Project CARS General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Terronium-12
- 20,822 comments
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- 1,116
- Gassolini
From the very start, there were two main points to WMD: 1 - help finance the game and potentially get returns from profits. 2 - contribute to the development process. This couldn't have been made much clearer, it was talked about (still is) and it's in the T&C. If you signed up without reading anything about what you signed up for (as so many seem to have done...), that's your own fault.
No. It has changed so that you'll probably get your fees even if you don't make any contributions whatsoever. How many times does that have to be stated?
It also belongs to the history that you have used your toolpack for over a year.
T&C page 1:
"THIS IS NOT AN INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITY. PLEASE DO NOT GET INVOLVED IF THAT IS WHAT YOU THINK IT IS – IT ISN’T."
This was also made abundantly clear to anyone not having their heads in the sand.
Wrong. Now you'll probably get your returns, even if you're a quarrelsome non-contributor
The only change that has been made is that to satisfy the FSA, SMS has to be very lenient and provide a refund to anyone who wants it (I'm getting tired of typing that).
It's very simple. You and dr_slump are just trying to be maximum difficult about it, without spending any effort on getting the facts.
The only change that has been made is for your benefit and protection (ref. the FSA agreement).
- 2,801
- fatkrakr
Exactly my point. I put my money in to finance the game. Others put money in to contribute to the developement and Im sure still others had other reason for giving money. Everyones dollars needs to be worth the same amount. If you feel your contributions to the game should entitle you to a bigger cut then you need to get with SMS and get on the payroll. You invested your money and are donating your time.
- 11,969
- Christchurch
So why are you all still going on about it? Make notable contributions on WMD and you'll in all likelihood get a slightly bigger slice of the pie, but even if you remain silent and just play the builds you'll still probably get a portion of your toolpack cost returned to you. Ian Bell even said simply playing the builds is a contribution; you've helped fund the project and SMS can collect usage data when you play the game - both of which are indirect contributions to the project.
Your return is based on how much you put in, simple as that. You're required to contribute to the game to recieve your return but as already mentioned that can be just playing the game. How much you contribute to the game development has nothing to do with your return however.
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- 1,116
- Gassolini
Because unfounded speculation and misinformation must be countered since there is a general public reading the forums. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it
In this issue, I'm merely a provider of factual information, and one educated guess. The ones "going on about it" are fatkrakr, dr_slump and now yourself. Enough information and explanations has been provided, but the usual suspects keep repeating the same drivel. The latest postings attempting to explain the actual situation seem to be subject of wilful ignorance for some...
No, that has never been, and still isn't, the case.
The percentage of the fees are fixed. There has never been any statement to the contrary.
Yes, they are, and yet again, SMS has stated that they will be very lenient, and my guess is that all members will get their fees.
It's not 100% accurate but you can calculate your return with the excel chart here:
http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?9511-Work-out-your-potential-earnings
You have to change the estimated sales figure at the top to see how your return will differ with more sales. Obviously we don't know how many it will sell but try some values and see what the return is.
http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?9511-Work-out-your-potential-earnings
You have to change the estimated sales figure at the top to see how your return will differ with more sales. Obviously we don't know how many it will sell but try some values and see what the return is.
Timppaq
Premium
- 5,137
- Helsinki
- GTP_Timppaq
Im on my phone so I dont have the patience to read thru all, but one thing sprang to mind: In the original agreement what we all did with SMS - was there a point that mentions that basically anything is subject to change if wmd decides so, or is it so that the agreement we made can not be changed without my blessing. So even if wmd decides to go new gen, do I have to go with it or is it breaking our contract?
Need to ask this in wmd but as I started to write a post here I have no patience to write all this again with this citty phone.
Need to ask this in wmd but as I started to write a post here I have no patience to write all this again with this citty phone.
dr_slump
Premium
- 7,425
- Switzerland
- the_dr_slump / GTP_dr_slump
Which I find very interesting since the EULA does only use the word "May". http://wmdportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/WMD_Terms_And_Conditions.pdf
Look maybe my english is the real problem in this case, because I understand may as a not absolute term. It's not my first language, so if I'm wrong because of this I'm terribly sorry.
I don't know how much and how far which one of them counts. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
I wonder how far the "investing money" aspect counts as "contribution". Because technically it is a contribution.
The investment aspect is strange anyway. First they state it as as not being an investment, then the FSA comes and now it is stated as investment. For me that's all a little watery. (Can I say watery in english? I don't know. Perhaps it makes no sense at all, sorry then.)
That's sad if you only see it this way. I find it as something elementary which has to be asked. It apparently is nonsense in your eyes, I see that.
And that "without spending effort" isn't nice. I think I spent more effort into this particular topic than anyone else here. I tried to find it out and get the facts straight. Don't blame me of being lazy, I'm not. Mistakes happen, but it's not as if I wanted to post wrong stuff on purpose, IF I did so.
Also, sorry but life isn't always easy happy tralala. I don't see why you're having a problem with it.
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- 1,116
- Gassolini
T&C page 3:
1. ABOUT WMD AND THESE WMD TERMS
...
1.6. SMS may make alterations to these WMD Terms from time to time and these variations shall become effective immediately upon being accessible from http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?77-Terms-amp-Conditions.
So yes, SMS can change the terms. They have done so once (contrary to numerous claims on them thar interwebs), when we went from Free To PLay to Boxed Release as a result of a members vote.
To answer your question further:
The T&C does not cover details such as the release platforms. These things, and more, are subject to votes or SMS' decisions.
T&C page 3:
1. ABOUT WMD AND THESE WMD TERMS
...
1.2. These WMD Terms:
...
1.2.2. constitute the entire agreement between you and SMS;
So, there are no gaurantees on that point. Of course it's in SMS' and ours interest that they and we (when discussions and votes excert influence) make the best business solutions. Since there are more than one WMD member, there's bound to be some that disagree with the developments
Such is life. Short answer: a change of release platforms does not constitute a breach of the contract.
- 1,116
- Gassolini
If you had gone about it differently, you would have gotten a different flavour of responses. Still, I think you have gotten very reasonable and informative responses.
Also, there's nothing new here, and nothing that shouldn't have been known by WMD members. Unfortunately people don't seem willing to seek out facts, even when it concerns their own involvement with a project like WMD/pCARS. There is nothing in my postings on the subject that aren't publicly available.
There was no more effort required than taking on board the postings from WMD members who have written to clarify the matter.
I'm not the one having problems here. On the contray, I and others are trying to help solving the proposed problems in this thread, and I think we have put quite a bit of patience into it. Hopefully things are a bit clearer by now
dr_slump
Premium
- 7,425
- Switzerland
- the_dr_slump / GTP_dr_slump
I did indeed.
I just don't like being demoted to a dork by mentioning multiple times that I'm only a douche who tries to be maximum difficult, childish, etc. Especially if it's caused by reading one of my posts wrong, but that seems to only really affect one person here (not you).I'm not the one having problems here. On the contray I and others are trying to help solving the proposed problems in this thread
In my eyes I think my arguments are reasonable. I don't expect everybody to see it the same way as I do, no surely not.
But it's ok. We've seen and heard the points, arguments, etc from both sides. I guess everybody can analyse that by himself now. Thanks for all of the reasonable, informative and civilized answers.
From my side it's finished here, highlighting from my side of course.
- 3,984
- Frankfurt am Main
- GTP_mcfizzle
- LotsaMcfizzle
Since there are more than one WMD member, there's bound to be some that disagree with the developments
Short answer: a change of release platforms does not constitute a breach of the contract.
Dropping two platforms is more than a disagreement on development. It's a complete reversal. I made my decision to support development specifically because they were supporting current gen consoles and I'm sure I'm not the only member. If it's gets voted to drop current gen support then I will drop my support.
My opinion, and I have no evidence to support it, is that they budgeted poorly and don't have enough to finish the PC version and make the console versions. They can't ask for more funding because the original funding closed but they can open funding for a new project, next gen, so they've decided they would like to go that route. And one of their posted reasons was Sony may not allow them to publish on current gen and force it to be published on next gen is a poor poor made up excuse. Sony isn't telling developers what platforms they can and can not develope for so they shouldn't play us for fools.
- 1,678
- Canada
- TheDrummingKING
I believe Andy Garton (or Ian Bell) said the reason to drop the PS3 and 360 was because they don't have time to complete the game for the 2 new systems as well as the current. The idea as it stands now (I believe) is to make pCARS for the PC, Wii U, PS4, and Xbone, and once sufficient profit is made off those, they would finish the PS3 and 360 versions. That makes sense to me: get in the market for the next gen consoles while it's still fresh.
chromatic9
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- chromatic9
Games in the past have been moved to new platforms while dropping the old ones. That's game development, pcars is no different.
Rewind back to Oct 2011, the new consoles were pieces of draft paper. impossible to predict if they would come out in 2013/14/15. Much talk and predictions were 2014 for reveals. Pcars was aiming for 2013, Sony came forward in Feb 2013 and changed the gaming landscape.
If pcars was on PS3/360 in mid 2014, it would have a short life, difficult to keep the price high. People who buy new games regularly will move onto PS4/One. PCars has the chance of selling into 2015 and 2016 on nextgen. In two years PS4/One will have a combined base of 32 million of people who want to buy new stuff for their machine, tired of 360/PS3 which are up to 8 years old. 6months after pcars is supposed to out (mid 2014) Xbox 360 will 9 years old.
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- 3,984
- Frankfurt am Main
- GTP_mcfizzle
- LotsaMcfizzle
How many of those games were publicly funded? How many closed funding because they reached the needed amount and then decided to drop 50% of platforms that they told backers the game would appear on before the funding closed?
I want Project Cars on PS4/XBONE but I also want it on PS3/360. You say in two years a combined base of 32 million but that ignores the current combined base of 150+ million plus future sales of their predecessors with an obvious majority of those having not bought a next gen system at that point and hungry for games.
They listed multiple reasons and Sony/Microsoft possibly not allowing them to publish the game on PS3/360 was one of their reasons. And whether they don't have time or money it still shows poor planning and broken promises in my opinion. I'm willing to bet they realized current gen consoles wouldn't be realistic with their timeline/budget long before funding closed.
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chromatic9
Premium
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- England
- chromatic9
Most of those 150million are people who are buying used games, or cheap games at the store. Sales figures for games don't grow exponentially. Your usual game hits 2-3 million whether the base is 40mill or 150mill. Halo 3 sells around 10 million. halo 4 doesn't sell 20-30 million becasue the base has grown much more. halo 4 sold around 8 million.
killzone 2 sells around 2 million for its first two years, Killzone 3 sells similar despite double the base. meanwhile Resistance 1 sold 3-4 million within the first few years of the PS3. Resistance 3 sells 1.4 million despite triple the base. The core buying people are those bought the system early, also longer the system is out, the more choice is there, surrounded by cheap games and endless choice.
Have a look back what the dves did when 360/PS3 were new, did they stick to 140million PS2s, no and this was only with the console 5-6 years old. it was a bargain gamers dream, hand me downs, job lots off ebay. Really only the odd first party games and sports games by big publishers gave a token release on the PS2. Where's your Assassins creed for those 140 million? They moved that game to new systems with a massivley lower base and sold 8million in no time
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- 3,984
- Frankfurt am Main
- GTP_mcfizzle
- LotsaMcfizzle
Okay, that's a valid point but also ignores reasons why people aren't buying the 2nd, 3rd, 4th releases of games, staleness being one, while this is a new franchise. You mention sales though. Let's look at potential sales for the WIIU which latest figures have it at 3.45 million as of March 2013. One post on WMD of a supporter dropping PS360 even writes soemthing like think of all those people wanting to buy a racing game. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. What's the attach rate of the best selling franchises? 10-15% maybe? A good selling game is about 2% on current consoles putting it at about 1.5 million for both PS3 and 360, 3 million combined. Earlier in a systems lifetime the % is higher but as you pointed out once the system is established the numbers don't grow exponentially. So GT5 is about an 11% attach rate at around 9 million of 77million potential customers. The attach rate is obviously higher the earlier in a systems lifetime for mutliple reasons, one being lack of other options or competitions for a game like PCARS. Okay, let's be agressive and triple WIIU sales by the time PCARS comes out that's 10.35 million systems. That gives you 1.13 PCARS WIIU sales if it has the same attach rate as GT5 and only 207,000 if it has what may be considered an average attach rate for the systems we have now. The real number is probably somewhere in between. So they want to drop the platforms that have a much higher chance of selling large number of copies while keeping the platform with the lowest potential for sales. And to be clear I support continuing development on the platforms they told us they would before closing funding plus opening new funding and developing next gen.
But the arguments I've seen also ignore the fact that many PS360 owners will eventually move to PS4/XBONE but after a few years. Wouldn't it benefit the series to introduce it to people on the console they currently own and then when they do upgrade there is either an enhanced version sitting there waiting for them or a sequel?
Edit: sorry if it doesn't flow well, I was going to edit a lot of that into my last post and then you replied after I had written much of it and added some in to make it a reply instead.
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- 6,318
- West Virginia
- HBR-Roadhog
- HBR Roadhog
I would think the development would be much faster and easier if the target was PC and the PS4 and XB1 since they both have more in common with the PC platform wise and have more power than the other consoles. On top of that from everything I have heard the PS3 is a bear to develop for so moving to the new consoles would seem like a good idea and possibly produce a better overall game.
I will probably be looking at the PC version myself.
I will probably be looking at the PC version myself.
chromatic9
Premium
- 2,835
- England
- chromatic9
You can use other titles that are similar. i'm sure you'll see games don't escalate according to install base. Would be great if the type who bought a PS3/360 last week buy new games often but they don't. Game sales over two years are very similar whether its 2006-2009 or 2009-2013. Niche titles can be worse with more install base, some of the smaller games sales are horrific in the last 2 years.
Another point is pcars won't get much advertising budget, its a small dev team and budget. the people who will hear about pcars visit gaming sites, forums etc etc and keen on gaming and will be moving on, those guys you're on about who bought a PS3 in the last year won't hear about pcars. secondly making noise in the media within 2014-15 will be easier with less choice and huge focus on PS4/One. Even more so after the time its taken. I'm sure most of us keen gamers are ready to move on.
You bring up the Wii U, to me its a very odd situation I don't want to go into much. I wouldn't write off Nintendo but even if they turn it around, many third party games on the wii throughout the cycle big and small install base have failed. is there a opportunity on the Wii for a serious driving game, maybe, there seems to be some good will from Nintendo and it is a newer machine that should be relevent.
it looks bad now but the 3DS looked bad, Wii took some time then sky rocketted, usually they start slow, then eventually get the big games out. Even so, if Wii U is a success its really difficult to say if a game like pcars has potential customers. I would say not many but can see the reasons why SMS may stick to doing the Wii U version
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- 3,984
- Frankfurt am Main
- GTP_mcfizzle
- LotsaMcfizzle
I understand all that, but I do feel like the discussion on WMD was steered in a certain direction, dropping current gen, by Ian/Andy by them withholding info and not being complete honest in the way they worded things ie. Sony/Microsoft not allowing it to be published on current gen instead of presenting all the options fairly. That's what I really wanted to point out plus my dissatisfaction with dropping two systems when they are prepared to ask for more money from people to add two more. And I wasn't trying to write off WIIU but theorize based on it's current state.
I think that's the key right there. My opinion is obviously formed because I joined to support current gen development. I'm not thrilled about the possibility of that being dropped but obviously am speaking only for myself and my feelings.
I think that's the key right there. My opinion is obviously formed because I joined to support current gen development. I'm not thrilled about the possibility of that being dropped but obviously am speaking only for myself and my feelings.
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- 1,116
- Gassolini
I can see the disappointment if one was in it for the current gen consoles.
However, claiming that SMS is dishonest is a bit rich. I think they're very open about it. We've heard a lot of the devs honest thoughts on the matter - a rare thing indeed. In fact, I've never encountered a more open, informative and honest development process (three cheers for WMD!)
In an ideal world we'd surely go for every platform. I'll not repeat the points posted by others, but I reckon that, given reality the reasons for moving on are very good.
There's one very important point that has not been mentioned here, though:
The decision will be put to a poll. The WMD members will decide this (another three cheers for WMD!)
However, claiming that SMS is dishonest is a bit rich. I think they're very open about it. We've heard a lot of the devs honest thoughts on the matter - a rare thing indeed. In fact, I've never encountered a more open, informative and honest development process (three cheers for WMD!)
In an ideal world we'd surely go for every platform. I'll not repeat the points posted by others, but I reckon that, given reality the reasons for moving on are very good.
There's one very important point that has not been mentioned here, though:
The decision will be put to a poll. The WMD members will decide this (another three cheers for WMD!)
- 2,801
- fatkrakr
If they drop support for current gen then why the need for a second round of funding? Have they spent all that money already? I would also like to see how far along the 360 and ps3 builds are. They should be close to the same state as the pc build. To me it makes no sense to drop current gen. There has been over 1 1/2 years of work put into it. It shouldnt take much more to finish those versions. We as investors from the first round put alot of money in to current gen development now they want to drop it and add funding for next gen. I think they need to stick to the original plan and if they want to do next gen make it seperate, as is now.
Dropping current gen from pcars is nothing but a money loss for pcars. There are millions of copies to be sold on current gen. We invested alot of money for current gen and should keep going with the plan. It just makes zero financial sense to drop something that should be close to finished and has a huge user base still in place.
Dropping current gen from pcars is nothing but a money loss for pcars. There are millions of copies to be sold on current gen. We invested alot of money for current gen and should keep going with the plan. It just makes zero financial sense to drop something that should be close to finished and has a huge user base still in place.
- 1,116
- Gassolini
The second round of funding is needed to secure parts of the PS4 and XB1 development. Yes, money has been spent, but some of the budget is there for part of the next gen development. Speaking as a software developer (nothing to do with the pCARS development), I'd think there's a lot of work left to complete PS3 and XB360 versions, even if this is cross development and not porting. Currently they have (at least partially) built these versions, but I doubt they're in such an advanced state as the PC version. Those version will need many adaptions and separate polishing and testing as we draw closer to a release. I.e. my guess is that the bulk of expenses for the console versions would come later. Do not forget the considerable expenses for testing, tweaking and publishing.
pCARS is essentially a next gen title by its nature, and it will most likely be easier to make good PS4 and XB1 versions, than spending effort on shoehorning them into the current gen consoles (esp. PS3).
Slavishly sticking to a two year old plan when reality has changed is not good business sense. The new platforms are coming earlier than anticipated, and pCARS is taking longer than first anticipated (dev projects always do), so the two are set to meet up at a opportune point, and at a time when the previous gen is starting to run out of steam and on its way into obsolescence.
It's worth noting that there may be a back port to PS3 and XB360 later, if the income allows, the platforms are still viable and SMS/WMD want to do it.
pCARS is essentially a next gen title by its nature, and it will most likely be easier to make good PS4 and XB1 versions, than spending effort on shoehorning them into the current gen consoles (esp. PS3).
Slavishly sticking to a two year old plan when reality has changed is not good business sense. The new platforms are coming earlier than anticipated, and pCARS is taking longer than first anticipated (dev projects always do), so the two are set to meet up at a opportune point, and at a time when the previous gen is starting to run out of steam and on its way into obsolescence.
It's worth noting that there may be a back port to PS3 and XB360 later, if the income allows, the platforms are still viable and SMS/WMD want to do it.
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