Save the Manuals!

[Azuremen]

I will definitely join the cause. Im onlyn14 and can drive a manual no problem. Its 750000x more fun than an auto.

Sounds like you have a lot of experience on the matter, and thus are an expert on the fun factor.



MasksiMonk, have to say I agree with what you've said. Certainly one of the more rational posts in here as well.

 

[Danoff]

Manuals need to be saved! I learnt to drive in a manual a year ago. And I will only drive manuals (Unless it's paddle on a supercar, even though I want manual). And I certainly will NOT buy an Auto! ever! It's useless.

I will definitely join the cause. Im only 14 and can drive a manual no problem. Its 750000x more fun than an auto.

So, if I read correctly, we have someone who learned to drive a year ago, and someone who isn't even legally allowed to drive already attached to the antiquated technology.

That's hardly surprising given the love that hollywood gives the stick shift. The fast and furious generation have a built-in affinity for the manual just like the movie-going generations before them.

I've maintained for a while that driving purists should only accept a DSG in their car (possibly even a CVT). If you love driving, you shouldn't be dancing on 3 pedals and flipping a stick around - you should be driving. If you love operating a transmission, set one up in your living room, you don't need to be in a car moving around to operate a transmission.

IIRC, it's the NSX.

I'm impressed. Good memory.

 

[Azuremen]

Danoff, we've had words on this before though - there are some fun things you can do with a clutch, but mostly hooning about things like drifting. It is also nice for sorting out understeer at times on snow.

And you could easily argue that flipping a stick and dancing is part of driving. It certainly doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of my M3 when I am blasting down curvy roads. And provides a bit more enjoyment than a DSG when I want to get sideways.

At the track, of course

 

[Eric.]

Danoff, that sounds a lot like "steering" a car to me. Which is actually operating a steering rack. How fun is operating a steering rack? Or squeezing brake pads onto a rotating disc, or moving a throttle cable/sending an electronic signal to the ECU to open the throttle body?

 

[SpartanG]

Danoff is the master of troll sarcasm...

I'm trying to convince my dad to let me buy an old beater so i can learn stick. Been thinking about EG civics, 3rd or 4th gen accords, etc. They tend to be rust buckets but that's fine with me. I'll probably flip it after a few months when i go off to college and look into something better. Mastering the clutch is something I've always wanted to do.

 

[Eric.]

Beater cars can be fun, too. If you can get it cheap enough that it lasts a year or two at least and not care if it kicks the bucket after that. Plenty of fun to be had out on backroads, and if its a Honda or Toyota you can probably beat the crap out of it and it'll just take it.

...but that's another thread.

 

[Biggamehit]

haha nice thread.. just buy older cars they are better than pretty much everything that comes out now thats affordable anyway.

 

[McLaren]

haha nice thread.. just buy older cars they are better than pretty much everything that comes out now thats affordable anyway.

Of course they are.

Have you actually bought a car made in the last 2 years?

 

[SpartanG]

Beater cars can be fun, too.

That's the plan. Recently discovered some nice twisties that I want to drive and can't wait to get out there in a car that might actually be fun. I also plan to learn how to turn wrenches, change oil, really maintain my car. That also steers me towards hondas, because they're easy and cheap to work on.

 

[Gil]

While I'm late to the party...be aware that in the US, only 7% of new cars are sold with manual transmissions.
All but two of my kids know how to drive a manual, and only 2 of the 6 have cars with manuals at present.
I love to drive a car with a manual, but in point of face, the DSG, and several other "sport" autos are actually better, and faster than me, and they are programmed to "double-clutch" on the downshift, which is another lost art.

My current dream car is a Volkswagen CC with the 2.0T and six speed manual. And about half of the used ones I see online are so equipped.
So, if just half of y'all who still currently frequent the boards, will send me a dollar, soon, I can buy the black one around the corner. And I promise to drive it, and drive it well.
Though I've only been driving a stick shift for about 30 years. The vehicle I LEARNED on was a 3-speed, and the shifter was on the column.

 

[Kent]

While I'm late to the party...be aware that in the US, only 7% of new cars are sold with manual transmissions.
All but two of my kids know how to drive a manual, and only 2 of the 6 have cars with manuals at present.
I love to drive a car with a manual, but in point of face, the DSG, and several other "sport" autos are actually better, and faster than me, and they are programmed to "double-clutch" on the downshift, which is another lost art.

My current dream car is a Volkswagen CC with the 2.0T and six speed manual. And about half of the used ones I see online are so equipped.
So, if just half of y'all who still currently frequent the boards, will send me a dollar, soon, I can buy the black one around the corner. And I promise to drive it, and drive it well.
Though I've only been driving a stick shift for about 30 years. The vehicle I LEARNED on was a 3-speed, and the shifter was on the column.

And the clutch was about 18 inches from the accelerator?

I drive manual as well but Im happy to see more dsg action in the market.

 

[Andrew C]

This is not directed at anyone in particular, just a general response to some of the things posted...

It's not about thinking manuals are superior performers to DSG's and more comfortable than autos, but it's about loving the car, and actually being, and more so FEELING that you're in full control of the car. Although I AM BIASED. I have not driven a car equipped with a DSG/Dual Clutch transmission, I have driven a few autos, and stick shifts just add to the experience of driving overall. There's nothing like the sensation of rowing through the gears, or getting the perfect shift.

I also understand the driving in traffic argument. It's not that "OMG, I must haz teh stick shiftz all da time y0!" (although some of us like it all the time, including me), it's that America in general has just lost total interest in driving/ driving stick shifts all together. Most people are just lazy tubs of lard. But, there's the small percentage of enthusiasts like us that are suffering because of it.

 

[Eric.]

That's the plan. Recently discovered some nice twisties that I want to drive and can't wait to get out there in a car that might actually be fun. I also plan to learn how to turn wrenches, change oil, really maintain my car. That also steers me towards hondas, because they're easy and cheap to work on.

My MR2 has been extremely easy to work on also. Keep an eye out for an AE86...maybe you'll find one that nobody knows what it is and doesn't charge the hachiroku tax.

 

[marluxiaXI11]

My MR2 has been extremely easy to work on also. Keep an eye out for an AE86...maybe you'll find one that nobody knows what it is and doesn't charge the hachiroku tax.

And if you find an ae86 make sure to call it a corolla.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Of course they are.

Have you actually bought a car made in the last 2 years?

I don't know about him, but I've driven thousands of them. Literally. And I still agree with his statement. I generally dislike new cars, and the good ones are always either overweight or have bad driving feel.

Back on topic, I think what it boils down to is as long as we still have a DSG, we'll be fine. I dislike autos because they suck for spirited driving, they respond too slow don't revmatch on downshifts, which upsets the balance of the car.

Although I personally don't enjoy driving a DSG as much as a full on manual, they are definitely quick enough, and they do generally downshift quickly as well as revmatch. I'm a fan of drifting, so I like having a clutch pedal, but as far as driving quickly, the DSG does the job well.

 

[SpartanG]

If I could find a nice GTS within budget i would be the happiest kid on earth. There are a few of them within a few hours of me. Are the lower trims that much different? I know the SR5 has the lame duck engine but if it still has the same chassis features... this is going a bit off topic

 

[Azuremen]

The non GT-S is a dog, you have to swap a lot of the parts around to make it comparable - engine, transmission, differential, suspension pieces, brakes, interior trim bits. I'm sure there is more I am not thinking of.

At this point in time, I don't really think the AE86 is a particularly good value for the money. From that era I'd look into a 325i E30 or even an early E36 325i. Better platforms in the long run and not really any more work to fix things on.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I haven't had experience with a truly bad dual clutch setup. They generally work well.

100% of autos I've driven has been crap for anything other than driving around. And they kinda suck for that too. One possible exception isn't enough to say autos work well. They still suck.

EDIT: Also how new are we talking? I drove a Mazda 3 from the gen before the current, and it was a very nice car to drive, felt very solid, but the auto wasn't anything special.

Also, it's not that they don't do what you tell them to, it's that their the response sucks and they don't revmatch. Driving at the limit is nearly impossible because the downshifts upset the car during braking at the limit.

By new I was referring to the 2012 w/ SkyActiv. The base i Sport and the 2.5L versions have the old trans which you've driven (and depending on what year of 3 you drove it was probably the same as in my car, if older then it was the same as my last one).

The SkyActiv's slushbox still doesn't rev match downshifts but they all happen right when you tell them to (unlike the old 4 and 5 speeds) and it genuinely feels good. They seem to have almost nailed the stick too, aside from the throws being a bit long and a bit stiff.

Not arguing that autos don't, on average, suck. They just don't suck quite as much as they once did.

As for dual clutch setups... I don't have enough experience with them, but just riding in a Focus with their abomination of one I realized I'd much rather have a proper torque converter auto, it may not be the same for the good systems (DSG) but to me a DSG has some of the disadvantages of an auto with some of the disadvantages of a stick... And a result that, for a daily, is worse off than either.

Edit: @McLaren: I've driven more than a few new cars.

None of them have been all that good. Some of them have been definitely worse than the same model produced 10 years and driven for those 10 years. (Looking at you Jetta)

 

[Danoff]

Danoff, that sounds a lot like "steering" a car to me. Which is actually operating a steering rack. How fun is operating a steering rack? Or squeezing brake pads onto a rotating disc, or moving a throttle cable/sending an electronic signal to the ECU to open the throttle body?

What is "driving"? It's directing the acceleration and deceleration of the car. That involves the throttle and brake (forward/backward) and steering (side-to-side). It does not involve selecting the gear ratio - which falls under the category of operating the car. To me, pure driving means not worrying about operating the car. It means being as connected to the act of driving as possible.

If tomorrow cars come out without pedals and without a steering wheel but still give you control over acceleration of the car - I'm fine with it. I'm not nostalgic about any part of the mechanics.

There's nothing like the sensation of rowing through the gears, or getting the perfect shift.

That's not driving.

...it's that America in general has just lost total interest in driving/ driving stick shifts all together. Most people are just lazy tubs of lard. But, there's the small percentage of enthusiasts like us that are suffering because of it.

Driving an automatic is not a loss of interest in driving, it does not make you lazy, and it doesn't cause you to suffer because you have a better option in the market now (DSG).

it may not be the same for the good systems (DSG) but to me a DSG has some of the disadvantages of an auto with some of the disadvantages of a stick... And a result that, for a daily, is worse off than either.

For most DSGs you can put them in automatic mode and then (if you have a good one) you have the best automatic you've ever driven. Then if you want to control the gear, they're the best manual you've ever driven.

 

[McLaren]

I don't know about him, but I've driven thousands of them. Literally. And I still agree with his statement. I generally dislike new cars, and the good ones are always either overweight or have bad driving feel.

Probably because you drive them from an enthusiast's view point. In general, new cars are generally better than older cars a good margin as far as safety, technology, features, driving, etc.

And I'm talking about good cars, not those cheap, bare bones, no options cars w/ cloth seats & plastic everywhere.

 

[motortrend]

At this point in time, I don't really think the AE86 is a particularly good value for the money. From that era I'd look into a 325i E30 or even an early E36 325i. Better platforms in the long run and not really any more work to fix things on.

I don't think E30s are very good for the money, granted I really like them, but I think value wise the E36s are better and since they are newer they should have less chances of breaking (though they do have more things that can break). The problem with the bimmers is that the part will probably be more expensive than for the Toyota for the most part.

 

[Biggamehit]

Of course they are.

Have you actually bought a car made in the last 2 years?

No I have not because I race/drift and none of them are practical and or needed. I tune my cars so to start obdII is useless and often tossed out if you want to utilize the stock ecu to piggy back and there is just less electronics. New cars are just not built the same we all know that and for the privateer doesnt have good aftermarket backing at all. It doesn't take a Car and Driver analyst to figure it out. I have been in this game for 12 years now and have raced/drifted and tuned many platforms.

 

[homeforsummer]

But, there's the small percentage of enthusiasts like us that are suffering because of it.

Out of interest, how are enthusiasts suffering again? Which cars are you referring to that are now worse off for not having manual gearboxes?

I'm guessing you don't mean things like new Ferraris, with which owners weren't really interested in manuals anyway and the press say has one of the best dual clutch boxes about. Or maybe you do mean a car you'll never own but still think should have a manual anyway.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

For most DSGs you can put them in automatic mode and then (if you have a good one) you have the best automatic you've ever driven. Then if you want to control the gear, they're the best manual you've ever driven.

Only dual-clutch box I've dealt with is that in the new Focus... Which is obviously not a good one because just riding in it felt like it was what it is... A stick with a brain that shifted extremely quickly. Thing is, I don't see much of a way around that with any of them; just the way they get away from a stop is enough reason to either want a 3rd pedal or a torque converter.

 

[Joey D]

Only dual-clutch box I've dealt with is that in the new Focus... Which is obviously not a good one because just riding in it felt like it was what it is... A stick with a brain that shifted extremely quickly. Thing is, I don't see much of a way around that with any of them; just the way they get away from a stop is enough reason to either want a 3rd pedal or a torque converter.

Ford released an update that fixed the transmission jerkiness and all around sucking. Granted mine is awful, but that's a whole other can-o-worms and based on what people are talking about the Focus forums, I think my case is pretty atypical.

=====

As for the topic at hand, the only way to save the manuals is to buy new cars that are equipped with one. And since it seems like a common thought is that new cars suck, I don't think the manuals will be saved anytime soon.

There has to be a demand for features for automakers to include them so it can be profitable. It's not exactly cheap to make a manual and an automatic version of a car, there are many things that need to be redesigned and re-engineered. Automakers are just going to go with whatever has the greatest demand, that's why you see so many hot hatches and sport compacts offered with manuals and not family sedans.

Honestly in a world where double clutches are getting better and even standard auto transmissions are getting 8-9 speeds manuals make very little sense. A double clutch will shift faster and offer better fuel economy, the same goes for the new 8+ speed auto trans as well, although the shifting may not be as quick (I haven't driven one).

Petitioning online isn't going to do anything, you need to go purchase a new product. If you aren't going to buy one, then don't complain when the manuals are dead, you had your chance. But it probably won't matter anyway. Anyone who desires a manual will have probably bought a second hand car anyways.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Ford released an update that fixed the transmission jerkiness and all around sucking. Granted mine is awful, but that's a whole other can-o-worms and based on what people are talking about the Focus forums, I think my case is pretty atypical.

My uncle's isn't too bad. It's smooth enough (but not quite as smooth as an oldschool slushbox), it just feels wrong at low speeds even as a passenger.

You know that slight shake/stutter that happens when you let a bit too much clutch out and try to compensate with a little extra throttle? Yeah it did that a few times at parking lot speeds... Something about takeoff in general just doesn't seem right, and it almost seems to hold gears longer than it should through the first few. It's not my cup of tea.

Also, is it me or do you have absolutely terrible luck with transmissions?

 

[Joey D]

You know that slight shake/stutter that happens when you let a bit too much clutch out and try to compensate with a little extra throttle? Yeah it did that a few times at parking lot speeds... Something about takeoff in general just doesn't seem right, and it almost seems to hold gears longer than it should through the first few. It's not my cup of tea.

According to Ford the manufacture made it that way, I think they just got a bad batch of transmissions to be honest. The update seemed to help with the shift points though.

Also, is it me or do you have absolutely terrible luck with transmissions?

God hates me.

 

[GTMail]

Should I add you to the list?
Note to all: If you want to be added, say so. I don't want to accidentally add people who don't want to take part, so just say 'count me in' or 'I'll join'.

Count me in then.

 

[Andrew C]

Out of interest, how are enthusiasts suffering again? Which cars are you referring to that are now worse off for not having manual gearboxes?

I'm guessing you don't mean things like new Ferraris, with which owners weren't really interested in manuals anyway and the press say has one of the best dual clutch boxes about. Or maybe you do mean a car you'll never own but still think should have a manual anyway.

Not one car in particular. Stick shifts are just generally disappearing. And again, we're not suffering performance wise, but being connected to the car through the shifter. This and my post above is just my opinion.

 

[Joey D]

Not one car in general. Stick shifts are just generally disappearing. And again, we're not suffering performance wise, but being connected to the car through the shifter. This and my post above is just my opinion.

But have you bought a brand new car with a manual?

And really I don't see how enthusiasts are suffering in any form, as I've said a majority of enthusiast buy second hand cars anyways...which will always be there. If all it takes is a lever to be connected to a car then I think a reevaluation needs to be considered. Even though I don't have a lever I have to move all the time, I am still very connect to my vehicle.

Really if you buy a car for any other reason then an appliance, you're probably going to be connected to it.