Presidential Election: 2012

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Dapper
:lol: Why? Do you realise the how many would have no chance at a proper education?
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Why not? Think about how cheap private schools would be if they had to compete for tuition and students. The only reason that a private school today is expensive, is because they can't compete with "free" school, and going upmarket is the only way to remain profitable. There's a huge demand for education, and there would be more than enough schools to provide an affordable option.
 
Noob616
Why not? Think about how cheap private schools would be if they had to compete for tuition and students. The only reason that a private school today is expensive, is because they can't compete with "free" school, and going upmarket is the only way to remain profitable. There's a huge demand for education, and there would be more than enough schools to provide an affordable option.
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The "affordable option" would be a substandard education.
 
Dapper
Maybe! :lol: Everything could be better. The fact is that not everyone would be able to pay their bill... and then the kid doesn't get educated.
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Public education is a joke. Comparing what I learned at a private prep school versus any of the local public schools was just hilarious. I'd think many would be better off being schooled at home than in the current system.
 
Azuremen
I'd think many would be better off being schooled at home than in the current system.
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But there's also a lot of people who's parent(s) are ill-equipped to teach much of anything to their kids. There's plenty that could follow a curriculum, and help their kids. But there's some parents that would be downright lazy, offering less immediate opportunities for their kids' futures.

Single-parent families would also largely disagree. Kids with parents that are drug addicts or alcoholics might also need a system so they don't Ctrl+C their parents in between getting Ctrl+V with a backslap. I know those are issues beyond the scope of government authority, but somehow removing a public framework for the least fortunate to receive an education when in the greatest need as well...is a sad society indeed.

Inherently, I think this is a really cruel way to widen the gap between rich and poor for future generations.
 
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Dapper
Maybe! :lol: Everything could be better. The fact is that not everyone would be able to pay their bill... and then the kid doesn't get educated.
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My wife and I have found private schools in Kentucky that cost less than the per student cost paid by taxes in public schools. DC's school voucher program was paying less per student than they were for public schools and achieving better results, before the current administration nixed it. The House did just vote to reinstate it though. Note: This is not my promoting the idea of federally funded voucher programs.

I suggest you look around at what is out there at this moment before judging what would happen in a world where private institutions are even more widely available. Public schools can cost more and frequently achieve less. What happens if we stop taking those taxes from people and let them use their money more wisely? There are a number of different proposals to make this work, but the big key in all of them is that it allows for school choice.

I don't see how anyone can think that forcing children to attend a school where they are unhappy, where the overall performance is poor, and where they do not feel safe is the best idea. Public schools remove almost every chance low0income parents have of helping their kids overachieve. Short of parents that have the time and ability to tutor their children at home they get whatever they are stuck with. If they don't like something about how the school their child attends it is too bad, because there is a bloated union in the way of any kind of progress, which is then backed up by a scandalous political system. And if you can get through those two defenses you will find hollow shells of people that are more zombie than human who care more about their tenure than your child's education. God help that one teacher who does care, because I have seen nearly every decent teacher I ever had run out of their jobs because they would speak their minds about what was wrong with the system. My honors English teacher who got me two college credits, a year after I graduated was teaching in the girl's locker room. My calculus and physics teacher who fought year after year to get them to allow him to earn accreditation for AP calculus and physics classes eventually left to teach at a college level. The gifted student program head was demoted to teaching typing in the computer lab and a woman was brought in that was so horrible that every student involved dropped the program.

Pupik
But there's also a lot of people who's parent(s) are ill-equipped to teach much of anything to their kids. There's plenty that could follow a curriculum, and help their kids. But there's some parents that would be downright lazy, offering less immediate opportunities for their kids' futures.

Single-parent families would also largely disagree. Kids with parents that are drug addicts or alcoholics might also need a system so they don't Ctrl+C their parents in between getting Ctrl+V with a backslap. I know those are issues beyond the scope of government authority, but somehow removing a public framework for the least fortunate to receive an education when in the greatest need as well...is a sad society indeed.

Inherently, I think this is a really cruel way to widen the gap between rich and poor for future generations.
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I am pretty sure his comment about homeschooling was back-handed. It definitely wasn't a supportive statement for the idea.

But addressing your concerns, when a student gets stuck in school they are forced to attend that under performs, and the parents care about their child's future enough home schooling is a good option, especially in this day of distance learning education programs provided by some private schools.
 
Dapper
Maybe! :lol: Everything could be better. The fact is that not everyone would be able to pay their bill... and then the kid doesn't get educated.
Click to expand...
My wife and I have found private schools in Kentucky that cost less than the per student cost paid by taxes in public schools. DC's school voucher program was paying less per student than they were for public schools and achieving better results, before the current administration nixed it. The House did just vote to reinstate it though. Note: This is not my promoting the idea of federally funded voucher programs.

I suggest you look around at what is out there at this moment before judging what would happen in a world where private institutions are even more widely available. Public schools can cost more and frequently achieve less. What happens if we stop taking those taxes from people and let them use their money more wisely? There are a number of different proposals to make this work, but the big key in all of them is that it allows for school choice.

I don't see how anyone can think that forcing children to attend a school where they are unhappy, where the overall performance is poor, and where they do not feel safe is the best idea. Public schools remove almost every chance low0income parents have of helping their kids overachieve. Short of parents that have the time and ability to tutor their children at home they get whatever they are stuck with. If they don't like something about how the school their child attends it is too bad, because there is a bloated union in the way of any kind of progress, which is then backed up by a scandalous political system. And if you can get through those two defenses you will find hollow shells of people that are more zombie than human who care more about their tenure than your child's education. God help that one teacher who does care, because I have seen nearly every decent teacher I ever had run out of their jobs because they would speak their minds about what was wrong with the system. My honors English teacher who got me two college credits, a year after I graduated was teaching in the girl's locker room. My calculus and physics teacher who fought year after year to get them to allow him to earn accreditation for AP calculus and physics classes eventually left to teach at a college level. The gifted student program head was demoted to teaching typing in the computer lab and a woman was brought in that was so horrible that every student involved dropped the program.

Pupik
But there's also a lot of people who's parent(s) are ill-equipped to teach much of anything to their kids. There's plenty that could follow a curriculum, and help their kids. But there's some parents that would be downright lazy, offering less immediate opportunities for their kids' futures.

Single-parent families would also largely disagree. Kids with parents that are drug addicts or alcoholics might also need a system so they don't Ctrl+C their parents in between getting Ctrl+V with a backslap. I know those are issues beyond the scope of government authority, but somehow removing a public framework for the least fortunate to receive an education when in the greatest need as well...is a sad society indeed.

Inherently, I think this is a really cruel way to widen the gap between rich and poor for future generations.
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure his comment about homeschooling was back-handed. It definitely wasn't a supportive statement for the idea.

But addressing your concerns, when a student gets stuck in school they are forced to attend that under performs, and the parents care about their child's future enough home schooling is a good option, especially in this day of distance learning education programs provided by some private schools.

This goes back to my point on choice. When the current situation does not allow choice sometimes desperate measures are necessary.
 
FoolKiller
I am pretty sure his comment about homeschooling was back-handed. It definitely wasn't a supportive statement for the idea.

But addressing your concerns, when a student gets stuck in school they are forced to attend that under performs, and the parents care about their child's future enough home schooling is a good option, especially in this day of distance learning education programs provided by some private schools.
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I'm not against homeschooling at all (we've seriously given it thought), but on the other hand, I'd prefer that she is experiencing the social aspect of schoolmates (with its very obvious ups and downs) that homeschooling can't provide; conversely, not homeschooling your kid takes a away a potential bond with your child, and can add some of the negative social aspects and surrounding behavior problems which interrupt, which are part of any school with a class size greater than that of say, one student.

There's bad/worn-out teachers, and great ones as well; parents that may do a great job with teaching to the exact styles and methods they know their darling child can handle, and others who might half-ass it in terms of preparedness for final testing.

Private school is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination where we live, and generally most public schools in our area (admittedly, middle and higher-class neighborhoods) are pretty highly rated. It's like having another car payment, and it's nowhere near the tax bill's educational amount, plus whatever Federal spending thrown in, to boot. Homeschooling is a good option, but cost-benefit and social gains don't really work in its favor, and the state voucher system is like getting a rebate on a car; a nice thank you note, but it doesn't defray a significant portion of private schooling.

Public schooling isn't a public works project whereby individuals can game the system, like some people do with other types of welfare. You can't, unless you sue a school system for something that didn't really happen. Yes, there will be graft (construction and maintenance are out-sourced, which can in turn help the private sector, but there can be consequences as well) and mismanagement like most other types government-funded programs, but that usually rests on officials, rather than employees of a school system.

I just think that given what is spent in defence is ludicrous, but only because we are stretched too thin upon our planet. Before we turn this into a "think of the soldiers, you hippie" argument, nobody wants to be brave enough to aid them and prepare for their transition upon coming home and to say they care enough to bring them home safely. They just want to spout platitudes about what a bunch of demi-gods they are, but giving them no future thought to their survival and well-being when they return home. It's like nobody notices there's an elephant (not to pick on the GOP) in the phone booth, yet what would our elected officials do if the United States suffered a catastrophe like what happened in Japan? Where is that money and assistance going to come from? Sure, it sounds nice to hand anyone a tax break who helps in such a situation, but how does that prepare us for the next one? Only by having a surplus that a bunch of greedy politicans aren't allowed to go near...fat chance, of course.

I am one of those who does approve of a fairer tax system, and that means charging more to nearly everyone. Nobody wants to run on that platform, which is really the only way to attempt to undo many, many years of debt and not take away what the populace is used to. The problems due on that our flawed system seems to be only way to try to make everyone happy; nobody's seriously tried to revamp the tax system before deciding what to cut out (doing both at once reeks of cronyism). Nobody wants the smell of a socialist tag on their suit. I think our current capitalistic ways don't really favor making everyone happy, but what system does? I think the only way you can attempt too do so is either all or nothing, in terms of taxes.

Give the opportunity to have a slightly more valuable paycheck, but in turn, you've got to pay the bills for everything. Put more Federal or State control into what I do, and I'll bitch about the results. It's like dining at Golden Corral: lots of choices, but they just don't seem to taste right together when you're cooking to please millions.

To be honest, I don't have answers for that.
 
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Pupik
I'm not against homeschooling at all (we've seriously given it thought), but on the other hand, I'd prefer that she is experiencing the social aspect of schoolmates (with its very obvious ups and downs) that homeschooling can't provide; conversely, not homeschooling your kid takes a away a potential bond with your child, and can add some of the negative social aspects and surrounding behavior problems which interrupt, which are part of any school with a class size greater than that of say, one student.
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I know locally, because we have friends that home schooled due to a child having a social nervousness disorder, that they do have groups that meet for the kids to still have social interaction. I think if a parent were to do home schooling the social aspect is something they should take into consideration and around here it is clearly prepared for by groups of concerned parents.

There's bad/worn-out teachers, and great ones as well; parents that may do a great job with teaching to the exact styles and methods they know their darling child can handle, and others who might half-ass it in terms of preparedness for final testing.

Private school is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination where we live, and generally most public schools in our area (admittedly, middle and higher-class neighborhoods) are pretty highly rated. It's like having another car payment, and it's nowhere near the tax bill's educational amount, plus whatever Federal spending thrown in, to boot. Homeschooling is a good option, but cost-benefit and social gains don't really work in its favor, and the state voucher system is like getting a rebate on a car; a nice thank you note, but it doesn't defray a significant portion of private schooling.

Public schooling isn't a public works project whereby individuals can game the system, like some people do with other types of welfare. You can't, unless you sue a school system for something that didn't really happen. Yes, there will be graft (construction and maintenance are out-sourced, which can in turn help the private sector, but there can be consequences as well) and mismanagement like most other types government-funded programs, but that usually rests on officials, rather than employees of a school system.
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It is hard to discuss the intricacies of schooling since they are, at their base, a state system and so regional differences can make what I perceive vastly different than what you perceive. I know that here the teacher's union is so out of control that none of the policies that affect state employees affect them. They get their own special set of rules, benefits, and even retirement. And private and charter school rules are also greatly different from state to state. We have tons of charter schools and then I hear stories about New York arguing over any. And as for vouchers, there is no such thing in my state, but one of our school districts did wind up in the Supreme Court over busing issues.
 
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My college friends are all 18 year olds that have either been homeschooled or sent to academies at some point in their lives. A few of them went to normal highschool but they enrolled as freshmen early. So we're all graduating with our associates degrees but theyre just now graduating from HS too. And theyre all better friends than any that I had in school. In fact, the one that youd soonest consider ultra sheltered and socially deprived is the one that is the most well adjusted, grown-up, and outgoing. When you have a family that actually does their social duty, they do a much better job producing fine people.
 
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Sorry to all for my posts before.
I don't know much regarding politics, I don't think I do. I only know for some stuff what I wish the gov would do or not do. And for some I may have an opinion but that's without knowing much. Like if I only know the basics or on the surface stuff.

If I vote for someone I don't care if he is dem or repub. I only know I'll vote for him if I like his record and what he wants to do or not do. Doesn't matter what whatever he's on.
 
FoolKiller
I suggest you look around at what is out there at this moment before judging what would happen in a world where private institutions are even more widely available.
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No matter the amount of looking I do there would be families who couldn't afford their child's schooling. Even with free schooling, some kids get free food while at school, meaning some families can't afford to feed their children while getting free schooling.
 
Dapper
No matter the amount of looking I do there would be families who couldn't afford their child's schooling. Even with free schooling, some kids get free food while at school, meaning some families can't afford to feed their children while getting free schooling.
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Free? My utility bills beg to differ, which is a bigger kick, as my child is not in public school.

But if you actually look around at the actual proposals there isn't a privatization plan that just abandons children. In fact, improvements would be made if schools had to compete for dollars via vouchers. Fund it publicly, but create private-like competition. Then there is also the tax credit ideas. And if you think that some sort of non-profit group wouldn't work to provide a school or some sort of federal program designed to fund families below a certain income you're crazy. Heck, all those ideas would save money, encourage schools to improve, and benefit everyone as a whole.

But whatever happens, the one change that needs to happen is the federal government needs to get out of schooling and shutter the education department.
 
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Dapper
Yeah, just like free shipping. :lol: Despite that, my point still stands.
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As does the rest of mine.

Plus, stories like this aren't hard to find.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/prek/article976855.ece

It seems rather simple to make kids more educated so when they grow up they pay more taxes, but maybe that is just me.
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But they aren't making more kids educated. And that story doesn't change the constitutional issues I raise. Should I be paying for Florida schools? And how does a one time lump sum that still doesn't cover everything help in the long run?

How many billions have been thrown at public schools with no improvement? Is it a dollar issue? If so, how much does it take to make them actually perform as well as private? They already cost more per student, on average, than private schools. They are a failing system, no matter how much money we give them.

Only in government would you look at a system that is failing to do its job and give it more money. Anywhere else you tell them to fix it or get out.
 
More kids aren't getting educated? Well, duh. They are all already being educated. The teachers are getting paid, so all the kids are getting a better quality education. In terms of you paying for Florida schools, why wouldn't you want Florida's kids educated?
 
Dapper
More kids aren't getting educated? Well, duh. They are all already being educated.
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So performance was as high as it could get with 100% graduation rates?

The schools are struggling and performance is low, so did the one-time bump of money fix that? No, if you read the article you posted it didn't even fix the problem for that single year.

The teachers are getting paid, so all the kids are getting a better quality education.
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But not as good as can be done for less money in private systems.

You keep ducking this. If public schools are a good investment why do we keep hearing about how they are performing poorly and need more money? And why is it that with more money they still perform the same as before? And so why do we keep giving them more money when they prove repeatedly that it doesn't do any good?

In terms of you paying for Florida schools, why wouldn't you want Florida's kids educated?
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Read my signature quote.

But if you fail to see the constitutional and ethical implications of the stimulus and federal school funding, and want it from an economic perspective; you just claimed that the kids are being educated anyway, so why should my money (technically my daughter's or my grandchildren's money) be spent on them? Or why should we be digging ourselves farther into debt? What good will that education be with a trashed economy and a worthless dollar?



Do you really think our public schools in this country are doing a good job?
Do you think that federally funding schools without constitutional grounds is a good thing?
Are you happy to pay for school systems all over the country, good or bad?
Do you think funding schools with debt money is a good idea?
 
Dapper
Read mine.

.
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Being forced to pay for somebody else equates to you losing in order for them to win.

You cannot make everybody win. Fact is, there are winners and there are losers. The only way to make the game fair is to let everybody be free to try to win if they darn well feel like trying.
 
Why exactly is Hannity making Gary Johnson look like a complete idiot right now? He can't even have a decent debate. Gary is so correct in his libertarian views on illegal drugs that Hannity is forced to deny him speech by constantly interrupting him.

While Johnson won't be the one I vote for, on this particular issue he is correct, and Hannity is the idiot. Well, Hannity is always an idiot, but whatever.

EDIT: Tom Morello is an idiot. What the hell does he have to do with anything?
 
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I have noticed that some conservative commentators/websites are boosting Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann as potential candidates. I am just wondering, does anyone take either of those two seriously as contenders for the GOP nomination?

Personally, I don't think either is a serious contender and I think their flirtations for running for President is just a plea for attention, which I personally think is all they really are interested in, and of course, they don't have nearly enough qualifications. (I could go on, such as how as a Republican, they make me look ignorant since for some reason they are frequently trotted out as the face of the party, but I digress). So anyways, I am just wondering if anyone here seriously thinks Bachmann/Palin actually are going to run and have a shot, or do you think like me and believe they have no chance and they just want attention?
 
No way man. Katie Couric got Sarah Palin real good. Toeing the party line for McCain destroyed her. She is just too gosh darn dontcha know to be President. Only soccer moms like her, and they don't know any better.

Bachmann is also just a congresswoman. She has no intellectual bearing like Ron Paul has.
 
That is a good point that I forgot to mention in my post: Palin killed any chances John McCain had of getting elected after the initial intrigue over her wore off. And really, her reality show and poor response to the criticism surrounding her after the Gabby Giffords shooting (She simply put on her whole "Poor me, the left is out to get me again" act she does every time she is criticized) ended her 15 minutes of fame and any chances she had of being taken seriously as a politician. She is now simply a right-wing figure and will soon fade away to be no more than a minor footnote in American political history.

As for Bachmann, she is basically the new Palin and is just too unqualified and partisan to go anywhere in the election and I imagine her time in the limelight is going to last no longer than Palin's. Really, I think the moderates and general public are thoroughly exasperated with America's current political polarization and the "Us vs. Them" mentality of the two parties. That also may explain why many of the radical political media figures with this mentality have been dropping like flies lately; Olbermann, Palin, Beck and now Trump have had the cameras turned away from them and I imagine even more will fall in the coming months.
 

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