Save the Manuals!

[Perfect Balance]

Driving that stretch with an automatic was never an issue to me because then I could enjoy my coffee and relax a bit more, rather than wonder how my left knee was going to hold up

I just tell people they should spend a day driving around LA during peak hours and they'll understand instantly why an automatic or automated DSG would be nice.

Weren't nearly all of the vehicles you've owned in the past, manual? Are you just getting tired of them or do you still have a preference for manuals, but you see the appeal of automatics?


I drove my old car through downtown Washington D.C. for a day a few time. Yeah, I could see why an automatic would be "nice", but not nice enough that I would give up a trans that is nice all of the time for one that is nice in traffic.

 

[homeforsummer]

I just tell people they should spend a day driving around LA during peak hours and they'll understand instantly why an automatic or automated DSG would be nice.

London too. Or New York. There's a very good reason taxis in cities like NYC or London are all automatic and not manual...

 

[plate88]

I work for a company that makes engines mounts for new Honda's and Toyota's. As an example, the 2012 Civic, we'll ship 1560 engine mounts for automatics and only 90-150 engine mounts for manuals in a day. So needless to say, the manuals are dwindling away. I like my manuals mainly in sports cars and not so much in trucks, suv's, and sedans anyhow. Some cars should at least have the option and some not.

 

[White_Zeal]

Add me in, Proud Owner of 4 manual transmission'd cars , wont do autos, tired of putting transmissions in

 

[Joel]

I would like to learn to drive a stick, but I have no car to practice on. "My" car is a Corolla with a 4 speed auto, Mom's car is a Golf TDI with 6 speed DSG, and dad's car is about to be a VW Touareg with 8 speed DSG. I don't have a proper stick shift to practice on.

Also, I don't think I'd ever buy a stick. In 5 to 10 years when I'm out of university and actually looking into purchasing a new(ish) car, DSG and similar type transmissions will probably become the norm. I don't think there will be many cars available with a 6 speed manual, until you get into things like the Corvette, Viper, etc.

 

[SuperShouden]

Spyker has started putting flappy paddles alongside their manual and automatic transmissions...With a Spyker, that's like having chocolate sauce AND BBQ sauce on your ice cream...or on your t-bone steak.

 

[homeforsummer]

Spyker has started putting flappy paddles alongside their manual and automatic transmissions...With a Spyker, that's like having chocolate sauce AND BBQ sauce on your ice cream...or on your t-bone steak.

That's come as a result of using even more Audi bits. To be honest, the best reason to have a manual Spyker is for the absolute work of art manual gear shifter.

 

[SuperShouden]

Yes. I thought the only Audi with the flappy paddles was the R8...but..I guess the R8 uses the 4.2L V8, as well. Still...it's stupid to have both. I guess, however, you could always just either remove or not use the flappy paddles.

 

[homeforsummer]

Yes. I thought the only Audi with the flappy paddles was the R8...but..I guess the R8 uses the 4.2L V8, as well. Still...it's stupid to have both. I guess, however, you could always just either remove or not use the flappy paddles.

I've not looked into it but I very much doubt the manual version has flappy paddles too...

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Yes. I thought the only Audi with the flappy paddles was the R8...but..I guess the R8 uses the 4.2L V8, as well. Still...it's stupid to have both. I guess, however, you could always just either remove or not use the flappy paddles.

Actually, it's not all that stupid to have both.

A traditional torque converter automatic has the potential to be MUCH smoother than any DSG or automated manual... But a DSG/automated manual can be made a bit "better" for spirited driving than a TC auto while maintaining the ability to shift itself when wanted.

 

[niky]

CVTs are, bar none, the smoothest transmissions out there. Period. Planetary gearsets as in the Prius, aided by electric motors, are just as smooth, but you can't use a planetary gearbox without hybrid assist. CVTs work just as well with a single engine.

 

[MatskiMonk]

CVTs are, bar none, the smoothest transmissions out there. Period. Planetary gearsets as in the Prius, aided by electric motors, are just as smooth, but you can't use a planetary gearbox without hybrid assist. CVTs work just as well with a single engine.

Yes but still, you don't have the tactile experience of grappling with a big, meaty, hard stick.. which is as far as I can tell, what the manual elitists enjoy?

 

[homeforsummer]

Yes but still, you don't have the tactile experience of grappling with a big, meaty, hard stick.. which is as far as I can tell, what the manual elitists enjoy?

I'm beginning to believe, re: the Prius, that the absolute lack of driving sensation is actually one of the things that attracts people to it. If you're not interested in cars, you don't need a manual gearbox/steering feel/a loud engine/etc, you just want something comfy/reliable/economical. I'd even go as far as to say that those who do appreciate their driving more could get something from the experience. I'd certainly make your weekend car feel more fun if you used a Prius during the week, and the gas you save could go towards that car instead.

Oh, and what I've just described is one of the main reasons I like electric cars...

 

[TheCracker]

London too. Or New York. There's a very good reason taxis in cities like NYC or London are all automatic and not manual...

Or any major city for that matter.

95% of my time in a car involves cross-city driving, which is at least 6 hours a week for a total of 42 miles. I can't say that an auto or automated gearbox would make my journey any easier or more enjoyable.

I've spent the last 23 years of my life predominantly driving cars with manual gearboxes. I'm so used to that process of driving that it's completely second nature. The task of clutch in - change gear - clutch out is now as familiar and automated as breathing. The odd time i do get to drive an auto makes me feel like there's something missing, like i'm forgetting to do something but can't quite put my finger on it.

It's the difference between eating just soup (slush-box) or having all your foods liquidized so you can drink it through a straw (automated manual) - and chewing your food (manual). I don't find chewing food to be in the slightest bit annoying or taxing.

 

[Jay]

Personally all of my cars have been manual with a exception to a brief V8 swap which I mounted with a auto. When I drive a auto it isn't the shifting process I miss the most, it is the loss of the direct coupling feeling I get with the drivetrain/tyres to the road, torque converters are too much of a buffer for me. I wouldn't be against getting a DCT equiped car in the future though.

I've spent the last 23 years of my life predominantly driving cars with manual gearboxes. I'm so used to that process of driving that it's completely second nature. The task of clutch in - change gear - clutch out is now as familiar and automated as breathing. The odd time i do get to drive an auto makes me feel like there's something missing, like i'm forgetting to do something but can't quite put my finger on it.

I know the feeling, when I have to drive a auto I can't help but go for the phantom clutch when I approach a red traffic light.

 

[JJ72]

95% of my time in a car involves cross-city driving, which is at least 6 hours a week for a total of 42 miles. I can't say that an auto or automated gearbox would make my journey any easier or more enjoyable.

It is different for taxi drivers who pull 8 hour to 12 hour shifts everyday and I am inclined to think it would lead to some health issues as well.

 

[Jay]

It is different for taxi drivers who pull 8 hour to 12 hour shifts everyday and I am inclined to think it would lead to some health issues as well.

I used to be a courier in a manual van, always buzzing within the city and traffic all day long, shifting and holding the clutch in just came natural and I never noticed or thought about it. Not that I expect everyone to be the same or even want to be.

As for health issues... hmm might be some benefits to keep the left leg moving

 

[TheCracker]

It is different for taxi drivers who pull 8 hour to 12 hour shifts everyday and I am inclined to think it would lead to some health issues as well.

Black cab drivers maybe, but the fleets of mini-cab drivers in the UK (and probably Europe) happily run manuals.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'd say the biggest problem with switching between a manual and an auto regularly (as I do), is not one of 'remembering' how or when to change gear, it is entirely second nature.. given that I'm familar with the cars involved I can be halfway down the street before I've even registered I've changed gear a couple of times. For me the hardest part is remembering which foot to brake with! I consistantly left foot brake in auto's, but never in manuals... it has lead to a few 'moments'! I guess left foot braking doesn't come as naturally as changing gear to me.

 

[homeforsummer]

Black cab drivers maybe, but the fleets of mini-cab drivers in the UK (and probably Europe) happily run manuals.

True. There's a key difference though.

The cities I mentioned earlier predominantly have traffic heavy enough that it's all stop-start. I lived in Newcastle for several years, and I've lived around Leeds for even longer. Traffic never really gets bad enough for you to think "I wish I had an auto" because by and large you're moving, and if you're moving, you'll generally be able to get out of first or second gear, even if you have to stop for the occasional traffic light.

In LA, or in London, or New York, or Tokyo, or several areas of Dubai (well, the UAE in general) that I've driven around before, you spend much of your time at walking pace at the most. I'd defy anyone to do that every day and say that an auto wouldn't make things easier, even if changing gear manually is second nature.

The changing gear isn't really the difficult bit, as you've alluded to. That bit is second nature.

It's the constant on-and-off-the-clutch-dance you do in very heavy traffic that can make manuals a drag. How much of a drag depends on how heavy the traffic really is, and how many hours you spend stuck in it. I've driven manual cars around London several times, but only for a few hours at the most. It's fun in small doses (my Panda is brilliant around London when the traffic clears) but I'd quickly get bored of sitting in queues every day, constantly pumping the clutch.

Anyway, as I've often said on GTP when such matters come up - I'll always have a manual car in the garage for a bit of fun, but I'd have absolutely no issue with using an auto day-to-day.

 

[TheCracker]

True. There's a key difference though.

The cities I mentioned earlier predominantly have traffic heavy enough that it's all stop-start. I lived in Newcastle for several years, and I've lived around Leeds for even longer. Traffic never really gets bad enough for you to think "I wish I had an auto" because by and large you're moving, and if you're moving, you'll generally be able to get out of first or second gear, even if you have to stop for the occasional traffic light.

In LA, or in London, or New York, or Tokyo, or several areas of Dubai (well, the UAE in general) that I've driven around before, you spend much of your time at walking pace at the most. I'd defy anyone to do that every day and say that an auto wouldn't make things easier, even if changing gear manually is second nature.

Stop-start is what most of my daily commute is (which is why the 4.2 miles takes 35 minutes!) At least half the journey is at crawling pace whilst the que of 20 cars ahead is trying to get onto one of the 4 major round-a-bouts i negotiate between home and work.

 

[Boffin]

I don't know if its been covered before and I am sorry for not reading every post, but autos have a place in this world, or at least a place in mine. I learnt on a manwell so its not like I am an idiot who can't drive, but yes, I rock an auto. A 250hp paddleshift auto. If I lived in the country, I would consider a manual over a slushbox, but the simple matter is I live in a built up, hilly part of Sydney and constant handbrake hillstarts in a traffic jam would tire me in a matter of minutes, no matter what car I had. Sometimes its down to living conditions.

When I was the OP's age, I was all about petrolheadism as well. I told myself my first car would be a Porsche 944 and life would be sweet. Fast forward to me getting my licence and had a good idea of how the roads were and my relationship with traffic and what I needed a car for and while I could afford a 944, an MX5, a 3 Series or a Peugeot 205 gti, I simply couldnt fathom getting one.

Its not about OOHHHHH SAVE MANUALS BECUZ PPL R DUM N CANT DRYVE, its about time and place. If you are devoted to finding a biting point a squillion times in a city just to get around with mundane errands, it doesnt make you more of a petrolhead because you "put up with it so on the off chance you are on a nice road, everything comes together", it just makes you a little crazy.
I will have a manual one day. A day where I have a slushbox for normal daily grind.

 

[homeforsummer]

Stop-start is what most of my daily commute is (which is why the 4.2 miles takes 35 minutes!) At least half the journey is at crawling pace whilst the que of 20 cars ahead is trying to get onto one of the 4 major round-a-bouts i negotiate between home and work.

Last time I was in London it took me 1h 15mins to get from Wimbledon to central London. I know you're not me, but for me that'd wear thin doing it every day!

 

[JJ72]

I have the privilege of living in a city where public transport is top notch, so my car is used almost solely for spirited driving, manual can make traffic jam fun sometime but definitely not on a daily basis.

 

[homeforsummer]

I have the privilege of living in a city where public transport is top notch, so my car is used almost solely for spirited driving, manual can make traffic jam fun sometime but definitely not on a daily basis.

I wouldn't say manuals make traffic jams fun, so much as city driving when the roads are a little emptier. You take what you can get I guess, and I quite enjoy city driving when it's not jammed solid! It's all about precision in the city

 

[Rotary Junkie]

It's the constant on-and-off-the-clutch-dance you do in very heavy traffic that can make manuals a drag. How much of a drag depends on how heavy the traffic really is, and how many hours you spend stuck in it. I've driven manual cars around London several times, but only for a few hours at the most. It's fun in small doses (my Panda is brilliant around London when the traffic clears) but I'd quickly get bored of sitting in queues every day, constantly pumping the clutch.

What you've failed to note here is that in an automatic you're stuck doing the exact same thing unless you drive it like I do (neutral any time at a dead stop), just with the brake pedal.

Not to mention, the pressure required to keep most newer stuff's clutches released is less than required to hold an auto in place with the brake pedal, or at least equivalent. Add in a feeling of stronger control over how quickly the car is going/accelerating at those low speeds and, well... For the most part I'd take the manual.

Meanwhile, in cases where all traffic comes to an abrupt halt, quickly speeds up to 35ish, then does it all over again... Give me an auto. It's a lot more work in that case to take off, row through a few gears, then stop than it is to just let your foot off the brake, accelerate, stop. Normal suburban driving it doesn't bother me, it's more when everyone tries to run anyone not in their GOTTA GO FASTER TO STOP competition over while getting exactly nowhere.

 

[homeforsummer]

What you've failed to note here is that in an automatic you're stuck doing the exact same thing unless you drive it like I do (neutral any time at a dead stop), just with the brake pedal.

Not to mention, the pressure required to keep most newer stuff's clutches released is less than required to hold an auto in place with the brake pedal, or at least equivalent. Add in a feeling of stronger control over how quickly the car is going/accelerating at those low speeds and, well... For the most part I'd take the manual.

I'm not quite sure I get you?

Process for start-stop traffic in a manual, initially moving: Come off gas, press brake, depress clutch as you come to a halt. Either stay in gear with clutch depressed, or knock into neutral if stopped for longer. Then, either slot back into gear, balance clutch/gas and pull away, or balance clutch/gas and pull away. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Process for start-stop traffic in an auto, initially moving: Come off gas, press brake pedal. Stop. Release pressure on brake pedal and creep, or release pressure on brake pedal and press gas. Wash, rinse, repeat.

That's a lot less stuff involved in start-stop traffic, and thats without taking into account faster traffic where you may be going up and down the gears constantly, or very, very slow traffic where in a manual you're constantly clutch in, clutch out, clutch in, clutch out. In very slow traffic in an auto, the brake is literally the only pedal you need to press as creep does the rest.

I'm also not an advocate of keeping the car in gear with the clutch depressed if you're going to be sitting there a while. Increases wear on the clutch release bearings. In heavy traffic that isn't moving every few seconds or creeping along, it's better to slot it into neutral. Saves strain on that leg, too.

Meanwhile, in cases where all traffic comes to an abrupt halt, quickly speeds up to 35ish, then does it all over again... Give me an auto. It's a lot more work in that case to take off, row through a few gears, then stop than it is to just let your foot off the brake, accelerate, stop. Normal suburban driving it doesn't bother me, it's more when everyone tries to run anyone not in their GOTTA GO FASTER TO STOP competition over while getting exactly nowhere.

Ah, that covers part of what I mentioned above 👍

 

[Danoff]

What you've failed to note here is that in an automatic you're stuck doing the exact same thing unless you drive it like I do (neutral any time at a dead stop), just with the brake pedal.

There's a balance. Too much in and out of neutral results in a lot more clutch movement (and it seems like it has to be extra synchro work). Too little results in a lot more holding down the clutch and extra wear as well.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I'm not quite sure I get you?

Process for start-stop traffic in a manual, initially moving: Come off gas, press brake, depress clutch as you come to a halt. Either stay in gear with clutch depressed, or knock into neutral if stopped for longer. Then, either slot back into gear, balance clutch/gas and pull away, or balance clutch/gas and pull away. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Come off gas, hit brake + clutch, release brake when stopped. Average traffic jam usually moves enough to not warrant going for neutral in a stick.

And most of what I've driven in nasty traffic doesn't exactly require throttle input when everyone is creeping on the brakes anyway.

Process for start-stop traffic in an auto, initially moving: Come off gas, press brake pedal. Stop. Release pressure on brake pedal and creep, or release pressure on brake pedal and press gas. Wash, rinse, repeat.

So, aside from moving your left leg or not, what's the difference between holding the car back with the brakes or sitting around with the clutch depressed?

That's a lot less stuff involved in start-stop traffic, and thats without taking into account faster traffic where you may be going up and down the gears constantly, or very, very slow traffic where in a manual you're constantly clutch in, clutch out, clutch in, clutch out. In very slow traffic in an auto, the brake is literally the only pedal you need to press as creep does the rest.

In very slow traffic in a manual, the clutch is literally the only pedal you need to mess with as well... Unless you're driving something so completely torqueless that it cannot move on level ground without throttle... But I've yet to meet that in anything Stateside.

I'm also not an advocate of keeping the car in gear with the clutch depressed if you're going to be sitting there a while. Increases wear on the clutch release bearings. In heavy traffic that isn't moving every few seconds or creeping along, it's better to slot it into neutral. Saves strain on that leg, too.

True, same for it being better for transmission fluid but worse for the trans itself in an automatic to go to neutral.

Then again, I suspect a manual that sees a reason for that type of use will wear the friction material before anything else anyway.

There's a balance. Too much in and out of neutral results in a lot more clutch movement (and it seems like it has to be extra synchro work). Too little results in a lot more holding down the clutch and extra wear as well.

I'd been referring to my habits with an auto with that, sorry for it being a little unclear. As mentioned above, it's technically bad for it as well, though good for fuel economy.

Now let me say something... Once a car is stopped fully and the clutch is disengaged, there is effectively zero synchro wear from selecting any given gear as there's no speed difference to equalize, just perhaps slight alignment tweaking.

 

[Zenith]

And given your location Zenith, I'd say you know about stop and go traffic - guessing you sometimes have to drive the 101. I've driven that stretch between Santa Clara and Palo Alto several times, and while I can't remember the exact spot (a bit north of NASA) it just always is bad even a bit after peak hours. Driving that stretch with an automatic was never an issue to me because then I could enjoy my coffee and relax a bit more, rather than wonder how my left knee was going to hold up

I just tell people they should spend a day driving around LA during peak hours and they'll understand instantly why an automatic or automated DSG would be nice.

That last statement is on the nose. If I want to drive anywhere between the hours of 5 and 7, I have to accept that I'll spend at least 30 minutes in stop and go traffic. Automatics just make the trip a bit less of a (literal) pain, especially with my car's heavy clutch.

Heh, it's interesting to think that someone over the internet has driven the exact roads and seen the exact scenery that I have (NASA)

So, aside from moving your left leg or not, what's the difference between holding the car back with the brakes or sitting around with the clutch depressed?

In very slow traffic in a manual, the clutch is literally the only pedal you need to mess with as well... Unless you're driving something so completely torqueless that it cannot move on level ground without throttle... But I've yet to meet that in anything Stateside.

A brake pedal is lighter than a clutch and doesn't require any sort of finesse. Do we really need to discuss whether or not an automatic is easier to drive in hard traffic than a manual?

Also, autos take a bit of mental work out of the equation since I don't need to think "Am I in first? How long am I going to be sitting here? Should I put it in neutral?" Automatics are simple. Brake to stop. Let off to scoot up.