Should Atheists Celebrate Christmas?

[Swift]

Why does it betray his faith to celebrate a secular holiday?

Christmas is multiple holidays in one. It's a religious holiday, it's a secular holdiay, and it's a seasonal celebration. Some people celebrate all three at once. Others pick and choose.

Jewish people detest the idea of Christ being the messiah, period. So something that is a symbol of Christ's entry into the world is blastphamy.

Also, I disagree. Christmas in America is not multiple holidays in one. It has been turned into that. But it began specifically as the celebration of Christ's birth. That's what the day is about. Now the retail establishment has made it into a cash cow, but it didn't start that way.

This is my point.

 

[Danoff]

Jewish people detest the idea of Christ being the messiah, period. So something that is a symbol of Christ's entry into the world is blastphamy.

Exactly what part of Santa Claus putting gifts under an evergreen is a symbol of Christ?

Christmas in America is not multiple holidays in one. It has been turned into that.

...and so it is. It has been turned into that, done, end of story. Christmas in America is not simply a celebration of Christ, but an amalgum of religious and seasonal celebrations from which many people from different cultures pick and choose.

Now the retail establishment has made it into a cash cow, but it didn't start that way.

The retail establishment didn't create the secular version of Christmas either. The secular version of Christmas is, as Famine pointed out earlier, the result of seasonal and pegan celebrations.

 

[Diego440]

I know Swift... it's just my usual sarcasm, this time particularly thick, I'm afraid.

Being in a traditional Catholic country, here they celebrate Christmas in the religious way, with the midnight mass and all the similar paraphernalia. Actually, the time of exchanging gifts is January 6th, with the Three Wise Men (or Three Wizard Kings, depending on where you're from).

But still, my example isn't the best since 98% of the people around here are Catholics who adore other idols, mainly regional virgins and whatever else. But still, the catholic custom is not enforced, people just take it as one more reason to get together and get drunk, mostly.

 

[Swift]

Exactly what part of Santa Claus putting gifts under an evergreen is a symbol of Christ?

You're right. That's a completely different religion.

...and so it is. It has been turned into that, done, end of story. Christmas in America is not simply a celebration of Christ, but an amalgum of religious and seasonal celebrations from which many people from different cultures pick and choose.

Right. So just because something "is" a certain way makes it ok and acceptable? I know you wouldn't apply that logic to affirmative action or welfare in America.

The retail establishment didn't create the secular version of Christmas either. The secular version of Christmas is, as Famine pointed out earlier, the result of seasonal and pagan celebrations.

I realize that the date of Christmas and the like come from seasonal and pagan celebrations. But that doesn't mean that Christmas itself is a secular holiday. People simply choose to make it what they like to have fun. That's all well and good as I said before. However, it's when people want to play both sides of the court by having Christmas and being offended by Christ at the same time, that get me upset.

I know Swift... it's just my usual sarcasm, this time particularly thick, I'm afraid.

DANG! I'm missing all the sacarsam this week!

 

[Kent]

I think you've all read too deeply into my words (or just plain mistaken them).

I do not mean to imply that atheist are Klans man or that there is hate of any kind involved.

Rather, I mean to say that...

If you are of party A, then it is foolish to participate in the holiday of Party -A (or whatever you could call the anti-A party).

Furthermore, if my words are not taken in-part but rather in-whole...

I say enjoy the festivities but don't celebrate Christmas

That exact sentence is meant to say (in another way)...
Have fun and enjoy the festivities (friends, family, time together and time to rest), but do not address the event as a holiday since your beliefs do not recognize anything special about that particular event.

So with that said... Can you all understand that my point was, simply put... Enjoy life when it is sweet but do not celebrate what you do not believe (if you are true to your beliefs).

With that in mind, I want to remind everyone that many of us live in places where there is a growing and distinct divide between the idea of a winter holiday and the Christmas holiday.

I hope that clears up what I quickly stated earlier. 👍

Btw, thanks for the negative rep guys... way to jump on the Racism hot button.
(I know where it came from too but I'm just not the type to neg rep over a mis-understood or contraversial post)

 

[Danoff]

Right. So just because something "is" a certain way makes it ok and acceptable? I know you wouldn't apply that logic to affirmative action or welfare in America.

We're talking about the definition of Christmas here... and it's defined by the people that use the term. Personally I'd like to break the secular celebration off and call it Santamas, but it's hard to change the cultural lexicon. As it is, we're stuck with a multi-definition Christmas that means more than one type of celebration.

However, it's when people want to play both sides of the court by having Christmas and being offended by Christ at the same time, that get me upset.

You want Christmas to go back to being about Christ. They want Christmas to convert all the way to secularism. The proper solution is to break individual celebrations off and call them something else. Merry Santamas wouldn't offend anyone, but we don't use that because people aren't used to it.

You're upset that the word Christmas was stolen for secular purposes, and I am too. I'd prefer to have my own terminology that was clearly distinguishable from Christiantiy but I don't get that. You'd like terminology that's distinguishable from secularism but you don't get it either.

 

[Kent]

Is it really idiotic to see the parallel between Atheist who do not believe in God celebrating the holiday to honor "the son of god" and Racist celebrating the day to honor Dr. King (the ideal anti-racism spokesman)?

I'd say it's not idoitic at all.
Sad, maybe, but idiotic... Well, I'd think he who can not see the parallel is the one without intelligence.

Atheist fight "god" at every chance, celebrating a specific religous holiday goes against everything they believe.

Of course, enjoying the festivities you create on your own, that's a whole different story now isn't it.

Btw, danoff, wolf2x7, the cracka all picked up positive rep for various reasons (all listed in the rep's comment).

 

[Swift]

You're upset that the word Christmas was stolen for secular purposes, and I am too. I'd prefer to have my own terminology that was clearly distinguishable from Christiantiy but I don't get that. You'd like terminology that's distinguishable from secularism but you don't get it either.

I think that puts it very well.

Atheist fight "god" at every chance, celebrating a specific religous holiday goes against everything they believe.

Of course, enjoying the festivities you create on your own, that's a whole different story now isn't it.

Yep, pretty stupid stuff.

 

[Diego440]

Atheist fight "god" at every chance, celebrating a specific religous holiday goes against everything they believe.

Of course, enjoying the festivities you create on your own, that's a whole different story now isn't it.

I think you're mistaken there. Atheists don't fight god. They just don't believe in god. Some will go as far as saying there is no god, but never does it involve "fighting". Besides, as said before, Christmas has become more of a consumist season than religious, so celebrating it doesn't betray any beliefs, imo.

Just a side note, isn't part of the beauty of the rep system its anonimity? Then +/- repping a mod is counterproductive because they can find out who it was... that sucks.

 

[Famine]

Atheist fight "god" at every chance, celebrating a specific religous holiday goes against everything they believe.

Just to elaborate on Diego's point, this sentence is erroneous.

Atheists don't fight "god" because they just simply don't perceive "god" as existing. Okay, this may be a poor choice of words - Hezb'Allah fight Israel precisely because they don't perceive Israel as existing, but the difference is that they acknowledge that it does exist but don't acknowledge that they have a right to exist. Atheists, generally, are the other way round - they acknowledge that people who believe in a "god" have a right to believe in a "god", but don't acknowledge that a "god" exists.

Similarly, wishing their friends and relatives who DO believe in a "god" a Merry Christmas is just courtesy. Or any other religious festival - Eid, Diwali, Remadan, Yom Kippur, Kwanza, whatever. Wearing a silly hat and getting hammered on sherry trifle doesn't go "against everything they believe" because they don't have belief for it to go against.


Would anyone of a religious persuasion like to address my "Year" point?

 

[Swift]

Just a side note, isn't part of the beauty of the rep system its anonimity? Then +/- repping a mod is counterproductive because they can find out who it was... that sucks.

Actually no. You can find out who gave you rep. But you'll have to find the exact post that gave you the +/- rep. Just like the mods have to do.

 

[kennythebomb]

So?

As ledhead said, who cares about being PC?

I'm not worried about offending someone by saying Merry Christmas. Infact, I contend that if you ARE offended by someone wishing you a Merry Christmas then that's your problem(In America at least). This happy holidays is ridiculous. Granted, if you don't believe in Christ for whatever reason that's your business. But I'm not going to go out of my way to check if your a muslim, buddist or atheist before I wish you a Merry Christmas. Just take the well wishes and roll on

BTW, I'm not blowing up on you Diego. Just the general thought of political correctness. Especially when it's applied to Christmas.

I agree 100%. If someone is offended by my saying 'Merry Christmas' well... I didn't mean any offense so they have no right to get all pissy over it. +rep

Oh, and I didn't catch Diego's sarcasm either.... very masked.

 

[Kent]

I think you guys are getting off on "fight" just a bit much aren't you?
Now, when I say "fight" I mean, oppose anything religous being publicly acknowledged.
To develop that further, to Celebrate something can be defined as ... "to observe or commemorate with ceremonies or festivities."

That said, atheist are in fact, more often than not politically, socially, culturally, fighting "God." For to only recognize his existance is contrary to an Atheist's beliefs.

On a side note of that...
Famine, what's up man, you just trying to rub it in? Dang man.
Deigo, what's the big deal man? It's not like me knowing who did the neg rep has any repercussions (as I certainly did not neg rep whoever did it to me in return).

Finally, sorry mod staff for dropping the ball on both the clarity of my words as well as the extent of my super-mod investigative powers.

In any case, I hope I've managed to clear up what was a clarification of my earlier statements.
Likewise, I hope my earlier statements are not still misunderstood (as it seems only a select few have understood the meaning and not the words alone).
(pointing to my previous replies)

So, any other questions or comments for me?

Btw, I do not consider the generalized lack of understanding for the meaning of Christmas to be an acceptable reason for ignoring the basic facts.
Just because society seems to have adopted a corporate Christmas policy doesn't mean the actual members of society do not value the original purpose, intent, or concept of Christmas.

To say it another way... If many of us consider the 24hours of LeMans a showcasing race for the worlds largest automobile manufacturers and nothing more, would it erase the actual sporting value of the race? I say no.

Changing your perception of an event may change your opinion but the actual meaning of the event will not change as long as the majority of active participants still value the original idea.

That said, I believe it is still common knowledge that Christmas is the Christian holiday to celebrate the birth of Jesus (despite the issues related to the commercial exploitation of Christmas found in many countries).

 

[Diego440]

I'll be sure to make my sarcasm clearer next time

Kent: you've made your points clear now... thanks for that

 

[Duke]

I'm an atheist, and I celebrate the generic winter holidays that surround the Northern Hemisphere's winter solstice around 21 December. I tend to celebrate it on 25 DEcember because that's the day my American employer, in the Christian Tradition, gives me the day off. But frankly it could be any date around that time.

If you're that bothered about it, you can always say you're celebrating Isaac Newton's birthday, to get a little Enlightenment in there.

I always wish people "Happy Holidays" because there are so many different cultures celebrating around that time that I see no reason to assume that any given person I'm talking to is Christian. Frankly I can't see what could possibly be offensive about someone wishing you "Happy Holidays" - you're free to decide for yourself which holiday is meant. But if someone specifically wishes me a "Merry Christmas", it rubs me a little bit the wrong way. It implies that the user either A) doesn't consider the possibility that I might not be Christian, or B) doesn't care. Either one has a faint whiff of arrogance that doesn't sit well with me. Not enough to get truly offended about, but enough to have ocurred to me more than once.

 

[kennythebomb]

That said, atheist are in fact, more often than not politically, socially, culturally, fighting "God." For to only recognize his existance is contrary to an Atheist's beliefs.

I think this is a generalization that really cannot be expressed as an absolute.

I would say that generally, atheists resist God. Some more than others. Some have an agenda to remove God from every aspect of society. Others are much more reasonable and keep it a private matter... in other words they don't try to convert others to their religion.

In terms of celebrating Christmas, it's the same way.

I also don't think that an atheist is recognizing God's existence by celebrating Christmas. Sure, the holiday has a large religious connotation now... but not entirely. As others have pointed out, it is so commercialized and Santa has replaced Jesus as the central focus.

I would applaud a Jewish man celebrating Christmas, so that his kids are not going to feel left out, and so if his family merely celebrates the 'spirit' of the holiday without recognizing Jesus... well okay that's their prerogative.

Just because society seems to have adopted a corporate Christmas policy doesn't mean the actual members of society do not value the original purpose, intent, or concept of Christmas.

The original purpose, intent, or concept of Christmas is debatable, seeing as how the holiday's original intent is to celebrate winter. The meaning of Christmas was added to the holiday... so if we go by Duke's celebration of the winter solstice then it is entirely and completely acceptable and non-hypocritical for him to do that. It also so happens that it's a great time to catch up with friends.

Can you clarify what you mean by 'the actual members of society' ?

 

[Swift]

But if someone specifically wishes me a "Merry Christmas", it rubs me a little bit the wrong way. It implies that the user either A) doesn't consider the possibility that I might not be Christian, or B) doesn't care. Either one has a faint whiff of arrogance that doesn't sit well with me. Not enough to get truly offended about, but enough to have ocurred to me more than once.

Hmm..Duke, you know you're my boy and all. But I think it is you that is a bit arrogant here. The holiday is Christmas. End of discussion. You use Christmas Day to celebrate your "winter holiday". So on that note, someone wishing you a merry Christmas is very appropriate. Because on Christmas day, December 25th, you will be having your celebration. So, that person was actually very accurate. No matter your particular religious persuation.

Would anyone of a religious persuasion like to address my "Year" point?

Sure. But you already know what I'm going to say

 

[Duke]

Hmm..Duke, you know you're my boy and all. But I think it is you that is a bit arrogant here. The holiday is Christmas. End of discussion. You use Christmas Day to celebrate your "winter holiday". So on that note, someone wishing you a merry Christmas is very appropriate. Because on Christmas day, December 25th, you will be having your celebration. So, that person was actually very accurate. No matter your particular religious persuation.

...except that I start getting wished "Merry Christmas" somewhere about December 12th and it goes on through about the 28th. So by your logic, you're correct on December 25th, and I'm correct on the other 15 days.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Kent]

Here's the distinction I am seeing...

Celebrating Christmas .vs. Celebrating during the holidays.

If you give gifts and celebrate on the 25th of december then you are merely enjoying the holiday under your own circumstances.

However, if you are "celebrating Christmas" then you are specifically honoring the idea that Jesus Christ was born on this day and blah blah blah.

Point is... One is just having fun and celebrating during the end of december and the other is about honoring a specific religous holiday with a specific meaning.

Using Pass-Over as an example...
As a Jewish person you are honoring the religous holiday that respects your god's wish to liberate and care for your people. As a Christian though, you are only repsecting and honoring the generosity of your host.

Of course, in either case you will enjoy the company of friends and family. That is not the issue, the issue is Celebrating a religous holiday compared to just plain celebrating as you would have it without a religous context.

That is why I say Atheist should celebrate during the holidays but should not specifically celebrate Christmas.

 

[Swift]

...except that I start getting wished "Merry Christmas" somewhere about December 12th and it goes on through about the 28th. So by your logic, you're correct on December 25th, and I'm correct on the other 15 days.

Or am I missing something?

You're missing something. Wishing someone merry Christas early is like wishing someone "have a good weekend" on Thursday. It has yet to happen so they want to get it in while they can.

As far as after christmas, that's just people that get deep into the whole "spirit" of christmas and can't let it go.

 

[Duke]

You're missing something. Wishing someone merry Christas early is like wishing someone "have a good weekend" on Thursday. It has yet to happen so they want to get it in while they can.

As far as after christmas, that's just people that get deep into the whole "spirit" of christmas and can't let it go.

So basically what you're saying here is that Christmas is the only valid holiday in the second half of December, then?

 

[Swift]

Where did you get this:

So basically what you're saying here is that Christmas is the only valid holiday in the second half of December, then?

From this:

You're missing something. Wishing someone merry Christas early is like wishing someone "have a good weekend" on Thursday. It has yet to happen so they want to get it in while they can.

As far as after christmas, that's just people that get deep into the whole "spirit" of christmas and can't let it go.

Wait, I think I know what you mean now. You're saying that buy wishing someone "Merry Christmas" it's ignoring any and all other holidays that are coming up in the particular season before and during December 25th. Well, maybe that's the case. But it is Christmas. What other holiday happens between Thanksgiving and New years that shuts down the US government, gets almost everyone some time off and has an added financial bonus for a good amount of corporate America?

 

[Kent]

I was using "actual members of society" in context of the idea that Christmas has become nothing more than a commerical holiday (as presented by the commerical media).
Or, that is to say, just because the value on a surface level has been changed does not mean the value deeper down has changed.

Finally, I just want to make another analogy (without hot topic words)...

(context: Colonial Era In America's History)
For an Atheist to celebrate Christmas is much like a Loyalist celebrating the Fourth of July.

Last but not least... All good diego, I'm glad I was able to more clearly present my thoughts.

 

[Danoff]

... I think it is you that is a bit arrogant here. The holiday is Christmas. End of discussion.

Um... not for billions of people around the world. To assume that the only valid holiday in December is Christmas is about as arrogant as it gets.

Maybe I misunderstood what you mean by "the holiday is Christmas".

 

[Swift]

Um... not for billions of people around the world. To assume that the only valid holiday in December is Christmas is about as arrogant as it gets.

Maybe I misunderstood what you mean by "the holiday is Christmas".

First, I'm only talking about America.

Second, does anyone get offended by someone saying Happy Thanksgiving? Usually not. Though it was a VERY religious day when it began. We've generally forgoten about that part and just do the turkey and stuffing with the family all around. That's cool, no problem. But how is it offensive to say to ANYONE on November 15th or so, "Happy Thanksgiving"?

Here's what I don't get. If you're wishing someone well, you're not in any way, shape or form infringing on their rights as a person or freedom of religion. So if I wish you a happy Kwanza, Merry Christmas, Happy new year or Happy flag day it simply shouldn't draw offense because it's wishing you well.

BTW, I really missed these debates with you and Duke. I'm glad we're back at it again

 

[Duke]

Where did you get this:

I got it from your previous post:

Hmm..Duke, you know you're my boy and all. But I think it is you that is a bit arrogant here. The holiday is Christmas. End of discussion.

That's why I specifically asked if you meant just on Christmas Day (December 25) or not. You answered that wishing someone "Merry Christmas" on December 15 was just getting an early start on it.

Which, as I said, strikes me as (unintentionally) arrogant on that person's part. By specifically wishing me "Merry Christmas" on a day other than December 25, either they are assuming that I'm Christian (consciously or unconciously), or they are assuming that my religion is not important compared to theirs.

Like I said, this is not particularly OVERT, and I doubt if it's intentional, but it is the subtext that underlies the whole issue from my point of view.

Wait, I think I know what you mean now. You're saying that by wishing someone "Merry Christmas" it's ignoring any and all other holidays that are coming up in the particular season before and during December 25th.

Bingo.

Well, maybe that's the case. But it is Christmas. What other holiday happens between Thanksgiving and New years that shuts down the US government, gets almost everyone some time off and has an added financial bonus for a good amount of corporate America?

It is Christmas. It's also a half-dozen other things, which are equally important to the people who celebrate them as Christmas is to you.

And frankly, I don't care if Christmas is a national holiday - it shouldn't be. Not everyone celebrates it, and it has no direct historical significance to the history of the US such as President's Day, Memorial Day, and Independence Day have. Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and New Years are strictly secular and open to all, both religious and non-religious. Christmas is the only one that is based on religion, and it's based on a particular religion at that.

I'd never say that Christians should be prevented from celebrating their Saviour's birth... just that they should not assume that everyone else does. That's where the 'arrogance' sneaks in.

 

[Pupik]

Would anyone of a religious persuasion like to address my "Year" point?

Yes...you should be writing 5766 on those Christmas cards.

As a formerly Jewish athiest, I see no problem with celebrating anyone else's holiday, so as long as you're not disrespecting it. As far as I've studied, every religion has a basic sence of respect for mankind (although there's always narrow-minded extremists who don't if they bow in a different direction).

 

[Swift]

And frankly, I don't care if Christmas is a national holiday - it shouldn't be. Not everyone celebrates it, and it has no direct historical significance to the history of the US such as President's Day, Memorial Day, and Independence Day have. Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and New Years are strictly secular and open to all, both religious and non-religious. Christmas is the only one that is based on religion, and it's based on a particular religion at that.

I'd never say that Christians should be prevented from celebrating their Saviour's birth... just that they should not assume that everyone else does. That's where the 'arrogance' sneaks in.

I don't think you read the post above this one before posting your reply

Also, thanksgiving is VERY religious. The history of it is anyway. I know Lincoln made it the fourth Thursday in November. But the original day was to give thanks to God and the native Americans for surving as long as they had.

I still maintain that if you get upset at someone wishing you well in a polite and cheerful manner then the problem is you. Now, if that person is saying things like "You'll go to hell without excepting Christ" and persist after you tell them to stop. That's a different story. But saying "Have a nice Christmas" How is that offensive?

 

[Duke]

I still maintain that if you get upset at someone wishing you well in a polite and cheerful manner then the problem is you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seemed to be offended if someone wishes you "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Certainly the vocal religious right screaming about Target stores or Wlamart or whoever putting up "Happy Holidays" signs are offended.

Is "Happy Holidays" not polite or cheerful enough?

But saying "Have a nice Christmas" How is that offensive?

For all the reasons I've explained above. And as I've stressed, it's not patently "Let's step outside a minute, buddy" offensive. But it does carry an undertone of disrespect (likely unintentional disrespectg, as I've also stressed).

 

[Danoff]

First, I'm only talking about America.

Second, does anyone get offended by someone saying Happy Thanksgiving? Usually not. Though it was a VERY religious day when it began. We've generally forgoten about that part and just do the turkey and stuffing with the family all around. That's cool, no problem. But how is it offensive to say to ANYONE on November 15th or so, "Happy Thanksgiving"?

Here's what I don't get. If you're wishing someone well, you're not in any way, shape or form infringing on their rights as a person or freedom of religion. So if I wish you a happy Kwanza, Merry Christmas, Happy new year or Happy flag day it simply shouldn't draw offense because it's wishing you well.

BTW, I really missed these debates with you and Duke. I'm glad we're back at it again

You're fighting back against a point I wasn't really trying to make, although I think Duke is making that point, so this response was perfectly valid for him.

My point was in response to your statement "The holiday is Christmas. End of discussion." I'm not offended when people wish me Merry Christmas because I assume they're talking about the secular holiday, which, like Thanksgiving, everyone can participate in. If someone wished me happy Chanukah I would get offended because Chanukah isn't ALSO the name of a secular holiday.

But saying something like "The holiday is christmas. End of discussion." is disrespectful of the fact that there are a myriad of other holidays celebrated around the end of the calendar year. Quite simply put, the holiday is not necessarily Christmas, to assume otherwise is arrogant.

But wishing someone Merry Christmas is secular as often as it is religious, which is why I often do it.