Save the Manuals!

[Perfect Balance]

I don't think you can call yourself a driving enthusiast if you think that driving an automatic is equivalent to not driving at all.

I had a bit of a rant posted here but decided it was useless to try.

I don't know if you consider a typical autobox as good as a manual or properly sorted dual clutch setup for driving hard, but i'll just just say, if you do, then I'm absolutely sure you've never driven a vehicle at or near it's limits. Otherwise it's shortcomings would become perfectly clear at the first corner you got to.

 

[MedigoFlame]

My best friend drives a manual 330i and he is the most distracted driver I've ever seen in my entire life, so no, manuals do not magically do away with distractions. You'd probably end up with more accidents since people would be fumbling with their phone or burger while trying to operate the transmission and steer the car. Is it right? No, but that's how people drive today.

Also since when is not wiggling a level make you lazy? That's a very misguided statement.

Now that you say so. Some people I know have come to mind about distracted driving. Sorry about my statement. -_-

 

[gogatrs]

Porsche exists for a reason.
I legally can't get my license until I'm 16.5, so you can blame Connecticut for that point.
I got a G27 for the sole reason of learning how to heel and toe, which I'm relatively good at (in rFactor as well as GT5).
I can pull away and start quite well in my Dad's GLI, shift up to second in our driveway. But that's it. -__-
That's what the simulators are for though, right?

 

[nitrorocks]

Porsche exists for a reason.
I legally can't get my license until I'm 16.5, so you can blame Connecticut for that point.
I got a G27 for the sole reason of learning how to heel and toe, which I'm relatively good at (in rFactor as well as GT5).
I can pull away and start quite well in my Dad's GLI, shift up to second in our driveway. But that's it. -__-
That's what the simulators are for though, right?

How do you heel and toe your G27? I can't die to the
Punting of
Ine

 

[gogatrs]

How do you heel and toe your G27? I can't die to the
Punting of
Ine

Put toe on brakes, lift heel, stab gas.

 

[nitrorocks]

Put toe on brakes, lift heel, stab gas.

Sorry for the misspelt words. I'm on the IPhone. I meant to ask how because mine is angled steeply on my Playseat

 

[Azuremen]

I had a bit of a rant posted here but decided it was useless to try.

I don't know if you consider a typical autobox as good as a manual or properly sorted dual clutch setup for driving hard, but i'll just just say, if you do, then I'm absolutely sure you've never driven a vehicle at or near it's limits. Otherwise it's shortcomings would become perfectly clear at the first corner you got to.

Conversely, you can still easily have fun with a decent automatic in a car I feel.

I drove my brother's turbo A6 around a bit tonight, it is automatic. Had no problems at all and rather liked being able to relax a bit more about driving around town. It is a decent enough automatic with a broad enough torque curve that I was never sitting there waiting for the transmission to figure out things.

 

[homeforsummer]

Conversely, you can still easily have fun with a decent automatic in a car I feel.

I drove my brother's turbo A6 around a bit tonight, it is automatic. Had no problems at all and rather liked being able to relax a bit more about driving around town. It is a decent enough automatic with a broad enough torque curve that I was never sitting there waiting for the transmission to figure out things.

That's the other thing of course. With decent torque autos are quite nice, they just get on with the job. In an underpowered car the car often struggles to get out of its own way as the auto decides what it actually wants to do.

It's why I don't mind the semi-manual in Smarts. Yeah, it's not as smooth as a torque converter, but then drive is at least fairly direct. When you're talking cars like the Smart that make between 45 and about 80 horsepower depending on the model, I couldn't see a torque converter being any better. CVT might be, perhaps. But then the best Smart I've driven didn't have an engine at all, just an electric motor...

 

[CromaTurboIE]

I want to save the manual gears! i hate automatic gears!

 

[MatskiMonk]

I had a bit of a rant posted here but decided it was useless to try.

I don't know if you consider a typical autobox as good as a manual or properly sorted dual clutch setup for driving hard, but i'll just just say, if you do, then I'm absolutely sure you've never driven a vehicle at or near it's limits. Otherwise it's shortcomings would become perfectly clear at the first corner you got to.

Auto or manual, the limiting factor on road cars (in my experience) is normally grip. I'm not saying that it's not possible to make faster progress in a manual, but in my experience there's not much in it.. and let's be honest 99.9% of the mileage completed by people on this forum is on public roads, driving at the limit of your cars ability is both dangerous and illegal so it doesn't make that much sense to call people out on their at-the-limit capability.

 

[Danoff]

I had a bit of a rant posted here but decided it was useless to try.

I don't know if you consider a typical autobox as good as a manual or properly sorted dual clutch setup for driving hard, but i'll just just say, if you do, then I'm absolutely sure you've never driven a vehicle at or near it's limits. Otherwise it's shortcomings would become perfectly clear at the first corner you got to.

What do you mean by "as good"? As fast? A DSG is the fastest available option for driving hard.

A typical automatic is not going to be as fast as a manual for driving hard - but I prefer even a manuamatic to a manual for driving hard. It may not be as fast, but I find it to be a purer driving experience. Yes, I know how to heel toe, and I find it to be an obnoxious human interface.

 

[homeforsummer]

Auto or manual, the limiting factor on road cars (in my experience) is normally grip. I'm not saying that it's not possible to make faster progress in a manual, but in my experience there's not much in it.. and let's be honest 99.9% of the mileage completed by people on this forum is on public roads, driving at the limit of your cars ability is both dangerous and illegal so it doesn't make that much sense to call people out on their at-the-limit capability.

To be fair, that depends on where those limits are. Most modern cars are massively over-tyred so limits tend to be quite high, but I've never personally owned a car where understeer, or occasionally oversteer (both on/over-the-limit characteristics) weren't easily available at quite low and certainly legal speeds. Likewise, cars with only modest performance can be accelerated to their own limits relatively easily (my old Fiesta, at 15-16 seconds to 60, could quite easily be driven "flat out"/"on the limit" without breaking speed limits). I'd not consider either of the above dangerous, nor illegal.

 

[MatskiMonk]

To be fair, that depends on where those limits are. Most modern cars are massively over-tyred so limits tend to be quite high, but I've never personally owned a car where understeer, or occasionally oversteer (both on/over-the-limit characteristics) weren't easily available at quite low and certainly legal speeds. Likewise, cars with only modest performance can be accelerated to their own limits relatively easily (my old Fiesta, at 15-16 seconds to 60, could quite easily be driven "flat out"/"on the limit" without breaking speed limits). I'd not consider either of the above dangerous, nor illegal.

No, I agree, to be fair, I had my own car more in mind when I said that, which will also fail to grip at legal speeds, but 'could' be pushed to very illegal speeds before failing to grip. My point was more that an automatic transmission is not going to stop you from reaching your cars limits (driving it on the edge).. as other factors will probably slow you down first.

Like I say, I get the theory, and I've mostly driven manuals, despite currently owning an auto, and my favourite previous car being an auto, I'm not known for driving in a lazy fashion, but I think using on the limit performance as a measure of auto vs. manual isn't that relevant for most people.

Also, for the record, my cars overly intrusive ABS annoys me way more than my auto box does... to the point I think it must be broken, because there is no way I'd be locking my wheels that often?!

 

[homeforsummer]

No, I agree, to be fair, I had my own car more in mind when I said that, which will also fail to grip at legal speeds, but 'could' be pushed to very illegal speeds before failing to grip. My point was more that an automatic transmission is not going to stop you from reaching your cars limits (driving it on the edge).. as other factors will probably slow you down first.

I agree.

Also, for the record, my cars overly intrusive ABS annoys me way more than my auto box does... to the point I think it must be broken, because there is no way I'd be locking my wheels that often?!

Sounds a little like it. The only two times I've ever activated ABS in a car have been on snow, and on a racetrack. Some systems do kick in a little early sometimes though, which is a bit off-putting and totally defeats the purpose of having ABS. Should be solely to allow you to steer when the wheels lock, rather than preventing the wheels getting anywhere near locking.

 

[CSLACR]

I don't think you can call yourself a driving enthusiast if you think that driving an automatic is equivalent to not driving at all.

I do.
Obviously an AT with manual input (DSG) would be much different, but it's in no different category then ABS, TCS, or even ASM.
It's a driving aid, of which I enjoy none.

The only way to see it differently is misconception.
Cars started out manual, without brakes that control lock for you, etc, etc. Since auto's have been around for so long, people are getting to the point where they find it reasonable to argue it's not a staple part of the driving experience, and just as some view autos this way now, they will one day argue the same for ABS (some already do to a point), and then TCS, and eventually all kinds of driving aids, where we simply tell it which way to go and how fast to do it, and cars literally do all the leg work.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I do.

You think that driving an automatic is equivalent to not driving at all?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

*notices CSLACR uses a DFGT*

You're using driving aids every single time you play GT5, just putting that out there.

I see no point being a complete elitist about manual transmissions. Automatics have their place, as do manuals, as do DSGs. *shrug*

Edit: Not to mention... My auto has a manual mode. If I drive it only in manual mode, does that make it a stick? Nope, that makes it an automatic with manual gear selection.

 

[SkateNj]

The point is that you're 14 and have nowhere near enough experience to discuss this matter.

Thats just ignorance. I can discuss it because i do have some experience with both transmissions and i love manuals because of the fun they can provide. I know they can be a hassle but they are still very great.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Pfft, you ALL wussies! If you isn't rollin' like a Flintstone, you LAZY!

 

[Punknoodle]

I don't find them a hassle, ever.

Obviously an AT with manual input (DSG)

DSG is not an AT, it is a dual clutch system that can be driven either automatically or manually. It gives direct drive. An AT uses a Torque Converter. Very different lets get that clear...

I wouldnt put the DSG or AT in the same catergory as driving aids. It is purely a technological invention that allows faster and more consistent gear changes.

Driving aids are there basically to correct the inputs of the driver. An AT is there to Chang the gear ratio automatically. Not the same thing.

 

[Danoff]

Driving aids are there basically to correct the inputs of the driver. An AT is there to Chang the gear ratio automatically. Not the same thing.

Hear hear.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Auto or manual, the limiting factor on road cars (in my experience) is normally grip. I'm not saying that it's not possible to make faster progress in a manual, but in my experience there's not much in it.. and let's be honest 99.9% of the mileage completed by people on this forum is on public roads, driving at the limit of your cars ability is both dangerous and illegal so it doesn't make that much sense to call people out on their at-the-limit capability.

The limiting factor is indeed grip. In a "hard driving" situation, autoboxes have a problem with being in the right gear when you need to accelerate from a corner, therefore, you need to downshift them manually when braking for a corner. This frequently is a very harsh ordeal which hinders your ability to use the tire's available grip for slowing down, thus limiting how hard you can brake without locking up the tires.

What do you mean by "as good"? As fast? A DSG is the fastest available option for driving hard.

A typical automatic is not going to be as fast as a manual for driving hard - but I prefer even a manuamatic to a manual for driving hard. It may not be as fast, but I find it to be a purer driving experience. Yes, I know how to heel toe, and I find it to be an obnoxious human interface.

See the above reply for "as good". I know a dsg is quicker, hence why I included them in my argument over autoboxes. I don't particularly enjoy DSGs but I recognize their capabilities, especially a well programmed one that can respond quickly to downshift inputs while revmatching.

But nobody compares the strengths of something by comparing it's performance at 30% of it's capabilities. A Honda Civic and a Bugatti Veyron are equally "as good" at reaching 70mph in under 15 seconds. Hence why I like to compare their capabilities when using a vehicle to the best of it's capabilities. A drive to work is mundane enough that I don't feel that either transmission particularly excels or is a hindrance to performing a simple task like that, but when I go for a drive on the back roads on my way home, I'm left with frustration in an autobox, because the downshifts take long and are jerky, the car drops into a sort of "nuetral" off throttle and has a lag when you get back on it, the shifts don't feel direct, ect ect.

 

[Gil]

For the record: I drive 66 miles round trip to and from work.
I'd say every bit of 60 miles of the journey is spent on the freeway in top gear.
I truly love to drive a manual, but in heavy traffic...it's pretty much a pain in the ass.

I rarely drive like a hooligan (on public roads) anymore. And for the most part modern DSG transmissions are every bit as good, fast, and fuel efficient as any manual.

As i said I love to drive a manual, but as I get older, it becomes more like work than fun.

The occasional "double-apex roundabout" does make it worth the effort.

And Joey D is correct. The auto makers will make what is selling.

I got to drive an '09 Mazda6 with a manual a while back. I even went online to attempt to option one out for myself.
Fact: If you order a mainstream car with a manual transmission...it will be the base model, with none of the "good stuff" available on the option list...UNLESS...you upgrade to the automatic. Most folks want the 6CD changer, the leather, the sunroof, the power seats more than they want to shift for themselves.

In fact, I also priced out an Infiniti G37. The auto is standard, the manual is a $1000 upcharge.
The VW CC, my current dream car, (It fits all my wife's criteria--FWD, 4-doors, Fuel efficient) can be had with either a manual or a DSG. It fits all MY criteria. It's got personality, mechanically sound design, reasonably quick and damn good-looking.

I admit that I truly am torn between the manual and the auto.

I'm not a spring chicken anymore, and I think the auto would be easier on my knees, and my patience (at least in traffic). The manual would be awesome to fire up after a hard day of work, and row thru the gears....
And the used ones are cheaper to buy with manual transmissions....

And the Germans seem to understand the point of leaving all the cool stuff on the option list of cars equipped with manual transmissions.

 

[the_stig_1]

Edited My Sig!

 

[Prince.M5]

I drove a manual car today... Uuuuuuh what a joy!

It was an old Perodua Kancil, well the clutch is heavy plus there was no power steering. A hell to drive, but awesomeness everywhere!

I'm definitely driving a manual car again, but still Automatic is my choice when driving around the streets in Kuala Lumpur.

 

[Thatman]

As for the topic at hand, the only way to save the manuals is to buy new cars that are equipped with one. And since it seems like a common thought is that new cars suck, I don't think the manuals will be saved anytime soon.

There has to be a demand for features for automakers to include them so it can be profitable. It's not exactly cheap to make a manual and an automatic version of a car, there are many things that need to be redesigned and re-engineered. Automakers are just going to go with whatever has the greatest demand, that's why you see so many hot hatches and sport compacts offered with manuals and not family sedans.

Honestly in a world where double clutches are getting better and even standard auto transmissions are getting 8-9 speeds manuals make very little sense. A double clutch will shift faster and offer better fuel economy, the same goes for the new 8+ speed auto trans as well, although the shifting may not be as quick (I haven't driven one).

Petitioning online isn't going to do anything, you need to go purchase a new product. If you aren't going to buy one, then don't complain when the manuals are dead, you had your chance. But it probably won't matter anyway. Anyone who desires a manual will have probably bought a second hand car anyways.

As much as I usually disagree with you. I couldn't have put it better.

I love my manual but unfortunately, I plan to keep buying used, I don't like new cars because of the way they feel.(and look, most of them) Though, I don't think the manual will ever go away, as others have put it, it would likely be the more expensive option on a car and rarely standard.

 

[Gil]

In point of fact. In a vast majority of cars, the manual is the standard transmission.
Hence is it called a "standard transmission".
However, in the "real" world...try to find one on the new car lot.
As I said earlier, in the US about 7% of new cars are so equipped.
So, saving them manuals will only be possible if folks start buying them.
But nowadays people don't "cut their teeth" on a stick shift anymore.
I required all six of my guys to learn. 4 became proficient. The other two, prefer not to.
One is an athlete and he won't entertain doing much of anything that he can't be good at instantly.
The other didn't really want to learn to drive in the first place.

 

[Motorcitydriver]

Back in a manual after 27 years, fun but not for every day in Detroit traffic.

 

[Zenith]

Thats just ignorance. I can discuss it because i do have some experience with both transmissions and i love manuals because of the fun they can provide. I know they can be a hassle but they are still very great.

You're being ignorant/naive to think that you're experienced enough to know the "fun" manual transmissions may provide.

Have you ever driven in stop-and-go traffic with and without a stick? No.
Have you ever driven in a city with and without stick? No.
Do you know what it's like to live day to day with and without stick? No.
Have you ever driven on a track with a stick and a DSG? No.

You do not know what kind of fun they provide.

You do not know what kind of hassle we're talking about.

This is nothing personal, but you simply don't know what you're talking about. You're 14. You'll be able to join the discussion with a reasonable amount of knowledge in about a decade or two.

This is the internet. No matter who you are or what you have done, there's always at least a dozen more people who have much more knowledge than you do.

 

[Azuremen]

This is the internet. No matter who you are or what you have done, there's always at least a dozen more people who have much more knowledge than you do.

Exactly. It is kind of amazing how many people don't seem to get this.

And given your location Zenith, I'd say you know about stop and go traffic - guessing you sometimes have to drive the 101. I've driven that stretch between Santa Clara and Palo Alto several times, and while I can't remember the exact spot (a bit north of NASA) it just always is bad even a bit after peak hours. Driving that stretch with an automatic was never an issue to me because then I could enjoy my coffee and relax a bit more, rather than wonder how my left knee was going to hold up

I just tell people they should spend a day driving around LA during peak hours and they'll understand instantly why an automatic or automated DSG would be nice.