Save the Manuals!

[dhandeh]

I'm sure everyone can all point to the dipstick in this scenario.

Never in this thread has there been a truer statement.

 

[Zenith]

(Idiocy)

What kind of response do you expect to get from these kinds of posts?

Normally I'm a sucker for these kinds of posts. Normally I'd outline in great detail how my "appliance obsessed" woman could outdrive an ignorant misogynist in a short, stumpy, and woefully inadequate manhood Miata.

Alas, today I can't be bothered. I'll just keep an ear out and my fingers crossed for the thud of the Ban-hammer.

Most people don't belong on the road, period.

And you don't belong on these forums, period.

 

[CSLACR]

Sorry for the delay in response.

*notices CSLACR uses a DFGT*

You're using driving aids every single time you play GT5, just putting that out there.

I see no point being a complete elitist about manual transmissions. Automatics have their place, as do manuals, as do DSGs. *shrug*

Edit: Not to mention... My auto has a manual mode. If I drive it only in manual mode, does that make it a stick? Nope, that makes it an automatic with manual gear selection.

Not sure what my wheel choice has to do with this. If I could have afforded a G27 that's what I would have.
But even then you have to remember in GT5 you pay an exact, pre-determined price for driving with a true manual.

Driver skill has largely been taken out of the equation in GT5, (in regards to manual vs auto w manual input) and I'm very against that, btw.

I don't find them a hassle, ever.

DSG is not an AT, it is a dual clutch system that can be driven either automatically or manually. It gives direct drive. An AT uses a Torque Converter. Very different lets get that clear...

I wouldnt put the DSG or AT in the same catergory as driving aids. It is purely a technological invention that allows faster and more consistent gear changes.

Driving aids are there basically to correct the inputs of the driver. An AT is there to Chang the gear ratio automatically. Not the same thing.

Age old argument, that a DSG is somehow not automatic because it uses newer technology then older automatics.
It's like saying electronic fuel injection is not a fuel system, because fuel systems use carburetors.

Pretty confident in the dictionary you will not find "uses a Torque Converter" as a definition of automatic.
Automatic got it's name because it shifts for you, automatically. The torque converter has absolutely nothing to do with the term.

My car has a torque converter, and yet I can hold gears, it's not a manual though, it's an automatic with manual override. To say anything else would be silly.
DSG's do exactly the same thing, using newer technology, that is all. Some have higher allowances for manual input, some do not, all shift for you, ergo - automatic.
I'll give you credit for automatic with manual input, that is all.

 

[Jubby]

Interesting discussion. I believe I've found the best of both worlds. It gains the ease of an automatic with similarities of a DSG while holding a basic component identity of (2) manual transmissions(dual clutch).

I currently drive a car with a Powershift transmission, and it's versatile, sporty, and gives better gas mileage than any petrol car in the US. I love it. Any time you can get upwards of 40-45MPG and have the option of being sporty is great. You may not have as many options as a DSG with manual mode, but you can choose whether to use 4, 5, or 6 gears. The transmission computer learns your style and plans shifting based off of it.

I think this is another way to save the manuals.

 

[McLaren]

Age old argument, that a DSG is somehow not automatic because it uses newer technology then older automatics.
It's like saying electronic fuel injection is not a fuel system, because fuel systems use carburetors.

Pretty confident in the dictionary you will not find "uses a Torque Converter" as a definition of automatic.
Automatic got it's name because it shifts for you, automatically. The torque converter has absolutely nothing to do with the term.

My car has a torque converter, and yet I can hold gears, it's not a manual though, it's an automatic with manual override. To say anything else would be silly.
DSG's do exactly the same thing, using newer technology, that is all. Some have higher allowances for manual input, some do not, all shift for you, ergo - automatic.
I'll give you credit for automatic with manual input, that is all.

Have you driven a DSG/DCT-esque transmission in one of these higher end cars?

Just asking because I drove a LP570-4 last year, & that car is certainly more manual than automatic. Start the car, foot off the brake, acts just like a manual & sits there til' you ease on the throttle. On the track in Sport Mode, it won't shift at all until you pull the paddle. And that car downshifts hard like a manual can, when you get that jolt forward. The only thing auto about that car is the "A" button & that is not automatic; the shift speed is something out of the 90's autos, so it was obviously nothing more than an after thought.

Just pointing that out as anything that isn't a gear level & clutch is not automatically an auto.

 

[Perfect Balance]

And that car downshifts hard like a manual can, when you get that jolt forward.

Wait, really?

It doesn't rev match, so on downshifts you still have the problem that most automatics have with the jolt forward, that under hard driving conditions is enough to upset the car?


That sucks actually. Ferrari fixed that problem.

In fact, even the Evo 10 SST rev matches.

 

[McLaren]

Wait, really?

It doesn't rev match, so on downshifts you still have the problem that most automatics have with the jolt forward, that under hard driving conditions is enough to upset the car?


That sucks actually. Ferrari fixed that problem.

In fact, even the Evo 10 SST rev matches.

I'm sure it's fixed with the new 7-Speed transmission in the Aventador, but nope, no rev-match. E-Gear has barely advanced since it's introduction, so it's quite behind Porsche & Ferrari's systems.

I should note that car doesn't always downshift hard, & I'd reckon it's more of a result of me not being used to the stopping power that car has, b/c the first 2 laps coming off the straight where I'm told to downshift, I'm also trying to pinpoint how much pressure to give the brake pedal (it's like 50/50; you either slowly come to a stop or you flat out stop) & may be downshifting a tad too early. It didn't help being told to brake (around 40% input) at Marker 3, when you figure out that you could brake harder (say 70% input) at Marker 2 & not lose your speed from trying not to brake too fast at the previous marker (50-60% input resulting in slowing down to quickly for the turn). If I'm making any sense from that.

 

[niky]

A dual-clutch box is an automatic. It's not a torque-converter automatic, but it's still an automatic. The computer needs to electronically modulate the clutches and throttle to prevent damaging them, and, obviously, once starting off, no dual-clutch system will allow you to slide, slip or drop the clutch yourself... it does it for you.

The advantage of the DCT over a traditional automatic or manual is faster and smoother gearshifts. Period. There are cars with torque-converters which allow you to manually select gears and to hold them as well as DCTs... and DCTs which are just as unwilling to allow you to shift beyond a certain range as torque-converter automatics. Hell, the Fiesta DCT doesn't allow you to shift at all.

A DCT is a fascinating piece of kit, but coming from or coming to a complete stop, it can be clumsy, and it doesn't allow for clutch modulation at all. (the whole point of automating the clutch is to prevent stupid drivers from burning them... not that they don't anyway... )

 

[Danoff]

A dual-clutch box is an automatic. It's not a torque-converter automatic, but it's still an automatic.

The advantage of the DCT over a traditional automatic or manual is faster and smoother gearshifts. Period.

Elimination of the torque converter as well.

the whole point of automating the clutch is to prevent stupid drivers from burning them... not that they don't anyway...

This is the real problem with manuals. Everyone thinks they're good at it, in my experience very few people who drive stick are adept at it.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Okay, from now on, if someone wants to join, they should PM me, because I don't want to scroll through all of this healthy debate. Just remember, we are for manuals, not against autos.

 

[blah blah blah]

I'm in! Recruited by CSLACR .

 

[DigitalBaka]

I'm in! Recruited by CSLACR .

Ditto! PM being sent. 👍 Also, pic of my crappy and rusty but still fun-as-hell BMW with smile-stick.



Bad pic from when I first got it. It has since been cleaned up some. Been working on the engine more than the rust and dust. Needs a valve adjustment and probably a whole new exhaust but it will still embarrass a newer car.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Ditto! PM being sent. 👍 Also, pic of my crappy and rusty but still fun-as-hell BMW with smile-stick.



Bad pic from when I first got it. It has since been cleaned up some. Been working on the engine more than the rust and dust. Needs a valve adjustment and probably a whole new exhaust but it will still embarrass a newer car.

6 Series? Looks like Pacific Blue Leather to me.

 

[DigitalBaka]

86 535I actually. Not sure of the interior color other than dusty, crusty, cracked and generally beat to heck. Exterior is Arktisblau and has also seen better days.

Been working very slowly getting it cleaned up. Washed down the interior, gotten the leather softened up some, taken out that ugly old cell and replaced the radio with stock. Engine had the entire ignition system replaced, intake broken down and cleaned, some holes patched in the exhaust and I'm replacing the entire vacuum hose mess. Once it warms up some I will do the valve adjustment and see about replacing the exhaust.

The gearbox is actually holding on pretty well. Getting close to 200k miles and still feels good.

 

[Boffin]

Hmmmm... Bruce the steelworker is probably so far into the closet that he's using his 700HP auto HSV as a cover for the fact that he wishes he could have fun driving a Miata instead.
Here's proof, and you can't argue with Simpsons logic!

Bruce:


Steelworkers:


Would you say that my keyring, because it has a Miata key on it, makes me a girl?
Especially if it's next to the keys to a heavy-clutched, non-power steering, 1980s 911 that my wife can, but opts not to, drive as it's "too much of a boys car"?
My wife, who drives both the Miata, and her daily driver a 5-speed Fiat 500, would certainly vouch for the fact that I'm not a girl.

Both cars are equally fun to drive, but the Miata is by far easier to drive hard.

Your views, and those of Bruce the Steelworker are as outdated as Homer's.
Making sexual judgements based on a car is just plain stupid.
Is every (mostly automatic, no less) Mercedes M-Class driver gay because George Michael has repeatedly crashed one?
Is this car gay because it was a collaboration with a gay designer?
I'll let you decide.

Hoooooold on a minute. Are these directed at me?

If so, you may have missed the

Not my opinion

in my statement. I am pro MX5, unlike alot of men in Australia. People laugh at me when I say I'd love to have a Suzuki Cappuccino.

Did you perhaps miss my other post directed to fiftw on the subject?

 

[Jubby]

The advantage of the DCT over a traditional automatic or manual is faster and smoother gearshifts. Period. There are cars with torque-converters which allow you to manually select gears and to hold them as well as DCTs... and DCTs which are just as unwilling to allow you to shift beyond a certain range as torque-converter automatics. Hell, the Fiesta DCT doesn't allow you to shift at all.

A DCT is a fascinating piece of kit, but coming from or coming to a complete stop, it can be clumsy, and it doesn't allow for clutch modulation at all.

Have you (or anyone else) driven a Fiesta with a "Automatic"(Called a Powershift)? A 2012 Focus would suffice.

 

[niky]

Have you (or anyone else) driven a Fiesta with a "Automatic"(Called a Powershift)? A 2012 Focus would suffice.

I've driven the 2010 and 2011 Powershift Focus TDCis and the current Powershift Fiesta 1.6 both on and off the racetrack.

The Focus Powershift features a wet-clutch system which is more robust and can stand up to some abuse, though it still suffers from performance loss when heat-soaked. This system allows you to manually shift via the +/- shift gate, but response is slow and it will over-ride commands for shifts if you fall beyond a narrow rpm range. Some torque-converter automatics are a little more lenient because the converter can slur the changes and absorb the shock. Also, shifting two gears at once confuses the transmission and results in a very long shift... longer than in a conventional automatic...

This is because the transmission has the next gears up and down pre-loaded on the other shaft, but a two gear change involves two separate gears on the same shaft. This means you wait for the robotic clutch to both disengage and re-engage, unlike with a single shift, where one clutch engages exactly as the other disengages, resulting in an incredibly quick shift.

If you let it shift by itself, it will allow you to rev out the engine and the shifts themselves are (again) incredibly quick. On the racetrack, I have little complaint. (except for the performance killing heat-soak, but this is a common problem for autos on the track) It's only in on road situations where it's more economical to skip shift, or when you're coasting down to a stop in a high gear then have to accelerate again, that it becomes problematic. And coasting to a stop, the point at which the 1st gear clutch disengages is very noticeable, as the disengagement is harsh. And Ford has changed the calibration between year models. The 2010 I last drove had sharp response and near-perfect performance. The 2011 I drove was more hesitant, had a more laggy feel and was slower.

----

The Fiesta DCT is another animal entirely. Since the dry clutches can't take much torque, engagement when coming from a stop takes much longer, as the electronics juggle things to prevent clutch damage. It's even more confused than the Focus Powershift in traffic situations, and is almost recalcitrant in the way it operates, much to the displeasure of many owners. It sometimes shifts when you don't want to, and refuses to shift when you do.

Hill Assist Mode actually helps sharpen shifts, and I've once or twice resorted to "L" mode when I wanted some extra pep, but that's too extreme for regular use. "L" didn't make the Fiesta any quicker to accelerate (when we were doing 0-100 testing), but it makes for more aggressive gear holding, which is great on the racetrack.

Fiesta DCT clutches are proving a little problematic, which is why Ford has now released replacement clutch packs as a maintenance item. Something which Honda should have done for the Fit/Insight CVT so many years ago, to keep people from moaning about the fragility of that particular transmission (clutch pack failure requires total CVT replacement... ).

 

[Joey D]

Have you (or anyone else) driven a Fiesta with a "Automatic"(Called a Powershift)? A 2012 Focus would suffice.

I have a 2012 Focus and my trans is awful, but that's more of a manufacturing issue than anything. All the other 2012 Focus I've driven haven't had an issue and was actually very nice to drive.

 

[Jubby]

I asked because I have an '11 Fiesta. I'd agree with you, Niky, that 1st and 2nd gear are complete rubbish. It's so short (in D) and takes too long to engage the power. Once you get moving, like you elaborated, you have options to get it going.

Joey D, they have had some issues, but some have been mistaking this transmission as an "automatic". It is at sight, but in terms of components, it's definetly not a standard automatic. You almost have to drive it with the mindset that it's a manual transmission you cannot force a shift.

I've worked, intellectually, some on the side with buffs for this car/transmission, and you really have to drive it for a thousand miles or more before the computer understands your driving style. I agree. It's not often that a transmission billed as "automatic" gives you more reliability(which is partially to be determined) and better gas mileage than its manual counterpart. I think if the industry is forcing the automation, this is better than a traditional automatic.

 

[Joey D]

I have over 15,000 miles on mine and have had two transmission updates. I'm pretty sure the trans in mechanically bad since two of my friends have a Focus and their's work flawlessly.

I know you have to drive it like a manual too. It confused the hell out of me when I was at a stop light and the car rolled back.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

In all honesty, I think that DCTs deserve their own category, especially for the sake of this thread. They are a cross between automatics and manuals, and shift faster than both.

 

[niky]

Both agree and disagree.

DCTs are slightly different from TC autos, but so are CVTs, but in principle, all three are the same, vehicles that don't require driver intervention to change gears or actuate clutches.

And if we're talking the ability to change gears, all three will give you that.

-

Personally, I like DCTs, and as soon as clutch pack replacements become cheap and plentiful, I think they'll be the easiest kind of transmission to own, in the long haul... but I still have a soft spot for CVTs, as nothing, absolutely nothing, is as smooth and fluid as a CVT... which may be boring for us drivers, but for passengers, it's heavenly.

 

[Gil]

So, I was just thinking about this thing.
How many of you remember being able to start a care with a manual trans, WITHOUT having to depress the clutch?
How many of you remember what was the precipitating factor that caused the development of the "clutch-interlock" device?

 

[Smallhorses]

So, I was just thinking about this thing.
How many of you remember being able to start a care with a manual trans, WITHOUT having to depress the clutch?
How many of you remember what was the precipitating factor that caused the development of the "clutch-interlock" device?

I still own one!
The '81 911 can be started quite easily by poking one's hand through the drivers window, especially as the ignition key goes in on the left side of the steering wheel! I'm especially careful not to leave that one in gear! Then again, it's something we were taught from day 1 when we learned to drive, that you should always start the car with the clutch depressed, and I'd never come across a car that had a clutch interlock until I came out to the US, and bought my '95 Miata, and I drove lots of things in UK, right up to 2000 models as rentals!
I've no idea when they became mandatory, but obviously it was somewhere in the intervening 14 years betwixt one of my cars and the other.
Not sure what exactly caused the development, but I'm sure there were plenty of untrained or improperly trained drivers that "starter-bounced" their cars into innumerate stationary objects, bollards, garage walls, cyclists, pedestrians, etc.

 

[Zenith]

So, I was just thinking about this thing.
How many of you remember being able to start a care with a manual trans, WITHOUT having to depress the clutch?

Yeah, I remember doing it this afternoon

 

[RTSolvalou]

Oh, thought you meant the book you get with the car.
Disappoint, as a love a good read of a manual.

 

[homeforsummer]

How many of you remember being able to start a care with a manual trans, WITHOUT having to depress the clutch?

Me. And my car was built in 2008.

In fact, I've never driven a manual transmission vehicle in which you have to depress the clutch to start.

 

[TheCracker]

Me. And my car was built in 2008.

In fact, I've never driven a manual transmission vehicle in which you have to depress the clutch to start.

👍 The only one i can remember having to do so in was a Hyundai.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Me. And my car was built in 2008.

In fact, I've never driven a manual transmission vehicle in which you have to depress the clutch to start.

2007 Audi A6 2.0 TDi.. have to push the clutch through the floorboard (almost) before it'll actually fire... then disengage the worlds slowest hydraulic handbrake.

 

[homeforsummer]

then disengage the worlds slowest hydraulic handbrake.

That's a thing... sod the manual/auto gearbox thing, what was ever wrong with a regular, cable-operated, manual handbrake? You know when something just works, and always has worked, yet people arse about with it anyway?...