Russian Invasion of Ukraine

  • Thread starter Rage Racer
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Liquid
And it is now pretty much impossible for this support to ever happen organically thanks to the war crime invasion.

Nice Job Breaking It, Putin. You've made the one thing you wanted literally impossible.
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It just looks like such a massive miscalculation. This was supposed to be over with ages ago - super easy annex of Ukraine, Russian empire grows and is unstoppable.
 
Biden is having a Press Conference right now in which he's pledged an additional $800M in military aid to Ukraine. Everything from long-range AA Systems and additional ATGM launchers to small arms for the Ukrainian Military and the civilian volunteers in the country.
 
NotThePrez
Biden is having a Press Conference right now in which he's pledged an additional $800M in military aid to Ukraine. Everything from long-range AA Systems and additional ATGM launchers to small arms for the Ukrainian Military and the civilian volunteers in the country.
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Would be nice if the EU does the same.
 
Dennisch
Would be nice if the EU does the same.
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I have a feeling that H&K, Rheinmetall and others agree with you. While obviously nothing specific was mentioned, the emphasis on the various weaponry we'll be sending gave me the impression that we might start seeing Western (read: American) weaponry arrive in Ukraine in greater numbers, and not just more Eastern Bloc weapons and ammo that are produced elsewhere.

What really caught my attention was Biden's emphasis on the AA systems that we'll be apparently sending to Ukraine. Since NATO itself can't legally maintain a no-fly zone over Ukraine, I get the feeling that the emphasis of these weapons means that they're going to be used as something of an in-between measure that Ukraine can use on its own.
 
NotThePrez
I have a feeling that H&K, Rheinmetall and others agree with you. While obviously nothing specific was mentioned, the emphasis on the various weaponry we'll be sending gave me the impression that we might start seeing Western (read: American) weaponry arrive in Ukraine in greater numbers, and not just more Eastern Bloc weapons and ammo that are produced elsewhere.

What really caught my attention was Biden's emphasis on the AA systems that we'll be apparently sending to Ukraine. Since NATO itself can't legally maintain a no-fly zone over Ukraine, I get the feeling that the emphasis of these weapons means that they're going to be used as something of an in-between measure that Ukraine can use on its own.
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I have a feeling Russia is going to be super interested in stopping this shipment with whatever means they can.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
I have a feeling Russia is going to be super interested in stopping this shipment with whatever means they can.
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As @NotThePrez said, Russia will have an impossibly tiny window in order to stop this shipment without getting NATO directly into the conflict.
 
Joey D
Also, the Senate has branded Putin a war criminal by unanimous consensus. Just imagine being so hated that you manage to make modern-day Democrats and Republicans unanimously agree on something.
www.reuters.com

U.S. Senate unanimously condemns Putin as war criminal

The U.S. Senate on Tuesday unanimously passed a resolution condemning Russian President Vladimir Putin as a war criminal, a rare show of unity in the deeply divided Congress.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
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Unanimous?

Man if only they cared about internal issues as much as interests in a country directly opposite of the globe :indiff:
 
Rage Racer
Okay, what intelligence is telling Putin is going to move further into Europe, where most countries are NATO members?


Sorry if I'm wrong, but I feel like your standards of genocide differ depending on whether the victims are Russians or not. Earlier, you accused Russia of genocide of Georgians and Chechens (although the "genocided" Chechens are still there and they're fighting for Russia now) and you now accuse RF of genocide of Ukriainains, but massive civilian casualties in Donbass don't count as genocide for you. Can you explain how you decide what is genocide and what is not?

And there's no need for that "Putin-aid drinker" thing. You don't need to be a Putinist to acknowledge the anti-Russian violence in east Ukraine. I know quite many people (including political activists) who are openly anti-Putin but support the Russian rebellion in Donbass. And we can have a respectful discussion, without falling to personal attacks.


That's what I'm talking about.

And what are you trying to say by this? That Russia is still guilty in crimes of a Georgian terrorist? Or that Putin is responsible for them because he served in KGB?

Russia doesn't glorify Stalin since 1956. Have you wondered why and when the city of Stalingrad became Volgograd? And during the Perestroika era (late '80s), the Soviet government officialy deplored the crimes of Stalinism such as collusion with Hitler (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) and the Katyn massacre. You are wrong if you think Russia doesn't acknowledge the cruelty of Stalin's rule.

Of course there are some people in Russia who believe Stalin was good and would want him back, but the government avoids even talking about Stalin or Lenin when it's not necessary.


You missed the point - I mean the actual Nazi collaborators of WW2. I don't remember any street in Russia named after Andrey Vlasov or Bronislav Kaminski, or any monuments of them placed. People who publicly glorify historic personalities like these two don't walk free for too long in Russia.

Regarding the Wagner PMC, I know they aren't the most humane on the battlefield, but all we know about their alleged Nazi ideology is the tatoos on Utkin's body. Unlike the Azov commander Biletsky who publicly expressed his ideas.

Why not? There's no evidence of the contrary.

But what about 6 previous years? It wasn't 1 year ago when this war began.
I'm not saying it strictly meets the definition of genocide, but neither the Russian actions in Ukraine do.


No, I'm NOT praising the invasion, I think it was a mistake. I thought it wouldn't happen because IMO it would be a trap to Russia.
However, I will NOT sympathize Ukraine in any way (the state of Ukraine, not the people).

But if you're talking about the communists, I agree with you here. The bolsheviks destroyed our country in 1917, and if I was the president, I'd continue the decommunization campaign and remove Lenin's body from the Red Square. The subject of this thread - Ukraine - is another Lenin's mistake. However, I'm not sure resolving it in the Putin's "decommunization & denazification" way is the best idea.

That woman "whom the AP has not been able to identify" looks similar to a beauty blogger ("krevvetochka" and "gixie_beauty" on Instagram), who is actually pregnant. On another photo, a very similarly looking woman is walking. But it's unlikely that she could be a patient there, because according to the locals, there were no patients inside - it's been used as a military outpost by the Azov soldiers.


So, I'd say it's highly likely to be staged. Of course I'm not 100% sure, but identifying that woman and checking if she actually dead or not would be necessary to verify.
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Russians just bombed theatre in Mariupol in which over thousand people took shelter, it doesn't matter if you call it genocide or not, it is a war crime... I told you years ago that Russia cannot be trusted from history point of view and everything your dear leader do only support my view.

If Putin was so concerned with so called genocide of Russians in Ukraine he could ask ICC to investigate, that's proper course of action, not starting a war with another country.
 
Gerarghini
Unanimous?

Man if only they cared about internal issues as much as interests in a country directly opposite of the globe :indiff:
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To be fair, this was the Senate, which is a bit more (stress a bit) levelheaded than the House.

The House would have seen 1 or 2 (or 6 or 7) votes against calling Putin a war criminal due to the extreme lack of a brain required to run for office there.
 
A Canadian military analyst (I can't say for sure his level of expertise, but he is a history professor at the Royal Military Academy of Canada) has the most thorough breakdown of the actual engagement I've heard/read thus far.

It seems like the failure of Russia to secure that airfield near Kyiv and the blunderous movement of the troops from Belarus has been a critical failure for the entire mission so far.
 
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Joey D
Were their Nazis in there? Seriously, bombing a place where civilians are taking shelter is a cowardly move.

www.cnn.com

Russia bombs theater where hundreds sought shelter and 'children' was written on grounds | CNN

A theater where hundreds of people are said to have taken shelter in the besieged Ukrainian city of Mariupol was mostly reduced to rubble on Wednesday, according to an image shared by its city council.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
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Obviously it's not a question of if there were, but how many.
 
inCloud
The burden of proof rests on the plaintiff or the person filing the suit.
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OK, here.


For our English-speaking friends: these are books found in schools of Russian-seized Melitopol. The books, marked with Azov symbols, propagate the ideology of OUN (a fascist organization of Ukrainian nationalists that pleged loyalty to Hitler when Germany occupied the west of Ukraine in 1941) to kids.

inCloud
It was always Putins war. Russian mercs, russian weapons, russian speaking nationalists that beat **** out of those who wasn't ok with separatism. There are reasons why ordinary people in Odessa, Kharkiv, Mariupol dont want to be in DPR/LPR and choosing nationalists from Azov instead of russian saviours.

I know merc who was in DPR, know how Russian officials recruit young guys here in 2016.

And when conflict was almost over Putin reignite it by throwing at Ukranians our army.
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It wasn't one-sided, remember. Kidnappings, tortures, "disappearances" and murders of pro-Russian activists and journalists (Oles Buzina is just one example), publishing their personal data on Mirotvorets site, Ukrainian "patriots" mocking the victims of UAF's bombings and shellings, calling them "Colorado bugs". And as the main point of no return - the burning of 42 pro-Russian protestors alive in Odessa. The nationalists were proud of their auto-da-fe, posing with burned bodies and joking about "Odessa's May barbecues".

When Zelensky became president, it hasn't become much better - he continued the de-Russification policy, banning the Russian TV channels, movies and even books. Once on the TV, Zelensky said that Russian people must leave Donbass (meaning not the military - just people who identify as Russians). His message was clear: Russians do not belong in Ukraine.

I think there's no wonder that people in Donetsk and Lugansk said: "Fine, we're leaving Ukraine. But we're taking our land with us."

And I don't see how this conflict "was almost over" when Zelensky clearly stated he's not going to comply with the Minsk treaties.

inCloud
Right now Russian army killing Ukrainian childrens and Russian TV saying that they killing only Nazi's. I could see why Ukrainians saying what they saying, this could be justified. What Russians saying and doing can't.
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I'll leave no comment on whether it's okay to call for extermination of children in some circumstances, but I'll just say this Ukrainian TV host did a great gift for the Kremlin propaganda. He did more than Kiselyov and Solovyov combined to motivate the Russians to fight and want to hang this guy by the balls for his words.

However, I heard he took his words back and apologized already. Could this be somehow connected to Kadyrov reportedly being in Kyiv region? :D
novcze
Russians just bombed theatre in Mariupol in which over thousand people took shelter, it doesn't matter if you call it genocide or not, it is a war crime...
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Look what I found on Twitter. Posted three days ago. She must be a prophet to predict that Russian bombing, isn't she?


novcze
I told you years ago that Russia cannot be trusted from history point of view and everything your dear leader do only support my view.
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And who can be trusted? The US?

Also, have you heard anything about about the Ukrainian missile strike on the center of Donetsk killing 20 civilians? Somehow I think you haven't...
 
One thing that was true in Grozny (per some reading) and that appears to be true in this current conflict is that unlike the US/Western military model, Russia does not delegate battlefield responsibilities to enlisted officers (NCOs aren't really a thing?) which is why they keep losing generals. Seems like a pretty careless approach to put such VIPs in harms way.
 
TexRex
Obviously it's not a question of if there were, but how many.
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According to Putin and some people who've chosen to participate in this discussion, they're all Nazis. In fact, Ukraine is just Nazi Germany 2.0, run by the Azov Battalion and their incredibly larger force of...checks notes...900 (or roughly 0.002%) of the Ukrainian population.
 
NotThePrez
Biden is having a Press Conference right now in which he's pledged an additional $800M in military aid to Ukraine. Everything from long-range AA Systems and additional ATGM launchers to small arms for the Ukrainian Military and the civilian volunteers in the country.
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With $800M, I doubt that's enough for more than a single Patriot battery. Unless the US are giving second-hand systems, for lower cost and faster delivery. Training some crew will surely be the hardest part though, as ukrainians have no experience using NATO/US AA systems. Plus, unless those batteries are used around Lviv, it will be very difficult just to move an entire battery anywhere else in Ukraine.
 
Rage Racer
Look what I found on Twitter. Posted three days ago. She must be a prophet to predict that Russian bombing, isn't she?
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Whilst I still think you are following the Russian narative with plenty of confirmation bias. This needs to be looked at in depth as a matter of urgency.

Very few people seem to be able to look at this with a fully open view.
 
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DQuaN
Whilst I still think you are following the Russian narative with plenty of confirmation bias. This needs to be looked at in depth as a matter of urgency.

Very few people seem to be able to look at this with a fully open view.
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It's exactly what a Russia operative who wants you to think that Ukraine is full of Nazis staging civilian casualties would say...
 
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DQuaN
Whilst I still think you are following the Russian narative with plenty of confirmation bias. This needs to be looked at in depth as a matter of urgency.

Very few people seem to be able to look at this with a fully open view.
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I know you better than this mate. Next, Russian propaganda will state those civilians in Tsjernihiv shot themselves in the head while waiting for a loaf of bread.
 
R1600Turbo
No idea how important this international court of justice is?
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In theory, important. In practice, eh not so much. But it's worth noting that the Vice President of the court is Russian ambassador Kirill Gevorgian and Russia is a member of the court (along with a majority of nations).
 
Rage Racer
found
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By who? Denazificators?
Rage Racer
It wasn't one-sided, remember.
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But proukrainian ultras doesn't try to separate Western Ukraine from Eastern. There was balance between russian speaking and ukrainian speaking populations. By separating DPR, Crimea and LPR Putin destroy this balance.
Rage Racer
And I don't see how this conflict "was almost over" when Zelensky clearly stated he's not going to comply with the Minsk treaties.
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And? He clearly not stupid enough to attack DPR/LPR when 200.000 russians right behind the corner.
 
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Bram Turismo
I know you better than this mate. Next, Russian propaganda will state those civilians in Tsjernihiv shot themselves in the head while waiting for a loaf of bread.
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Danoff
It's exactly what a Russia operative who wants you to think that Ukraine is full of Nazis staging civilian casualties would say...
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The Azov twitter account apparently claimed none of the citizens could leave b/c of Russians surrounding them & posted a video of them passing out supplies a couple days ago. If so, sounds easy enough for Russia to know where a bunch of Mariupol's citizens are & that Azov is saying they are to providing them aid. Bomb it & claim Azov did it.

In all seriousness, that Twitter account would still need to be investigated, esp. since it also follows & retweets the official Russian account. Then, you have claims out there that an Azov member surrendered/turned themselves over to Russian troops and gave information. Add in the fact that this is the 2nd convenient time Russia has hit a civilian building and said, "No, it was secretly Nazi base. Oh except this time, it was actually Nazis who did it themselves" on top of all the other clearly untrue claims Russia has been spreading going back to the first, "We're not invading, just training at the border".

The dates posted are hard to ignore but so has everything Russia claimed so far that's been shown otherwise. Add in the mentioned bread line or drone footage of a man said to be killed by Russian troops as he surrendered getting out of his car.
 
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I don't doubt that there are, somewhere, some shenanigans being played out on behalf of Ukraine and in the name of Ukraine. It's a statistical certainty. The critical thing, though, is that since 24th February and the start of the 'special military operation', Russia has been by far and away the worse aggressor and by a colossal order of magnitude. It's not even close.

It is pretty much unreasonable for one side to put up a fight and be completely above board and innocent. But a few bad eggs in Ukraine, relative to the rest of Ukraine, does not excuse anything Russia has done. Finding something bad on Ukraine's side, which I'm sure exists, is not the "Gotcha!" pro-Putinites think it is.
 
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Rage Racer
And who can be trusted? The US?
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Probably not the country that started carpet bombing an entire country hours after claiming they were sending troops into specific contested regions to set up peacekeeping operations; and certainly not the cheerleaders who keep lying out of the side of their mouth about how horrified they are about the invasion taking place while foolishly trying to act smug when they trot out obviously dumb talking points as if they are tautologies regarding how justified it all has been.












Anyway:


1647468387174.png
 
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