Save the Manuals!

[Beeblebrox237]

That's a thing... sod the manual/auto gearbox thing, what was ever wrong with a regular, cable-operated, manual handbrake? You know when something just works, and always has worked, yet people arse about with it anyway?...

I always think of it as a safety feature to have a purely mechanical handbrake, so that if your brakes fail you still can stop the car without fail. On the other hand, nobody uses a handbrake anymore unless they drive a manual, they just put their transmission inn park. I remember last year someone left their car running outside their house, in park, and the transmission failed and the car rolled down the hill. It ended up in our neighbor's kitchen.

 

[Boffin]

Me. And my car was built in 2008.

In fact, I've never driven a manual transmission vehicle in which you have to depress the clutch to start.

Me neither. Our '95 Volvo 850 didn't have it and nor does our '08 V50.

 

[TheCracker]

I always think of it as a safety feature to have a purely mechanical handbrake, so that if your brakes fail you still can stop the car without fail. On the other hand, nobody uses a handbrake anymore unless they drive a manual, they just put their transmission inn park.

Which in Europe is about 80% of all cars.

Handbrakes usually only operate the rear brakes. In an emergency i doubt that would be enough to stop a car.

I remember last year someone left their car running outside their house, in park, and the transmission failed and the car rolled down the hill. It ended up in our neighbor's kitchen.

To be fair, that can happen in a manual car with a traditional cable operated handbrake.

A few years back, outside our old office, which was situated on a very steep hill with a T-junction at the bottom. A guy visiting parked his 3-series outside and came in to drop something off. His cable snapped and the car went flying down the road. He can't have been parked more than 20 meters from the junction at the bottom of the road, but with the steepness of the hill the car built up enough momentum to send a 5ftx1ftx1ft solid stone gate post flying across the garden of the house opposite the junction. Had the post been any less substantial, the owner of the house would have opened their living room door to find a 3-series sat there watching TV.

 

[homeforsummer]

Handbrakes usually only operate the rear brakes. In an emergency i doubt that would be enough to stop a car.

It's more a case of it being a secondary system should the normal brakes fail. It's not as effective but it's more effective than not having one at all.

Some car magazines actually used to do tests to see how quickly the handbrake could stop the car. Seem to remember some reasonable braking forces being recorded.

Oh, and for the record: I use the handbrake in automatics too. It's there to supplement Park. Park shouldn't really be used on its own, no more than you'd stick a manual car in gear to hold it rather than using the handbrake.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Oh, and for the record: I use the handbrake in automatics too. It's there to supplement Park. Park shouldn't really be used on its own, no more than you'd stick a manual car in gear to hold it rather than using the handbrake.

Yes, I agree totally. I have learned this by observing what happens when a car and a house meet.

To be fair, that can happen in a manual car with a traditional cable operated handbrake.

True, I think you also have to be aware of the situation. It's just that some people don't pay attention and assume their car is perfect.

 

[Gil]

I use the parking/handbrake when I park my Camry with the Auto trans. Because my transmission is not a "kickstand". It is way easier to get the car out of Park if the entire weight of the vehicle is not resting on that pin in the transmission.

Those of you outside the US don't have to do the clutch thing to start your cars.
Here, back in the mid to late '80's some folks were having issues with a phenomenon that was called "unintended acceleration". Audi was the chief culprit at the time.

They pioneered the brake interlock that causes you to have to depress the brake to shift out of park. That concept was added to manual trans cars in the form of a clutch interlock. I remember that my 1982 Nissan did not have this feature, but my 1992 Ford did. The first car I remember with the brake interlock in my personal stable of cars was a 1985 Pontiac 6000.

While the clutch interlock is a pretty good idea, how many of you stick shift drivers park the car in neutral? I have always parked in reverse or second, and set the handbrake. If parallel parking, I always turn the wheels toward the curb.
The one time I parked in neutral, I didn't set the handbrake...and my car had rolled off and bumped into another car. It caused no damage, but my ego was bruised for doing something that stupid.

 

[homeforsummer]

While the clutch interlock is a pretty good idea, how many of you stick shift drivers park the car in neutral?

Me, usually.

Not in my current car, as the handbrake never quite feels strong enough, so I'll either leave it in reverse or first depending on which way my car is facing downhill. If it's on a level, then I'll leave it in neutral.

Even then, if I leave the car in gear the first thing I do when I get in is knock it out of gear so I don't forget before starting the car.

 

[Gil]

I can't remember starting a car with a manual trans too many times without pushing in the clutch.
You only have to step on the floor starter of a '53 Chevy one time while it's in gear without stepping on the clutch to keep you from ever doing it again!

 

[Joey D]

Oh, and for the record: I use the handbrake in automatics too. It's there to supplement Park. Park shouldn't really be used on its own, no more than you'd stick a manual car in gear to hold it rather than using the handbrake.

I always use my handbrake when I park my car, seems like Park puts a ton of stress on the trans.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> Hello! I've been an advocate for a while now and before I posted here, I'm a subscriber.

-> I got this sticker (and pin) from C/D themselves, I'm still contemplating on which car should I stick this to...It might end up on my MacBook Pro...

^ And just so you know, ALL my cars are M/T!!! And I REFUSE to buy any car that is not M/T unless I have no choice (RA2 Odyssey, Land Cruisers 100/200, etc.).

-> Behold my fleet of excellence!

1989 Subaru GL Touring 4WD *my soldier*

2004 Honda S2000 *nuff said*

1985 Toyota Corolla 'Sport' GT-S (AE88/AE86) *best of both worlds*

^ I'm so happy to join in the crusade!

 

[Dennisch]

The press the clutch to start the car and press the brake to pull out of park seem to be American inventions.

The same goes for all the bells that go ringing when you leave your lights on, and your key in the ignition etc etc. And the warning stickers. OMG.



Btw. my car park consists of a manual Golf 2, manual BMW 635csi. Yeey.

And my girlfriend has a 1987 Suzuki Alto, Automatic. Boooh.

 

[Gil]

The press the clutch to start the car and press the brake to pull out of park seem to be American inventions.

The same goes for all the bells that go ringing when you leave your lights on, and your key in the ignition etc etc. And the warning stickers. OMG.



Btw. my car park consists of a manual Golf 2, manual BMW 635csi. Yeey.

And my girlfriend has a 1987 Suzuki Alto, Automatic. Boooh.

Sadly, they are indeed American inventions. However, as I said, It's been a very long time since I tried to start a car with a stick shift, without pushing in the clutch, it's like a reflex.

My son learned it after stomping the brake (unsuccessfully) to stop my old Escort from rolling down the driveway.
He looked down and found the brake pedal on the floor...cause it was the clutch.

 

[Smallhorses]

Handbrakes usually only operate the rear brakes...

Except for those infamous examples of the Citroen Xantia when it was first released, which operated on the front brakes! They were renowned for running off as people would park them after driving for a while, thus heating up the front brake discs, then they'd put the handbrake on, which gripped the hot discs fine to begin with, but became less and less effective as the discs cooled and contracted, leaving the cars free to pootle off down any gradient they happened to have been parked on all by themselves!!!
"Recall" anyone?!!!

 

[Dennisch]

Except for those infamous examples of the Citroen Xantia when it was first released, which operated on the front brakes! They were renowned for running off as people would park them after driving for a while, thus heating up the front brake discs, then they'd put the handbrake on, which gripped the hot discs fine to begin with, but became less and less effective as the discs cooled and contracted, leaving the cars free to pootle off down any gradient they happened to have been parked on all by themselves!!!
"Recall" anyone?!!!

French engineering at it's finest.

 

[salikriaz]

The press the clutch to start the car and press the brake to pull out of park seem to be American inventions.

The same goes for all the bells that go ringing when you leave your lights on, and your key in the ignition etc etc. And the warning stickers. OMG.



Btw. my car park consists of a manual Golf 2, manual BMW 635csi. Yeey.

And my girlfriend has a 1987 Suzuki Alto, Automatic. Boooh.

Does anyone know any reason for having to press the clutch to start? i look like a noob everytime i try to start the car without the clutch in... not really thinking about it. just happens

 

[Dennisch]

Does anyone know any reason for having to press the clutch to start? i look like a noob everytime i try to start the car without the clutch in... not really thinking about it. just happens

So you don't slam into the car parked in front of you, when you have the car in gear.

 

[Gil]

Google "Audi: Unintended acceleration"
Toyota was not the first to experience this problem. And Audi came up with a few reasonable actual solutions. The big one being the Brake interlock.
Not sure if it was them or American manufacturers that came up with the clutch interlock.

My first two regularly driven manual trans cars were a '78 VW Bus and a '69 Austin America.
They were NOT so equipped.

Now a most cars sold in the US have "auto-off" headlights that go off as soon as you turn off the ignition. LOL. And many come with keyless ignition. If you have the key in your pocket, you just have to push the start button to start and stop the car.

 

[salikriaz]

So you don't slam into the car parked in front of you, when you have the car in gear.

hmmm...

Google "Audi: Unintended acceleration"
Toyota was not the first to experience this problem. And Audi came up with a few reasonable actual solutions. The big one being the Brake interlock.
Not sure if it was them or American manufacturers that came up with the clutch interlock.

My first two regularly driven manual trans cars were a '78 VW Bus and a '69 Austin America.
They were NOT so equipped.

Now a most cars sold in the US have "auto-off" headlights that go off as soon as you turn off the ignition. LOL. And many come with keyless ignition. If you have the key in your pocket, you just have to push the start button to start and stop the car.

Audi:Unintended Acceleration

yeah that is a serious concern huh. i'm guessing that's what happened with toyota that one time and it blew up in their faces?

Edit: oh i'm supposed to name my manual car? 1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS

 

[homeforsummer]

"Recall" anyone?!!!

Not half as much of a problem as if you tried to do a handbrake turn in one...

Several 80s/90s bigger Citroens and old Saab 900s had handbrakes working on the front wheels. In many ways it does make sense as the "emergency brake" aspect of it is working on the driven wheels, and also the wheels with the most grip, so it's more effective for slowing you down if the brakes fail.

 

[CSLACR]

Revival.

In all honesty, I think that DCTs deserve their own category, especially for the sake of this thread. They are a cross between automatics and manuals, and shift faster than both.

They aren't really a cross between both, either in function or technology though.
You don't have to move the gear, and you don't engage or disengage the clutch. It's a completely automatic system, the most "manual" thing about it is having to push a button, (pulling a lever).

Have you driven a DSG/DCT-esque transmission in one of these higher end cars?

Just asking because I drove a LP570-4 last year, & that car is certainly more manual than automatic. Start the car, foot off the brake, acts just like a manual & sits there til' you ease on the throttle. On the track in Sport Mode, it won't shift at all until you pull the paddle. And that car downshifts hard like a manual can, when you get that jolt forward. The only thing auto about that car is the "A" button & that is not automatic; the shift speed is something out of the 90's autos, so it was obviously nothing more than an after thought.

Just pointing that out as anything that isn't a gear level & clutch is not automatically an auto.

How anyone can call staying on the brakes on a hill "driving like a manual" is beyond me. The only thing that comes to mind is that they haven't ever once driven a manual.
When I learned how to drive stick, and got to my first hill to pull off of, holding the brakes was about 1% of the difficulty in pulling out, 99% was modulating the gas and clutch pedals properly, immediately after letting go of the brakes.
That's something you have to learn. Holding the brakes before you push the gas pedal and your car drives away? You have to do that in "automatic" "automatics" on steep enough hills. Hell there's one I pull off almost everyday, I have to hold the brakes or I'll roll backwards, in my "fully automatic" with a torque converter, is that suddenly "manual" in any way, shape, or form?

 

[homeforsummer]

When I learned how to drive stick, and got to my first hill to pull off of, holding the brakes was about 1% of the difficulty in pulling out, 99% was modulating the gas and clutch pedals properly, immediately after letting go of the brakes.

While I can do the hopping from brake to clutch/gas thing, in the UK we're taught it's incredibly bad practice to do so when you've a perfectly good handbrake sitting there for such occasions. Hold the car on the handbrake but ready to release, the instant you match gas and clutch to pull away. Much smoother, and saves the pedal dancing.

 

[McLaren]

How anyone can call staying on the brakes on a hill "driving like a manual" is beyond me. The only thing that comes to mind is that they haven't ever once driven a manual.
When I learned how to drive stick, and got to my first hill to pull off of, holding the brakes was about 1% of the difficulty in pulling out, 99% was modulating the gas and clutch pedals properly, immediately after letting go of the brakes.
That's something you have to learn. Holding the brakes before you push the gas pedal and your car drives away? You have to do that in "automatic" "automatics" on steep enough hills. Hell there's one I pull off almost everyday, I have to hold the brakes or I'll roll backwards, in my "fully automatic" with a torque converter, is that suddenly "manual" in any way, shape, or form?

Where on earth did I say anything about driving a Superleggera on a hill?

I simply asked if you have ever driven a car with a proper DSG-esque gearbox & gave you an example of a car with one that behaves exactly like a manual will w/ a cheap Auto-mode after thought, b/c you claimed DSGs are still just autos. Didn't say a word about driving on a hill.

 

[Joey D]

Where on earth did I say anything about driving a Superleggera on a hill?

I simply asked if you have ever driven a car with a proper DSG-esque gearbox & gave you an example of a car with one that behaves exactly like a manual will w/ a cheap Auto-mode after thought, b/c you claimed DSGs are still just autos. Didn't say a word about driving on a hill.

I'll throw it in there though, my double-clutch trans lets my car roll back on hills.

And if I put it in sport mode the cars acts more like a manual too, it'll sit there until I give it gas and if I don't shift it correctly it will jolt around. Although I'm going to guess the Focus is probably way easier to live with in a Lambo when it comes to the transmission though.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I'll throw it in there though, my double-clutch trans lets my car roll back on hills.

And if I put it in sport mode the cars acts more like a manual too, it'll sit there until I give it gas and if I don't shift it correctly it will jolt around. Although I'm going to guess the Focus is probably way easier to live with in a Lambo when it comes to the transmission though.

Maybe, but I've heard that the focus's semi-auto is pretty bad.

 

[Joey D]

Maybe, but I've heard that the focus's semi-auto is pretty bad.

Ford updated the programming and it fixed nearly every issue it had. It actually works quite well now and mine finally was able to be fixed by going to a dealership not ran by idiots.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Ford updated the programming and it fixed nearly every issue it had. It actually works quite well now and mine finally was able to be fixed by going to a dealership not ran by idiots.

That's good to hear. It means I would actually recommend the Focus to a friend, now.

 

[Alex B]

Yes! Finally someone brought this up.
6-Speed!

I can never drive auto on GT5. Seriously, I've gotten so used to manual.

 

[homeforsummer]

Yes! Finally someone brought this up.
6-Speed!

I can never drive auto on GT5. Seriously, I've gotten so used to manual.

...and in the real world...

 

[1241Penguin]

...and in the real world...

Well, I suppose there is a small learning curve if you use an h-shifter and clutch in GT5. At least you get the timings right.

 

[tacom08]

Depends on what car