Save the Manuals!

[Andrew C]

Maybe "suffering" is the wrong word. I'll just say it blatantly.. Few new cars come with sticks (at least ones worth driving). Also, that's very true about second hand vehicles, but as time goes on, they'll have more and more owners and miles, and there will be less on the road. I was trying to be creative with my words . And yeah, you're connected with the car with an auto, but the stick just adds that much more.

 

[Joey D]

Maybe "suffering" is the wrong word. I'll just say it blatantly.. Few new cars come with sticks (at least ones worth driving). Also, that's very true about second hand vehicles, but as time goes on, they'll have more and more owners and miles, and there will be less on the road. I was trying to be creative with my words . And yeah, you're connected with the car with an auto, but the stick just adds that much more.

Right, fewer new cars come with sticks because that's what people buying new cars want. If you feel that manuals should be saved, you need to start buying new cars equipped with a manual trans to show the automakers there's a market out there. The only way to ensure a stock of used cars is to buy new ones first.

And it's subjective on the connectivity to a car with a manual, I think that's often forgotten.

 

[Punknoodle]

What is "driving"? It's directing the acceleration and deceleration of the car. That involves the throttle and brake (forward/backward) and steering (side-to-side). It does not involve selecting the gear ratio - which falls under the category of operating the car. To me, pure driving means not worrying about operating the car. It means being as connected to the act of driving as possible.

I have to disagree with you there. Selecting the gear ratio has a lot to do with driving fast. Like short shifting in to a higher gear ratio on some corners to limit wheel spin. Sure you can do that with a DSG but my point I'm making is that it is indeed part of driving/racing.

I like having a clutch pedal too. I like heel toeing. To me it is part of the experience.

 

[McLaren]

No I have not

Then that's all I needed to read.

Your racing preference has no relevance; 90% of new cars today aren't built to be tracked.

 

[homeforsummer]

Not one car in particular. Stick shifts are just generally disappearing. And again, we're not suffering performance wise, but being connected to the car through the shifter. This and my post above is just my opinion.

I never implied we were suffering performance wise.

You said enthusiasts were suffering. If these are the same enthusiasts that have kept on buying paddleshift Ferraris, for example, then how are they suffering by being offered what they want anyway?

People get awfully precious about things like supercars not being offered with a manual option any more, but the people who actually buy these cars don't want manuals, otherwise they'd be buying them.

I understand you sharing your opinion, but as Joey says - to ensure cars are still offered with a manual option, you have to buy them. If manuals are disappearing, then that's evidence that people don't really want them anyway - at least, people willing to put their money where their mouth is.

As an aside, only a relatively small proportion of manual gearshift/clutch combos are worth saving anyway. Many manual vehicles have a distinctly average manual shift. I don't entirely agree with Danoff's "operating a transmission" viewpoint on manuals - at least, good ones - but he actually has a point when it comes to the majority of vehicles. You don't really feel connected with many manual gearboxes, it just becomes something else you have to do to make your car move. Think about the last car you drove with a rubbery shift action and mushy biting point on the clutch - is that really worth saving for "connectedness" over even an average auto?

 

[turboash78]

My CRX Si was a stick, LOVED that car.
My current Tuscon is a manual as well, still makes it fun.

I must say, I have a huge hard-on for the new Buick Regal GS... 6-speed manual baby! Go GM!

 

[Joneseydrifts]

Does anyone know how much an auto-manual conversion on a 95' s14 would cost? I found one in good condition for sale in my neighborhood, and the price isn't bad, but it's an automatic. Just a ballpark estimate would help, assuming it's something I could do in my garage. I wouldn't be interested if Silvias weren't so rare in Illinois, but alas, I haven't seen more than three of four in my entire car-loving life.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

http://zilvia.net/f/archive-faqs/179560-s14-auto-manual-pics.html
This link might help.

 

[SkateNj]

@azure- Yea my dad taught me to drive manual last year. (Sorry for late response i havent really been in this section for a while)

 

[Jondot]

As an aside, only a relatively small proportion of manual gearshift/clutch combos are worth saving anyway. Many manual vehicles have a distinctly average manual shift. I don't entirely agree with Danoff's "operating a transmission" viewpoint on manuals - at least, good ones - but he actually has a point when it comes to the majority of vehicles. You don't really feel connected with many manual gearboxes, it just becomes something else you have to do to make your car move. Think about the last car you drove with a rubbery shift action and mushy biting point on the clutch - is that really worth saving for "connectedness" over even an average auto?

That's kinda my issue with the manual fanboyism - I don't think it's a case for a blanket 'everything needs a manual option'. Vauxhall spring to mind, purely because I don't think they should be allowed to produce gearboxes you actually have to interact with. Where manual gearboxes are hand whisks and automatics are Kenwood Chefs, Vauxhall give you half a wooden spoon and instruct you to stir.

Besides, I reckon you can have fun in anything if you try hard enough. Sort of, anyway. Last time I drove automatic it was a Prius, and that was great fun - felt like driving a big remote control car with a reasonable stereo. I've enjoyed those from a driving point of view far more than most ropey manuals. The Yaris, for example, doesn't need a manual - it's not particularly enjoyable shift so it may as well not be there and save me the fuss of moving a clunky stick about the place.

 

[Gil]

And the clutch was about 18 inches from the accelerator?

I drive manual as well but Im happy to see more dsg action in the market.

It wasn't more than a foot at the most!
I'm still waiting on those dollar "contributions"...
I'm old, but I can still "heel and toe". Moreover, I truly enjoy it.
I guess that some of us are a dying breed. I like a car that I can ENJOY driving. It makes the journey more interesting.
In most cases, that means a stick-shift.
I have driven a few "manumatics" that I've enjoyed. The Infiniti G35 comes to mind. It is one car that you could literally flip a coin for the auto or the manual, and enjoy whichever. The manual is WAY more challenging because he clutch is so tricky that even the guys at Road and Track aren't too fond of it....
Keep the skills alive guys. But remember, pretty soon, the cars will be driving us, not the other way round like it should be.

 

[Danoff]

As for the topic at hand, the only way to save the manuals is to buy new cars that are equipped with one. And since it seems like a common thought is that new cars suck, I don't think the manuals will be saved anytime soon.

There has to be a demand for features for automakers to include them so it can be profitable. It's not exactly cheap to make a manual and an automatic version of a car, there are many things that need to be redesigned and re-engineered. Automakers are just going to go with whatever has the greatest demand, that's why you see so many hot hatches and sport compacts offered with manuals and not family sedans.

Honestly in a world where double clutches are getting better and even standard auto transmissions are getting 8-9 speeds manuals make very little sense. A double clutch will shift faster and offer better fuel economy, the same goes for the new 8+ speed auto trans as well, although the shifting may not be as quick (I haven't driven one).

Petitioning online isn't going to do anything, you need to go purchase a new product. If you aren't going to buy one, then don't complain when the manuals are dead, you had your chance. But it probably won't matter anyway. Anyone who desires a manual will have probably bought a second hand car anyways.

But have you bought a brand new car with a manual?

And really I don't see how enthusiasts are suffering in any form, as I've said a majority of enthusiast buy second hand cars anyways...which will always be there. If all it takes is a lever to be connected to a car then I think a reevaluation needs to be considered. Even though I don't have a lever I have to move all the time, I am still very connect to my vehicle.

Really if you buy a car for any other reason then an appliance, you're probably going to be connected to it.

Right, fewer new cars come with sticks because that's what people buying new cars want. If you feel that manuals should be saved, you need to start buying new cars equipped with a manual trans to show the automakers there's a market out there. The only way to ensure a stock of used cars is to buy new ones first.

And it's subjective on the connectivity to a car with a manual, I think that's often forgotten.

👍👍

I have to disagree with you there. Selecting the gear ratio has a lot to do with driving fast. Like short shifting in to a higher gear ratio on some corners to limit wheel spin. Sure you can do that with a DSG but my point I'm making is that it is indeed part of driving/racing.

I like having a clutch pedal too. I like heel toeing. To me it is part of the experience.

Yea, selecting a gear ratio has a lot to do with going fast. Operating the car in general has a lot to do with going fast - that doesn't mean it's driving. Minimizing weight in the car has a lot to do with going fast too - that's not driving either. Neither is getting the right weight distribution. Using your blinker isn't driving either by the way, it's part of operating the vehicle (like turning on the radio), but it isn't driving.

Heel toeing is indeed part of the experience (if you have a manual), but it isn't driving. I maintain that driving purists should considering heel toeing an unnecessarily disconnected interference from the real act of driving - controlling the acceleration of the car.

 

[Punknoodle]

That's ridiculous though, in your argument you are saying that your only tasks when racing should be driving, as in steering and accelerating, I put it to you that selecting gear ratio is just as important and you say yes it is, but it falls under the category of "operating" the car? I say it is just as important as "operating" the accelerator or brake, or steering wheel, when ultimate lap speed is the goal.

Choosing the gear ratio is a key factor in going fast. No matter if it's done by paddles, manual whatever. It's up there with steering and accelerating. It shouldn't fall under the same category as "operating" the indicators etc.

 

[Danoff]

That's ridiculous though, in your argument you are saying that your only tasks when racing should be driving, as in steering and accelerating

Not quite what I said. The only tasks that I consider "driving" are controlling the acceleration of the car (accelerating meaning steering, speeding up, and braking). The purer the interface to the driver for accelerating the car the purer the driving experience. Nothing to do with racing here.

Generally speaking you need to operate a number of things about the car aside from accelerating it. If I remember correctly, Michael Schumacher is known for adjusting brake balance in his car on the fly in between corners. That would clearly fall under the category of "operating" the car rather than "driving" the car. It definitely also falls under the blanket category of "racing".

My whole point is that anything that gets in between me and controlling the foward-backward-side-to-side movement of the car is a degradation of a pure driving experience. That includes on-the-fly balancing of the brakes, turn signals, or operating a clutch.

(I am by no means advocating that you should stop using your turn signal.... use your turn signal!)

I put it to you that selecting gear ratio is just as important and you say yes it is, but it falls under the category of "operating" the car? I say it is just as important as "operating" the accelerator or brake, or steering wheel, when ultimate lap speed is the goal.

Agreed. But the ultimate lap speed is not my goal - my goal is the a pure driving experience in which I can feel as connected as possible to the act of driving (accelerating the car). Operating the brake, steering wheel, etc. are all currently required for that - but those interfaces should be as simple and direct as possible so as to isolate me as much as can be from the process of operating the vehicle.

I am not attached to any one aspect of operating the vehicle. I don't particularly care that my feet operate the accelerator and my hands operate the steering wheel. If a car was designed that used hands to operate the accelerator and feet to operate the steering I would be open to it as long as I felt it offered a greater connection to the act of driving the car (which I don't think it would).


To Summarize:

Attachment to a particular way of operating the car (a stick that you move around to select the gear, a pedal that you use to engage/disengage the selected gear) is simply nostalgia. Driving is an act that can be done with any number of human interfaces to varying degrees of success. We should be more concerned with the act of driving than with attachment to a particular interface.

 

[Punknoodle]

Roll centre, brake bias etc yeah sure they get adjusted as well in racing and that does fall under the operating category because they are not something you do to get the vehicle from a to b, more to change they way in which it gets there. But without changing gear ratio you won't move anywhere...

I stand by my thoughts, you are entitled to your opinion and that's fine. A manual transmission enables you to make the car move around differently too, eg getting it sideways. Makes it easier at least. It gives you more control. Anyway I won't bother anymore I'm not trying to convince anyone, just saying that I'm happy the way it works right now so I'm happy to stick with it. And yes, I am open to change as long as I like it.

 

[Perfect Balance]

To Summarize:

Attachment to a particular way of operating the car (a stick that you move around to select the gear, a pedal that you use to engage/disengage the selected gear) is simply nostalgia. Driving is an act that can be done with any number of human interfaces to varying degrees of success. We should be more concerned with the act of driving than with attachment to a particular interface.

I guess I'd have to say then, the enjoyment of "driving" for me isn't simply the act of moving across the earth in a vehicle. I enjoy it because of the actions involved, accelerating, steering, braking, and shifting. I like when these things have a direct mechanical feel to them, that's what makes driving enjoyable for me.

For example, I don't enjoy driving something like a Chevy Blazer or a PT Cruiser, even if it's on the same stretch of road that I enjoy driving my car on. It's more about the experience than the actual result. I like the mechanical connection to the engine and transmission, and feeling the vibrations through the shifter. I don't particularly like transmissions with shift cables for this reason, as well as drive by wire throttle control.

I don't even know what to call it then, since you insist that operating a transmission isn't part of driving, but I can assure you, I don't enjoy operating a transmission that is out of a car/in one that isn't moving, so make of it what you will, but I need to be driving the car to make shifting enjoyable.

 

[Zenith]

@azure- Yea my dad taught me to drive manual last year. (Sorry for late response i havent really been in this section for a while)

The point is that you're 14 and have nowhere near enough experience to discuss this matter.

 

[Danoff]

I don't even know what to call it then, since you insist that operating a transmission isn't part of driving, but I can assure you, I don't enjoy operating a transmission that is out of a car/in one that isn't moving, so make of it what you will, but I need to be driving the car to make shifting enjoyable.

I'd call it nostalgia. Could be based on experiences, hollywood, or something else.

 

[CMvan46]

I'd call it nostalgia. Could be based on experiences, hollywood, or something else.

I think I agree. My first 2 cars were manual but that's because that's all I could afford. I've got an automatic now but I still love driving and it's nice having the freedom of that free hand, although it still holds the shifter as it's a habit now.

I think manual transmissions are built up in people's minds as the sexier thing to drive and however that came to be I'm not entirely sure. Could be Hollywood movies but that's another topic entirely.

I very much enjoyed the driving experience I have in my automatic. I drive in traffic routinely and it's nice not having to constantly pump the clutch as you speed up and slow down over and over.

There is no doubt manuals provide more control over your car, there is no debating that. I can see why some people would want that control but for me it's not necessary. I wish automatics are looked at the way they are today but with time, as the thread started with, manuals will become less and less of a common transmission. Even beyond what they are now.

 

[Punknoodle]

Nostalgia implying its past tense? Can't it just be called "fun"?

 

[TsLeng]

My experience of driving is mainly torque converter autos of bland family saloons (4-speeders) , a brief period with my own manual old-banger of a renault clio plus the odd manual hire cars.

I had always been very excited about getting a hire car because I know it will be a manual and I shall have fun! In older cars, manuals will usually be more efficient as well if one drives it properly.

But as auto transmissions improved massively I am now at the point where I can appreciate a good auto and prefer it over a manual. However, that did not prepare me to be blown away by the grand daddy of them all, the DSG.

What happened was I hired a car for a week for a road trip round the Scottish highlands. So, I was dreaming whether it would be a Golf (mm not bad!) or maybe a Focus (nice!) or Astra (well... still a manual trans..). I had great expectations of driving round some good roads, in a smallish car with a manual transmission.

Imagine what they gave me A VW Sharan MPV (I booked a Golf or similar car) 2.0 diesel with a 6 speed DSG! Well, there goes my 'dreams' and I am stuck with an MPV for a week driving about some excellent roads.
What happened was over the course of the week I had with the car, I realised what an amazing gearbox it is. It shifts so fast, so smoothly just like the best auto while giving none of the torque converter lag.

I am sold. Yes, after driving of all things, a big MPV with a DSG gearbox, I absolutely adore those things. (I must add that I was very impressed by the car as well. Averaged 46 UK mpg compared to the 45 I got more recently on a 1.4 petrol, manual trans Astra) DSG must be the future...

Danoff puts it spot on

For most DSGs you can put them in automatic mode and then (if you have a good one) you have the best automatic you've ever driven. Then if you want to control the gear, they're the best manual you've ever driven.

As a final note, there will still be manual transmission cars but they will be a niche. And yes, in older cars too.

 

[TheCracker]

You said enthusiasts were suffering. If these are the same enthusiasts that have kept on buying paddleshift Ferraris, for example, then how are they suffering by being offered what they want anyway?

People get awfully precious about things like supercars not being offered with a manual option any more, but the people who actually buy these cars don't want manuals, otherwise they'd be buying them.

Apparently one of the major reason new UK bought Ferraris/Lamborghinis/Porsches are sold with paddleshift/PDK is that dealers encourage buyers to order it with the paddle over manual, reasoning that it will be worth more when they come to sell it on. Looking at secondhand values, i would say this is hokum at best and quite possibly clearly untrue.

No doubt manufacturers push dealers in this direction so eventually, as Ferrari pretty much are now, only offering paddle-shift autos on their cars. It's cheap for them to have to only engineer a single type of transmission on a new model, and autos have a greater scope for hitting the ever more stringent emission targets.

I'd personally hate to see manual transmission cars disappear, for me the process of changing gear is just as much a part of driving as turning the steering wheel or pressing the accelerator or brake pedals. It certainly doesn't make the job of driving any harder, you mostly do it without even thinking about it.

If you're going to get rid of manual transmissions, why not just go the whole hog and have cars that steer, start and stop themselves too?

 

[phil bell]

I'd personally hate to see manual transmission cars disappear, for me the process of changing gear is just as much a part of driving as turning the steering wheel or pressing the accelerator or brake pedals. It certainly doesn't make the job of driving any harder, you mostly do it without even thinking about it.

I agree 100% with this. And might I add if a 17 year old can drive a 10 year old Toyota Hiace manual (that served it's life as a research van for university field trips, ie students abusing it) without much trouble I don't see why it's such a chore.Fun too surprisingly, much more so than the non shiftable auto!

And IMO there are some cars that are better off with a manual than their manumatic options like the E46 M3, Evo 7, R8 4.2...Because their manumatics are rather poor.

If you're going to get rid of manual transmissions, why not just go the whole hog and have cars that steer, start and stop themselves too?

However I don't agree with this too much, as some cars are better off with a good dual clutch setup like the Ferrari 458, E92 M3...They are precision tools after all.
And some cars are better off with an auto like the Jaguar XKR, Aston Martin DB9, Mercedes s65...Where big torque helps and smooth shifting is a priority.

 

[CMvan46]

If you're going to get rid of manual transmissions, why not just go the whole hog and have cars that steer, start and stop themselves too?

They have those. Google has a small fleet of them and in quite a while of using them have only had one crash, which was them being rear ended. That day is coming sooner than you think.

Edit: they even have a patent now for barcodes that help you parallel park or anything else they like.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ng-strip-guides-driver-cars-tight-spaces.html

 

[nitrorocks]

I would like to join, it would show those idiots that driving is still strong

 

[Danoff]

If you're going to get rid of manual transmissions, why not just go the whole hog and have cars that steer, start and stop themselves too?

I don't think you can call yourself a driving enthusiast if you think that driving an automatic is equivalent to not driving at all.

 

[homeforsummer]

Apparently one of the major reason new UK bought Ferraris/Lamborghinis/Porsches are sold with paddleshift/PDK is that dealers encourage buyers to order it with the paddle over manual, reasoning that it will be worth more when they come to sell it on. Looking at secondhand values, i would say this is hokum at best and quite possibly clearly untrue.

I think there's an interesting point to be raised there. Most likely, the original owners did want the F1-style transmissions over the manual option, and not necessarily to do with resale. Many of the people who can afford those cars aren't necessarily driving enthusiasts like you or I, but love the idea of a bit of F1 tech in their cars, for the kudos.

When the cars reach the second-hand market, genuine enthusiasts who may not have been able to afford a new one tend to want the manual option, and with fewer on the roads, the value of manuals goes up.

That's my hypothesis anyway.

On a personal level, the only Porsches I'd not choose PDK on now are the Cayman R and GT3 RS. Any other Porsche I actually think I'd rather have PDK. Apart from anything, performance cars are getting so ridiculously quick these days that I'd rather not have to take one hand off the wheel for a gearchange as I'm roaring past 150mph. Back when 911s only had 200bhp a manual gearbox was absolutely fine.

No doubt manufacturers push dealers in this direction so eventually, as Ferrari pretty much are now, only offering paddle-shift autos on their cars. It's cheap for them to have to only engineer a single type of transmission on a new model, and autos have a greater scope for hitting the ever more stringent emission targets.

That's more of an issue now than it was when they introduced paddleshift systems. Back then, they weren't as efficient as manuals, and they couldn't possibly have known that dual clutch would be both faster, smoother and more economical than manual in the future.

I'd personally hate to see manual transmission cars disappear, for me the process of changing gear is just as much a part of driving as turning the steering wheel or pressing the accelerator or brake pedals. It certainly doesn't make the job of driving any harder, you mostly do it without even thinking about it.

Agreed. I barely register changing gear now. It's second nature and varies as unconsciously as letting an auto do its own work, based on road conditions.

If you're going to get rid of manual transmissions, why not just go the whole hog and have cars that steer, start and stop themselves too?

Don't quite agree. There's a long, long way between giving control of swapping cogs to a computer and handing over steering and motion as well. As has been mentioned above, a few companies are exploring autonomous cars at the moment. Aside from the fact that technically they're absolutely amazing, the amount of processing power that goes into making a car drive by itself is massive compared to the software that lets a DSG work. I'm sure you knew that anyway, but it's worth stating the obvious.

 

[Skython]

Add me to the list!!! No one can experience driver to the full without having a proper manual!!!

 

[MedigoFlame]

You could add me to the list. I've been a part of the Car and Driver group for their Save The Manuals campaign for a while. I'd like to be a part of the gtplanet group as well. The joy of using a car to it's fullest, and not conforming to the laziness of people today. The truth is, if everyone drove a manual, we wouldn't have much multitasking while driving. LESS ACCIDENTS! I feel like it could lower the amount of distracted drivers and decrease the amount of bad drivers who can't figure out how to work it. Along with that, discouraging car thieves. (One story from jalopnik) http://jalopnik.com/5870457/further-proof-stick-shifts-stop-car-crime

Soon enough, I will be able to drive a manual car. My friends told me that they are willing to teach me, using their cars. The reason for this is that I'm looking for a new car and becoming very wary of limiting my searches to automatics... It's driving me crazy, avoiding cars that have a manual gearbox.

 

[Joey D]

My best friend drives a manual 330i and he is the most distracted driver I've ever seen in my entire life, so no, manuals do not magically do away with distractions. You'd probably end up with more accidents since people would be fumbling with their phone or burger while trying to operate the transmission and steer the car. Is it right? No, but that's how people drive today.

Also since when is not wiggling a level make you lazy? That's a very misguided statement.