Presidential Election: 2012

[Famine]

Per Anonymous

[Citation needed]

And going to a Klan even might not make you a klansman, but it would really make me question your character.

Can Klansmen not go to non-Klan events without turning them into Klan events? If Don Black picked his kids up from school, would it be a Klan School Run?

That picture even looks like a photo of Ron Paul than a guy sneaked into the background of - he doesn't even look like he belongs there. Incidentally, I once had a photo taken with Craig Charles - I'm pretty sure I'm not an actor.


This line from that article was excellent:

Ron Paul’s racist politics and affiliations are already well known for being viciously anti-immigrant, anti-abortion and against gay marriage

In the real world, Ron Paul's politics are well-known for being rabidly anti-Federal-abortion and against Federal gay marriage. Not wanting the government to be involved in abortion and gay marriage because he doesn't think it's in their mandate is quite different to being against abortion and gay marriage.

But who needs facts when you can spew bile?

 

[Omnis]

Per Anonymous, Paul has dealt with the AP3, which is a white supremacy politcal party. And going to a Klan even might not make you a klansman, but it would really make me question your character.

It wasn't a klan event. I've been over this before. It was the post-debate assembly and speech at the Metro Cafe on the Las Olas Riverfront. Tugboat captain was there, Florida Gators were there, Values Voters christian conservatives were there, congressional candidates were there, young teens were there, I was there. Oh, and some white supremacist asshole was there too.

 

[Joey D]

[Citation needed]

I linked an article in my post? And I really thought the story was well known?

Can Klansmen not go to non-Klan events without turning them into Klan events? If Don Black picked his kids up from school, would it be a Klan School Run?

That picture even looks like a photo of Ron Paul than a guy sneaked into the background of - he doesn't even look like he belongs there. Incidentally, I once had a photo taken with Craig Charles - I'm pretty sure I'm not an actor.

Do you honestly think there is no difference between a school and a KKK event?

But who needs facts when you can spew bile?

Nothing has been present as fact, hence why I've said words like "apparently" and "Per Anonymous".

It wasn't a klan event. I've been over this before. It was the post-debate assembly and speech at the Metro Cafe on the Las Olas Riverfront. Tugboat captain was there, Florida Gators were there, Values Voters christian conservatives were there, congressional candidates were there, young teens were there, I was there. Oh, and some white supremacist asshole was there too.

I didn't say it was a Klan event, you just asked if going to a Klan event made you a Klansmen? I wasn't aware the "I" meant Ron Paul in your statement.

What I did say though is that Anonymous has brought to light that Ron Paul apparently has connections with the AP3, a white supremacy political party.

 

[Omnis]

Does this look like a KKK event to you?

Get real, bro.

 

[Joey D]

Get real, bro.

Really?

I'm not saying Ron Paul is a Klansman, I'm saying the the hacker group Anonymous claims that he has received support from white supremacy groups.

 

[Omnis]

What's the point? That's about as shocking as reporting that black panthers have supported Barack Obama. Or that KKK Grand Master Wizard Guy voted for McCain.

 

[Joey D]

What's the point? That's about as shocking as reporting that black panthers have supported Barack Obama. Or that KKK Grand Master Wizard Guy voted for McCain.

It was a relevant reply to a comment from MazdaPrice...

But how are we going to know who the Klan are endorsing? We need 'White Americans' for someone...

Based on that statement, I said apparently Ron Paul with the recent Anon uncoverings.

I mean why bring up anything on race, racism or supremacy at all when talking about politics? My comment was just following the line of discussion.

 

[Liquid]

It was a relevant reply to a comment from MazdaPrice...

I was just being trying to be humourous and made a parallel to the 'Black Americans for...' thing. KKK was the first group when I thought of 'White Americans for...'.

It raises a good point though; whether being associated with one group means everything you do boils down to that group, or whether being spotted next to someone means you and them have the same interests.

A likes B
A likes C

Therefore:

C likes B too. But we don't even know if C likes A...

It wasn't supposed to be taken seriously, but it has spawned an interesting debate.

Continue.

 

[Touring Mars]

It's one thing to gain the unwelcome endorsement of a racist organisation, but it's a different matter when a presidential candidate actively pursues votes on the basis of race - which I believe was the point that FoolKiller was making with the video.

 

[Joey D]

It raises a good point though; whether being associated with one group means everything you do boils down to that group, or whether being spotted next to someone means you and them have the same interests.

It's going to matter if you are a politician, if you are even remotely connected to a negative group it will come back to bite you. People will question your intentions, whether they are valid or not, if they see that you are in anyway connected to these groups.

 

[Dapper]

Imagine Paul and Ahmadinejad discussing nukes likes this.

 

[Joey D]

Video

Smoking while conducting an interview and a weirdly dressed man. Oh, the late 80's early 90's,

 

[Touring Mars]

Imagine Paul and Ahmadinejad discussing nukes likes this.

But they haven't got anything to argue about

 

[Dapper]

But they haven't got anything to argue about

Discuss, not argue. They are on the same side... they would be on the stage together if they were on that show. Paul and Ahmadinejad would be yelling at the rest of the world like Paul was yelling at that audience.

 

[Famine]

I linked an article in my post? And I really thought the story was well known?

I'm not saying Ron Paul is a Klansman, I'm saying the the hacker group Anonymous claims that he has received support from white supremacy groups.

And the article shows it's Anonymous... how? It doesn't. Along with stating Ron Paul's politics just flat out wrong, the author says "Anonymous say this" without any reference. Thus [Citation Needed]

It seems to be a very poorly-researched* article created just to perpetuate the Ron Paul Letters story from long ago and the author has conjured up an Anonymous project in lieu of actual evidence.

It's funny that Anonymous's legacy may well be that they can be cited before making any libellous claim you want to allow trash-journos to get away with tripe like this.

Do you honestly think there is no difference between a school and a KKK event?

A guy who's a Klansman (apparently) turned up at a Ron Paul event that Omnis was at. Omnis - and Ron Paul - didn't go to a Klan event.


* If at all

 

[Danoff]

This is impressive? Foreign oil usage was declining before Obama took office and it continued? Interestingly enough, US oil consumption looks just like that, declining in 2007 and continuing to decline.

Edit:

Another fun note. Canada is the largest supplier of foreign oil to the US, next is Mexico (it's almost like neighboring countries are more convenient). Between the two of them they account for roughly half of US oil imports (the error bars indicate that it could be more than half, or less than 40%). So we care about this?

 

[Joey D]

And the article shows it's Anonymous... how? It doesn't. Along with stating Ron Paul's politics just flat out wrong, the author says "Anonymous say this" without any reference. Thus [Citation Needed]

It seems to be a very poorly-researched* article created just to perpetuate the Ron Paul Letters story from long ago and the author has conjured up an Anonymous project in lieu of actual evidence.

It's funny that Anonymous's legacy may well be that they can be cited before making any libellous claim you want to allow trash-journos to get away with tripe like this.[/b]

The article quotes Anonymous's press release, but here's a mirror of what Anon posted on the AP3's website when it was hacked:

http://zone-h.org/mirror/id/16824726

This is why I presented it as Anonymous's finding on the situation, they are claiming based on what they found that Ron Paul is supported by AP3, a white supremacist political party.

A guy who's a Klansman (apparently) turned up at a Ron Paul event that Omnis was at. Omnis - and Ron Paul - didn't go to a Klan event.

I didn't say Ron Paul or Omnis went to a Klan event. I said if one were to go to a Klan event, I would question one's character. Paul or Omnis didn't attend a Klan event, therefore their character isn't brought into question on this instance.

If Paul did in fact attend a Klan event, not the Paul/Omnis event, then I would question his character or anyone else that attended.

Clear now?

 

[Dapper]

Thus [Citation Needed]

Anon citation

 

[Sach]

Anyone watching Obama's speech? Thoughts?

 

[Famine]

I didn't say Ron Paul or Omnis went to a Klan event. I said if one were to go to a Klan event, I would question one's character. Paul or Omnis didn't attend a Klan event, therefore their character isn't brought into question on this instance.

If Paul did in fact attend a Klan event, not the Paul/Omnis event, then I would question his character or anyone else that attended.

Clear now?

I didn't say that you said they did.

The article quotes Anonymous's press release, but here's a mirror of what Anon posted on the AP3's website when it was hacked:

http://zone-h.org/mirror/id/16824726

This is why I presented it as Anonymous's finding on the situation, they are claiming based on what they found that Ron Paul is supported by AP3, a white supremacist political party.

Anon citation

Scary that Dapper is a better source than a journalist

However having read that lot I can't see any ties between Ron Paul and the named individuals aside from the individuals claiming a tie between them and Ron Paul. It'd be like Danoff and I exchanging e-mails talking about how Obama was our best mate and drawing the conclusion that Obama is a secret capitalist and libertarian...

Also I seem to have miscredited the unsubstantiated claim about Ron Paul's politics to the journo rather than "Anonymous", but the point I made remains.

The thing about being anonymous is that anyone can be anonymous simply by being anonymous. The problem with Anonymous is that their anonymity is also anonymous, so anonymous people can, while being anonymous, claim to be Anonymous when really they're just anonymous. I'll also note that this "Anonymous" claims to have bought things with one of the individuals' credit cards - most out-of-character for Anonymous.

Either way this story seems to be the same, warmed over "Ron Paul Letters" rubbish resurrected with the same amount of corroborative evidence (none) by un-named individuals with an anti-Paul agenda.

 

[Dapper]

It is scary believable Famine gets what he asked for, sees the real truth, and still can't acknowledge reality.

 

[Famine]

Read the whole thing through, Dapper. Cite a single piece of evidence that connects Ron Paul to the individuals and not the other way round.

Or, you know, don't.


Personally, I can see why racists would be attracted to Ron Paul. I can't see why Ron Paul would be attracted to racists - outside the notion that old people are a bit racist, which seems equally offensive.

 

[Omnis]

aka the Maoist Rebel Alliance.

 

[Dotini]

It is scary believable Famine gets what he asked for, sees the real truth, and still can't acknowledge reality.

I'm not convinced the "real truth" can be entirely determined by a redacted post from Anonymous. Neither am I convinced Famine cannot acknowledge reality.

Because I'm a paying Paul supporter, and I want to know what I'm doing, I looked into this pretty carefully.

There is no serious challenge to the reporting done 4 years ago by David Weigel and Julian Sanchez for Reason: the newsletters were the project of Murray Rothbard and Lew Rockwell. Rothbard died in '95 and Rockwell has moved on from that kind of thing. And yes, Paul spent a lot of time with these two guys back in the day. To my knowledge it is false that he has spent any credible amount of time with fringe elements such as referred to in the Anonymous post. But if he has, I would want to know more about it.

I've no problem discussing Paul's intellectual underpinnings - but only on a serious and respectful level.


Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[FoolKiller]

Per Anonymous, Paul has dealt with the AP3, which is a white supremacy politcal party. And going to a Klan even might not make you a klansman, but it would really make me question your character.

I still question if it was Anonymous. When we first went over this I pointed out then that the supposed release from Anonymous had a section bragging about having fun with someone's credit card, which was an activity they have specifically denounced in the past.

So, either Anonymous has always been lying about identity theft or this is not Anonymous.

Another fun note. Canada is the largest supplier of foreign oil to the US, next is Mexico (it's almost like neighboring countries are more convenient). Between the two of them they account for roughly half of US oil imports (the error bars indicate that it could be more than half, or less than 40%). So we care about this?

But the Keystone pipeline is a bad idea, mmmkay?

 

[Dapper]

But how are we going to know who the Klan are endorsing? We need 'White Americans' for someone

Apparently it's Ron Paul.

There's many stories out there that surfaced in the past day or two, but this one has pictures: Link

Read the whole thing through, Dapper. Cite a single piece of evidence that connects Ron Paul to the individuals and not the other way round.

Or, you know, don't.

The typical Famine Faux Pas.
Blinded by fanboyism and the need to be right, you think people are saying things they didn't say... clearly.

 

[Liquid]

KKK and co. donate to Ron Paul, not the other way around.

I think that's the point Famine is making. Ron Paul may attract the attentions of supremacists, but Ron Paul neither approves of nor donates to their causes.

We all know people who are racist or bigoted. Does that make us racist and bigoted by extension? No it does not.

 

[Sach]

KKK and co. donate to Ron Paul, not the other way around.

I think that's the point Famine is making. Ron Paul may attract the attentions of supremacists, but Ron Paul neither approves of nor donates to their causes.

We all know people who are racist or bigoted. Does that make us racist and bigoted by extension? No it does not.

What if we let them pay our rent?

 

[Tornado]

So, apparently, all politicians must make it a point to (somehow) physically prevent people from supporting them.

 

[Dapper]

I've no problem discussing Paul's intellectual underpinnings

You think it is cool for states allowing racism and disregarding the Bill of Rights?