys think about his health care? As far as I know it seemed like a good idea, but all the new elected people keep hating on it so bad saying its the biggest mistake. I don't live there so I can't really comment whether it's bad or good, but from what I heard its pretty much health care for all or you have the option to pay still and just get it quicker.
 
I first saw the issue a few months back on 'the news hour' a panel of 2 where discussing the possibility of long term u.s. occupation. There are many credible articles available via google, here is a quick snip and source.

For months, the U.S. and Iraq had been negotiating to keep some U.S. troops here next year. But the negotiations broke down over the question of immunity. The U.S. said for any troops to remain in Iraq, they'd have to be granted full immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts. Because such immunity was granted by Iraq's parliament before, legal experts believed that's how it needed to be done again.

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141646231/u-s-troop-immunity-a-sticking-point-in-iraq-talks

Thanks Aurora that is a great point you've made and tought me something of value I think. Good work 👍

shmogt I think I'll tell you this since you are nice poster here. The question your asking on health care will open pandora's box especially since there is a thread devoted to Health care in general. And a few of the main posters here are in heated debate on that thread...so let's not bring it here. Just wanted you to know.
 
Thanks Aurora that is a great point you've made and tought me something of value I think. Good work 👍

shmogt I think I'll tell you this since you are nice poster here. The question your asking on health care will open pandora's box especially since there is a thread devoted to Health care in general. And a few of the main posters here are in heated debate on that thread...so let's not bring it here. Just wanted you to know.

Pandora's box is correct :lol: I was unaware of the thread but I'll stay out of that one too. Personally, I agree with the idea of socialized medicine, but I also agree with the concept of socialism. I see it as a fascinating ideology that may one day become viable, but currently is not. In the mean time, I'd settle for having my 'stolen' tax dollars back to pay for my own Dr. visits. I see the Progressive and Libertarian sides working very much to the same ends but taking very different paths.
 
Because that still isn't peace. Or he authorized US military use against a country who never attacked the US without the going to Congress first, a step that even Bush performed.
Where did I ever indicate Obama should get a Nobel peace prize and for what action? I did say what he fas done is maybe not worth the Nobel peace prize...

What part of Nobel Peace Prize is awarded for authorizing military actions that don't result in the death of your troops? Which part of the Nobel Peace Prize is awarded for having some form of indirect involvement in the deaths of two notable individuals, one the leader of a nation?
Who claimed any of these things?

Acting like you don't understand why I treated the Nobel Peace Prize as a joke, and then going on to staunchly defend Obama as taking some sort of lead role in the NATO attacks on Libya is kind of funny.
:lol: Where did I ever say Obama took a lead role in NATO? He was in command, or leading, of what the US's role was... which I've repeatedly said was minimal.
No matter how you describe what Obama has done in office, it is laughable that he has received the same award as Mother Teresa and Martin Luther King Jr.
It's laughable you think I said he should get the Nobel peace prize. I simply said he deserves some credit for not getting the US stuck in another 10 year war.


He authorized their use...
You admitted it. With that authorization, that even you and famine admit, also comes the authorization of how much use of the US's military, which wasn't very much.
So, yes, he did manage to get us involved in military action that did not result in the deaths of US troops. But then he had almost zero involvement too.
You and famine admit it was because of Obama the US had some involvement in the Libyan civil war. My entire point is the US wasn't very involved. The US finally was involved, even you concede this fact, in a military conflict and other countries did most of the heavy lifting. There is only one person who gets credit for the US's minimal involvement.
 
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Is he still going on about this?

At what point are you going to 'fess up to over-reaching when you said Obama started a war and giving him credit for ending it when the sum total of his contribution was allowing a Canadian to tell his troops what to do (unconstitutionally?) and use up his missiles? The US was still not involved. NATO still used US military resources (amongst others) in peacekeeping, not warmaking.
 
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