Save the Manuals!

[Ibonibo]

Judging by what others have said in this thread, working a manual trans takes no additional effort as it is more or less second nature. I can agree with them on that because it's the same way with anything overly repetitive.

And the only reason anyone remembers is because successful troll is successful.

True but I know many people driving manual and driving it wrong (as like 90% of the seniors). There is so much that you can do wrong driving a manual.
You can bust from the clutch plates, to the crankshaft.

Also:

I have. I think manuals are antiquated technology for sports cars. If you're talking about semi-trucks, that's a different story. I'm happy to see them die in fast cars.

BS.
On trucks a clever automatic box makes way more sense than on a sports car.
Leaving the clutch out of a sport cars denies your ability to play with the weight distribution of the car, which for exemple is very useful on oversteers.

Automatics on sportcar is because the majority of the people who can afford them could not drive them properly or fast otherwise.
The same is launch control : dumbing down a car so even the fatest turd can be fast.

In the future you will probably get it in your favour though, but also will be relieved of other functions the driver nowadays has.

 

[Zenith]

BS.
On trucks a clever automatic box makes way more sense than on a sports car.

Obviously you've never paid attention to a large truck driving. They need stick shifts. Listen to them sometime. They're constantly shifting.

Leaving the clutch out of a sport cars denies your ability to play with the weight distribution of the car, which for exemple is very useful on oversteers.

Denies your ability? What are you talking about?

There are far better ways to control the body of your car than using the clutch. Hell, I'd consider that pretty poor form.

Automatics on sportcar is because the majority of the people who can afford them could not drive them properly or fast otherwise.
The same is launch control : dumbing down a car so even the fatest turd can be fast.

Paddle operated gearboxes are on sports cars because they're undeniably faster. If you lap an H-pattern Ferrari 458 against a paddle operated 458, the first one will go slower. People have been using automatics since the 1960's for drag racing because they shift more quickly than a person can.

You know what's faster than a turd with launch control? A good driver with launch control. Whether it makes it easy is irrelevant. Fast drivers want to get off the line quicker

In the future you will probably get it in your favour though, but also will be relieved of other functions the driver nowadays has.

I assume you think that power steering is for pussies too? How about transmission synchros?

Fact: Manual transmissions are slower than paddle operated transmissions.

 

[Ibonibo]

Obviously you've never paid attention to a large truck driving. They need stick shifts. Listen to them sometime. They're constantly shifting.

I know that they have a lot more gears! That's why I said what I said.

Denies your ability? What are you talking about?

There are far better ways to control the body of your car than using the clutch. Hell, I'd consider that pretty poor form.

Well if you don't know what i am talking about, no futher need to detail as you won't believe it because i won't give you a wikipedia source

Paddle operated gearboxes are on sports cars because they're undeniably faster. If you lap an H-pattern Ferrari 458 against a paddle operated 458, the first one will go slower. People have been using automatics since the 1960's for drag racing because they shift more quickly than a person can.

I never said they would be slower, just gave one of the many reasons why automatics are becoming more dominant

You know what's faster than a turd with launch control? A good driver with launch control. Whether it makes it easy is irrelevant. Fast drivers want to get off the line quicker

Well that didn't save those "turds" from crashing their gearboxes even with launch control, that's when you need to use the launchcontrol at walmart, pumpstations or on any given situation. Why do you think GTR35 had cancelled their launchcontrol after a very short time.

I assume you think that power steering is for pussies too? How about transmission synchros?

First is safety revelant the second is for the longetivity of the gearbox. Automatics are not in one of the both above

Fact: Manual transmissions are slower than paddle operated transmissions.

Not true! Double clutch automatics (which mecanically are in fact automated manual gearboxes) are faster than manual.
The first "paddle" automatics were slow and still are (look Audi tiptronic or Mercs)

 

[homeforsummer]

Obviously you've never paid attention to a large truck driving. They need stick shifts. Listen to them sometime. They're constantly shifting.

Actually, in Europe at least there's quite a mix. My best mate drives trucks for a living, and in the last few years he's used manual trucks, semi-autos, and fully-autos.

Apparently in the truck community opinion is completely split on what's actually best - manuals give the greatest control (when you have 16 speeds to choose from sometimes it pays to have a human brain deciding exactly what gear is needed next, judged entirely on the road conditions, how much load is being carried etc).

Semi-manuals have no clutch (or to really confuse, have an optional clutch) and can change automatically, but drivers can pre-select gears, and then either confirm them or decide on a different one before it changes. Many auto trucks are the same, but like modern cars use intelligent electronics. Though according to my friend, they can occasionally mis-judge the load and leave you in the wrong gear. Though some autos allow you to pre-select too, so they're kind of semi-semi-autos...

So yes, all very complicated and a world away from cars, but amusingly with some of the same end results - full manual still gives a driver the most control if they're the sort of driver who can make best use of them, semi-autos make the job easier but still give you control, and autos are easiest, but can occasionally hunt around for gears.

 

[fitftw]

Boy I sure do love trudging along in 4th when I need to be in 2nd or 3rd and my girlfriend's Eclipse takes 3 years to change gears and I have to floor it just to make it downshift. Autos are brainless unless you spend over $25,000. That seems to be where autos stop acting like idiots, but they're still pretty damn unintelligent and slow.

 

[Zenith]

Interesting info, HFS. I'm guessing American truckers aren't huge on switching.

Snip

I know what clutch kicks are, thank you very much. To say that without a clutch you are "denied" the ability to control the weight of the car is ludicrous.

Whether or not launch control is used improperly by owners is irrelevant. It's not just a tool to be used by idiots, it makes cars faster.

Safety and transmission wear? But if you were a good driver you wouldn't need that!

 

[MatskiMonk]

Boy I sure do love trudging along in 4th when I need to be in 2nd or 3rd and my girlfriend's Eclipse takes 3 years to change gears and I have to floor it just to make it downshift. Autos are brainless unless you spend over $25,000. That seems to be where autos stop acting like idiots, but they're still pretty damn unintelligent and slow.

In what situation would you be in 4th when you needed to be in 2nd, when you weren't going to have to nail anyway, and nail it fast enough for the half second gear change to make a difference?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I don't know if its been covered before and I am sorry for not reading every post, but autos have a place in this world, or at least a place in mine. I learnt on a manwell so its not like I am an idiot who can't drive, but yes, I rock an auto. A 250hp paddleshift auto. If I lived in the country, I would consider a manual over a slushbox, but the simple matter is I live in a built up, hilly part of Sydney and constant handbrake hillstarts in a traffic jam would tire me in a matter of minutes, no matter what car I had. Sometimes its down to living conditions.

When I was the OP's age, I was all about petrolheadism as well. I told myself my first car would be a Porsche 944 and life would be sweet. Fast forward to me getting my licence and had a good idea of how the roads were and my relationship with traffic and what I needed a car for and while I could afford a 944, an MX5, a 3 Series or a Peugeot 205 gti, I simply couldnt fathom getting one.

Its not about OOHHHHH SAVE MANUALS BECUZ PPL R DUM N CANT DRYVE, its about time and place. If you are devoted to finding a biting point a squillion times in a city just to get around with mundane errands, it doesnt make you more of a petrolhead because you "put up with it so on the off chance you are on a nice road, everything comes together", it just makes you a little crazy.
I will have a manual one day. A day where I have a slushbox for normal daily grind.

I don't understand this business of "It works just fine for me. I can manage driving stick in heavy traffic."

Yes of course it works, we're not in the stone age of ergonomics. For someone who just needs their car to transport them (like nearly all car owners) an automatic is superior in every respect.

Just because it works, doesn't mean it can't be made better.

It's like those old men who think that the US military should still be using the M1 Garand rifle because it "worked for them."

Also worth noting that this is not an "Auto vs. Manual" thread. This is a thread about "saving" the manuals.

I would like to say that I do think automatics have their benefits, but I feel that carmakers should offer manuals as an option. I have nothing against automatics, and they are very useful sometimes, but I think manuals should be offered as well.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

Why do you think GTR35 had cancelled their launchcontrol after a very short time.

What are you talking about? Launch control is still being offered on all versions of the R35 GT-R because supposedly it no longer strips apart first gear with overuse. The current ones have clocked 0-60 with launch control in under 3 seconds.

 

[homeforsummer]

I would like to say that I do think automatics have their benefits, but I feel that carmakers should offer manuals as an option. I have nothing against automatics, and they are very useful sometimes, but I think manuals should be offered as well.

If people aren't buying them, manufacturers have zero reason to offer them. It's not about whether they "should" offer them for the people that won't buy them anyway, it has to be commercially viable.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

If people aren't buying them, manufacturers have zero reason to offer them. It's not about whether they "should" offer them for the people that won't buy them anyway, it has to be commercially viable.

Okay, but I feel that a certain demographic (the same group who runs the car magazines) will praise automakers who continue to offer manuals. I also think that carmakers like Mazda and BMW who pride themselves on fun cars must offer manuals in order to continue to appeal to enthusiasts.

 

[homeforsummer]

Okay, but I feel that a certain demographic (the same group who runs the car magazines) will praise automakers who continue to offer manuals. I also think that carmakers like Mazda and BMW who pride themselves on fun cars must offer manuals in order to continue to appeal to enthusiasts.

Again, a manufacturer, even one like BMW or Mazda, need not offer something if it doesn't see demand.

Of course, many still offer manuals anyway, particularly in Europe where we drive a lot more small cars, where manuals are cheaper to build and therefore less expensive to buy. Nobody wants to pay an extra grand on a six grand car. On a sixty grand car, not only does an extra grand for DSG or something not matter, but with all that equipment and luxury, changing gears yourself is pretty archaic. Nobody wants a manual 5-Series these days, and even if they did it'd be worth five grand less when you sell it because second hand buyers don't want it either.

It depends on the market segment, but by and large, manual transmissions are disappearing from big cars or high performance cars. They'll take a lot longer to disappear from small sports cars like the MX5, or cheap city cars and small family cars.

 

[McLaren]

Okay, but I feel that a certain demographic (the same group who runs the car magazines) will praise automakers who continue to offer manuals. I also think that carmakers like Mazda and BMW who pride themselves on fun cars must offer manuals in order to continue to appeal to enthusiasts.

Although they will, (BMW confirmed the US will be the only market to have an optional manual gearbox in the M5), the companies can not build cars solely based on the "fun" appeal. What's fun to you may not be fun to others.

As with BMW as well, they have already noted that the manual gearbox will be dead in the M5 after this generation, partially due to...

We’ll remind you that BMW has previously warned customers that this might be the last M5 with a manual, as the company wants to make efforts in other directions rather than developing a manual that can handle all that power and torque just for the US market.

In plain words, as HFS said, there's no demand for it, so there's also no reason to pool money into developing stronger manual transmissions. Esp. if it is for 1 market where the Auto-sales outnumber the Manual-sales greatly.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Fair enough, but I would like it if fun cars were still available with manuals. I would probably be willing to pay 1 or 2 thousand dollars more for a manual and sport package over a torque converter auto with manumatic function. The only reason I say probably is because I'm 16 and have never bought or considered buying a car in my life.

 

[Zenith]

Fair enough, but I would like it if fun cars were still available with manuals. I would probably be willing to pay 1 or 2 thousand dollars more for a manual and sport package over a torque converter auto with manumatic function. The only reason I say probably is because I'm 16 and have never bought or considered buying a car in my life.

I think we all want that. The point some people are trying to make is that signing a petition isn't going to help.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I think we all want that. The point some people are trying to make is that signing a petition isn't going to help.

Where do you suggest we start?

 

[Zenith]

Where do you suggest we start?

See above 👍

The best one I've seen is to simply buy cars with a manual transmission. It's really the most an enthusiast can do. Let the manufacturers know that the demand is there and they'll cater to it for as long as it remains profitable.

 

[SpartanG]

If your argument against manuals is that automatic/paddle shifts are faster anyway, you are completely missing the point of a manual. The whole point of still driving manuals is to feel more connected to the machine surrounding you, to feel the power of the engine and connection of the transmission. You have to be more in stride with the car. No computers or electronic bits controlling the driving, only your feet and hands. Quite a sublime experience if you ask me.

I agree though that only sports cars really need manuals. A commuter sedan doesn't need it.

 

[Joey D]

Where do you suggest we start?

You need to start by buying brand new cars with manual transmissions. Past that there's really no way to save them. Some enthusiast will tend to get all up in arms about the death of the manual, but the fact is they typically buy used cars.

In a world economy where every dollar counts, automakers are going to do whatever makes them the most money. If that means ditching a manual in favour of a better double clutch automatic then they are going to do it. And as someone who owns stock in the auto companies, I would rather seem them make money then not.

 

[Boffin]

A manual Miata is still "manlier" than an automatic anything, just on principle of how much more effort and patience it takes.

RRRAAAAHHH I'm a MAN!
I like to be burdened with things that take EFFORT because laziness is for GIRLS!

#powerthirst

Sooo I guess an elevator is a girly thing? Stairs are so masculine...

Guys are never about being lazy are they. I bet you cook every night for your gf, clean the house, pay the bills, open ever single door for her and almost carry her everywhere because your a man and she's a girl so she doesn't know the definition of 'effort'.

And I would think girls have far more patience than the average Joe.

And of course giving birth to a child is just a walk in the park... 💡

 

[Azuremen]

Boy I sure do love trudging along in 4th when I need to be in 2nd or 3rd and my girlfriend's Eclipse takes 3 years to change gears and I have to floor it just to make it downshift. Autos are brainless unless you spend over $25,000. That seems to be where autos stop acting like idiots, but they're still pretty damn unintelligent and slow.

So you are complaining about automatics being slow in cars that are mostly intended for cheap economy pods? Crazy. Not to mention you are wrong about that anyhow, generally, as new automatics are pretty slick.

And using an Eclipse, a well known pile of fail, as the example isn't really helping your case here.

 

[Boffin]

I would like to say that I do think automatics have their benefits, but I feel that carmakers should offer manuals as an option. I have nothing against automatics, and they are very useful sometimes, but I think manuals should be offered as well.

Well then its all about driving markets. The more demand, the more car companies will sell manuals.

I really don't think a petition on a GT fan forum will sway much vote. Car journos generally are of the same opinion of most car enthusiasts who like a 3 pedal option, so touching on the subject in editorials, new car news and in road reviews help to keep manuals alive.

Some car makers prefer to give their sportier cars a double clutch sports shift because they don't think the mechanics would withstand some of the worse drivers than buy their cars, which would then wrongly be derived as unreliablity so they decide to cut the crap and offer a faster 'box with less potential for mechanical troubles.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

So you are complaining about automatics being slow in cars that are mostly intended for cheap economy pods? Crazy. Not to mention you are wrong about that anyhow, generally, as new automatics are pretty slick.

And using an Eclipse, a well known pile of fail, as the example isn't really helping your case here.

Yup.

My auto listens to me and it's not particularly new either (introduced in this application in '06). Sure, in/out of 1st take about 3/4 of a second to happen but aside from that it's all right when I tell it, whether that be with my right foot or with my hand.

Actually, him using an Eclipse as an example of why automatics are bad would be rather like me attempting to use the '10+ Legacy gearbox as an example why sticks are bad. A good auto is much, much better than a bad stick, and the same goes the other way.

 

[niky]

And either way... CVTs (except for the droning) are the bomb if we're looking at transmissions as a means of controlling torque output at the wheels.

Still... this is beside the point. I've not signed on to any of these petitions because... what's the point? People who can afford expensive cars can afford expensive gearboxes. In our particularly limited market, high end manual variants sell like Hummers at an Al Gore seminar. It just doesn't work out.

But, cars that are actually fun to drive... cars that are light, simple, affordable and immediate, with little extraneous luxury weighing them down... those still come with manuals. Cars like the Mazda Miata, the Mazda2, the Honda Fit (moreso the older one than the current) still have sticks... and pretty decent ones, to boot.

There's little chance that manufacturers will drop manuals completely, not as long as we still use gasoline engines. The only question is whether they'll be available on that expensive dream car you're lusting after. But if you're not rich enough to afford it, what does it matter, anyway?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

And if you can afford it, what's to stop you from having it redone to accommodate what you want?

 

[niky]

Hello, Ford? I'd like to order that sequential gearbox for my Focus, please...

 

[Smallhorses]

Lol ohhhh the irony. Here in Australia, no matter how big the bulge in your pants is, if you are brandishing the keys to an MX5/Miata/Eunos, you are, scientifically, a girl.

Not my opinion, but Bruce, the steel worker from Cootamundra with his 700hp auto HSV would certainly think that way...

Hmmmm... Bruce the steelworker is probably so far into the closet that he's using his 700HP auto HSV as a cover for the fact that he wishes he could have fun driving a Miata instead.
Here's proof, and you can't argue with Simpsons logic!

Bruce:


Steelworkers:


Would you say that my keyring, because it has a Miata key on it, makes me a girl?
Especially if it's next to the keys to a heavy-clutched, non-power steering, 1980s 911 that my wife can, but opts not to, drive as it's "too much of a boys car"?
My wife, who drives both the Miata, and her daily driver a 5-speed Fiat 500, would certainly vouch for the fact that I'm not a girl.

Both cars are equally fun to drive, but the Miata is by far easier to drive hard.

Your views, and those of Bruce the Steelworker are as outdated as Homer's.
Making sexual judgements based on a car is just plain stupid.
Is every (mostly automatic, no less) Mercedes M-Class driver gay because George Michael has repeatedly crashed one?
Is this car gay because it was a collaboration with a gay designer?
I'll let you decide.

 

[homeforsummer]

Is every (mostly automatic, no less) Mercedes M-Class driver gay because George Michael has repeatedly crashed one?

Not gay. Clueless, perhaps, but not necessarily gay

 

[TheCracker]

Wait a minute.. George Michael is gay!?!

 

[fitftw]

Thank you, Smallhorses, for saying what I couldn't have.