Should Atheists Celebrate Christmas?

[Omnis]

Hey, Jesus was still a human. I don't see why anybody shouldn't be allowed to celebrate a birthday.

 

[Famine]

For an Atheist to celebrate Christmas is much like a Loyalist celebrating the Fourth of July.

Though there's nothing wrong with a Loyalist celebrating ON the 4th July.

I'm a little curious though - again a question of our religious friends. Why is Christmas unarguably the biggest celebration of the year (I have no familiarity with Thanksgiving, so I don't know how big it is relatively) when the most important celebration of the Christian calendar is Easter Sunday?

And frankly, I don't care if Christmas is a national holiday - it shouldn't be. Not everyone celebrates it, and it has no direct historical significance to the history of the US such as President's Day, Memorial Day, and Independence Day have. Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and New Years are strictly secular and open to all, both religious and non-religious.

While the celebration of a New Year is not a strictly religious act - it marks a semi-abitrary point where a new orbit is deemed to have started, using the Earth's perihelion as a reference point - there is a highly religious core to it. It is the celebration of the end of one year, Anno Domini, and the start of another. We count our years from the supposed year of Christ's birth... There are several other religious and territorial new year events - Jewish New Year, Chinese New Year, Islamic New Year, Thai New Year - which do not fall on January 1st (and indeed the calendar does not have Roman-derived months in at all) or mark the passing of a year A.D.

So I'd posit that New Year is in fact much more secular in origin, though unadopted by Christianity, than the Solstice-based Winter festival which has latterly become adopted by Christianity.

 

[Swift]

Correct me if I'm wrong,

Ok

but you seemed to be offended if someone wishes you "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Certainly the vocal religious right screaming about Target stores or Wlamart or whoever putting up "Happy Holidays" signs are offended.

Is "Happy Holidays" not polite or cheerful enough?

I don't get offended by happy holidays. I get offended by people being hypocritcal and celebrating Christmas without recognizing what it stands for. Or companies/governments making it illegal or wrong to say Merry Christmas.

For all the reasons I've explained above. And as I've stressed, it's not patently "Let's step outside a minute, buddy" offensive. But it does carry an undertone of disrespect (likely unintentional disrespectg, as I've also stressed).

Duke, seriously. Merry Christmas! You personally will celebrate on Christmas Day. So if I personally wish you to have a good time with your family on Christmas Day, I'm perfectly justified and you'd be a hypocrite to be offended.

You're fighting back against a point I wasn't really trying to make, although I think Duke is making that point, so this response was perfectly valid for him.

My point was in response to your statement "The holiday is Christmas. End of discussion." I'm not offended when people wish me Merry Christmas because I assume they're talking about the secular holiday, which, like Thanksgiving, everyone can participate in. If someone wished me happy Chanukah I would get offended because Chanukah isn't ALSO the name of a secular holiday.

But saying something like "The holiday is christmas. End of discussion." is disrespectful of the fact that there are a myriad of other holidays celebrated around the end of the calendar year. Quite simply put, the holiday is not necessarily Christmas, to assume otherwise is arrogant.

But wishing someone Merry Christmas is secular as often as it is religious, which is why I often do it.

When I said "The holiday is Christmas. End of discussion." I am talking about the holiday season. It's Christmas time. What type of music do you hear in the secular stores? What kind of cards do people send to each other during December in great amounts? What type of decorations are all over every shopping center? When does Santa supposedly come down the chimney? What do children want for Christmas. The national, secular and religious holiday is Christmas.

Not because I say it is, but because that's the way it is. All the other holidays play second fiddle. I'm not putting down anyone else's anything. Just stating how it is. Just as Famine did with the historical description and you did with your breakdown of ways to observe Christmas.

I'm a little curious though - again a question of our religious friends. Why is Christmas unarguably the biggest celebration of the year (I have no familiarity with Thanksgiving, so I don't know how big it is relatively) when the most important celebration of the Christian calendar is Easter Sunday?

That's quite simple. Jesus couldn't have died on the cross if he wasn't first born

 

[Danoff]

When I said "The holiday is Christmas. End of discussion." I am talking about the holiday season. It's Christmas time. What type of music do you hear in the secular stores? What kind of cards do people send to each other during December in great amounts? What type of decorations are all over every shopping center? When does Santa supposedly come down the chimney? What do children want for Christmas. The national, secular and religious holiday is Christmas.

Not because I say it is, but because that's the way it is. All the other holidays play second fiddle. I'm not putting down anyone else's anything. Just stating how it is. Just as Famine did with the historical description and you did with your breakdown of ways to observe Christmas.

I agree with the above only because the secular celebration of christmas is coincident with the religious celebration. If the two were separated I'd be offended if someone told me merry christmas. Just as I'd be offended by someone telling me happy Chanukah.

I'm not christian, I don't celebrate Christ's birth. I'm also not jewish. For someone to assume I am, or that I celebrate their diety, is arrogant. I celebrate Santamas, a tradition that infringes upon no one's beliefs and which everyone is invited to participate in.

That's why Merry Santamas doesn't offend, and Merry Christmas does/can offend. The only problem is that Santamas is called Christmas.


Regardless of the size of secular Christmas, or even religious Christmas, it is not the only holdiay of the season. So it's still offensive to say Christmas is it. That would be like me saying "America is white and only white" simply because America is mostly white.

 

[Dave A]

Personally I don't really care what someone say's, though I live in south Manchester where there is a notable Muslim community too so during christmas theres quite a lot of people not celebrating it. To be fair a lot of the Muslims that I know, from work or that I see day to day in the street usually say "happy christmas" as a courtesy even though they don't celebrate it. Though I don't celebrate it really either. I just eat, loads. Generally whatever someone says be it "happy hollidays" or happy christmas" it's meant as a pleasent gesture, they arn't saying "now go and choke to death on a bone" or anything like that. I just acknowledge them and thank them, I don't think anyone really needs to do anything else regardless of what version someone has said to them.

 

[Famine]

That's quite simple. Jesus couldn't have died on the cross if he wasn't first born

Quite - but Easter is the more important celebration in Christianity, as resurrection is kind of a defining theme to the whole religion.

So despite Easter > Christmas in terms of importance, Christmas >> Easter in terms of "size". Why do you think this is?

 

[Dave A]

I actualy agree with Famine, Jesus actually asked his disciples to celebrate with him the night before he was killed and he asked them to keep doing it in remberence of him. He didn't ask them to celebrate his birth, while I'm not saying don't celebrate his birth, the fact that it's this that he asked for as opposed to his birth, puts it higher on the important scale imo.

Though my beliefs are my own, I've read the bible cover to cover a few times, I've looked into a lot myself and there are some things that I don't agree with that a lot of churches promote but I am a christian by all definition, I believe that Jesus came to earth, he was the son of god and he was raised to heaven after his death and is the saviour of the human race.

 

[Swift]

Quite - but Easter is the more important celebration in Christianity, as resurrection is kind of a defining theme to the whole religion.

So despite Easter > Christmas in terms of importance, Christmas >> Easter in terms of "size". Why do you think this is?

Actually, in terms of importance, Christmas is still it. Yes, Easter validates christianity. But Christmas and the events following it define christianity. Without Christ, there can be no christianity. Hence, Christmas is THE holiday for Christians.

 

[Famine]

Actually, in terms of importance, Christmas is still it. Yes, Easter validates christianity. But Christmas and the events following it define christianity. Without Christ, there can be no christianity. Hence, Christmas is THE holiday for Christians.

There is not a single Catholic or Anglican I have ever met who will agree with you.

 

[Dave A]

Actually, in terms of importance, Christmas is still it. Yes, Easter validates christianity. But Christmas and the events following it define christianity. Without Christ, there can be no christianity. Hence, Christmas is THE holiday for Christians.

As a Christian with a different view (for want of better words), the way I see it is that Jesus didn't ask for it, nor is it asked for anywhere in the bible. But the celebration of his death is. We don't know the specific date Jesus was born, my opinion of it is that if his birthday was meant to be some grand celebration it would have been celebrated both before the churches adopted it and it would have been mentioned in some way in the bible, likely with the date of his birth recorded with it. They recorded the date of his death and the number of days after it when he was raised. I have nothing against people celebrating chistmas, but that's my logic behind not putting it as high on the religous festivals list.

 

[Danoff]

*raises hand*

Ooooh Oooh I know, pick me! Pick me!

The reason Christmas is a bigger celebration than Easter is... because...... it's influenced and bolstered by secular celebrations. Take the Santa out of Christmas and you'd have about as many people celebrating it as Easter. Take the Christ out of Christmas and Santa holds his own.

 

[Keef]

I'd agree with Swift--that Christmas is the most imprtant for Christians--because it agrees with my atheist logic. Why the hell would you want to remember when somebody died every year? Isn't that sort of depressing? I'd think remembering the good times--the times when Jesus was born and was alive and was doing what he did--would make one a little happier. I eralize organized religions aren't historically the most logical organizations man has ever come up with, but maybe that's why I think what I think.

Anyway, Christmas (look, I capitalized because that's the way it is and not because I'm praising Jesus) to me is just a time to eat good food, recieve gifts because getting free stuff is awesome (I'm not good at the whole sentimental giving thing, but it works for some), spending time with family, bonding, and just generally being distracted from things I'd rather do, like drift through a snowy parking lot. It's also give me a reason to waste time hanging lights and fixing the tree and wrapping presents. I really wish I got paid for all that work.


EDIT: But why does everyone like Santa so much? What about that fake-as-hell easter bunny? Yeah, I'm implying Santa is real; I've seen him.

 

[Swift]

There is not a single Catholic or Anglican I have ever met who will agree with you.

Really? I find that to be troubling at best. How can his death be greater then his birth. You can die unless you're first born. It's a simple matter of logic. It has ZERO bearing on the actual faith itself. But in the terms you described earlier, Christmas certainly takes the cake.

 

[Scaff]

There is not a single Catholic or Anglican I have ever met who will agree with you.

Have to agree strongly with Famine here.

For my wife and her family (Catholic as I mentioned earlier) Easter is a much more significant event on the calender as far as 'days of obligation' and overall importance goes.

The main reason is that while Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth it was his Crucifixion and rising from the dead that defined his sacrifice for the faithful. Now while a lot of people would agree with Keef that it's a bit depressing, that's not the Catholic view. They see it as Christ dieing to save us and his rising from the dead and ascension into heaven as a far more important event and one of hope and salvation. They don't see it as depressing at all.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Famine]

Easter isn't about Jesus's death - that's Good Friday. It's about his re-birth, which is a fundamental tenet of Christianity compared to his role in Islam and Judaism.

Who's Jesus - oh, he's the guy who died for our sins and was reborn = Easter.

 

[Keef]

Yes, that makes sense now that Easter is about his rebirth and his sacrifice. That thought never even occured to me. So now what do we debate?


EDIT: VVV Okay, let's debate that whole virgin-birth thing...

 

[Omnis]

Quite - but Easter is the more important celebration in Christianity, as resurrection is kind of a defining theme to the whole religion.

So despite Easter > Christmas in terms of importance, Christmas >> Easter in terms of "size". Why do you think this is?

Probably because Christmas is in the dead of winter for most places, which gave people something to focus on while shut indoors from the cold outside. That, and the whole virgin-birth thing.

 

[Dave A]

It's what his death signified, then he was ressurected as a king and ascended to heaven. There's two ways to look at it, firstly there's the point that when you are born you are relatively nothing compared to when your 33, when your 33 you stand for something. You've set examples and you've altered lives ect. In Jesus case he did and stood for an awful lot by the time he was 33. The other side is that you can't die if you arn't born, but if God pu Jesus on earth, surely he could have put him here as a fully grown man if he wanted to.

 

[Famine]

Probably because Christmas is in the dead of winter for most places, which gave people something to focus on while shut indoors from the cold outside.

That's pretty much it - as I described earlier. The roots of a celebration at that time of year by far predate Christianity. We were hunter-gatherers with a predominantly agrarian society. In winter there was nothing to hunt and nothing to farm, so we had a good old knees-up to pass the time - and we wouldn't have the time at any other point in the year.

Then along came the druids and noticed that the Sun always stopped making things colder when it passed a point over there (the holiday being on or about the time of Earth's aphelion) and decided that some higher-beings had a hand in it.

Then the Romans turned up and Saturnalianised our asses.

Then the Romans became Christian, spreading throughout the one-third of the planet they owned, and their scholars conveniently worked out that Christ was born right about the time the biggest party of the year was.


Christmas is big because we've always partied then - except in England during the Commonwealth era. It isn't big because it's also a Christian festival - as the relative size of Easter as a festival would testify.

 

[Danoff]

(the holiday being on or about the time of Earth's aphelion)

You've got to hand it to him, he knows not to say apogee.

 

[Keef]

*goes and gets a dictionary*

Just so everyone knows, the apogee is the point in the orbit of a heavenly body, usually the moon or a man-made satellite, is at it's farthest distance from the earth.
The aphelion is the point in the orbit of a planet or or comet at which it is farthest from the sun.

And just for the fun of it, the saturnalia was the festival of Saturn, celebrated in December in ancient Rome as a time of unrestrained merrymaking.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

To answer the original question, I don't see anything wrong with atheists celebrating Christmas. In it's current form, it is pretty much a commercial, secular, holiday. St. Nicholas has nothing to do with Christianity specifically, and the current image of Santa at the North Pole riding reindeer has only been around since the 1820s. Rudolph was invented by a guy working for Montgomery Ward in 1939. Christmas' origins are mixed with pagan beleifs, the December date coinsided with ancient pagan winter festivals (Jesus would have been much more likely to have been born sometime during the Spring months). It's more about giving than of Jesus' birth anyway, hence why Santa Claus is the mascot and person most related to the holiday, and Jesus is "just the baby in the nativity scene". It is ridiculously commercialized, moreso than any religious holiday would. This exposure of everyone to the holdiay has helped it become relatively secular. Hell, I know a Jewish family that celebrates Christmas, just because it isn't overtly Christian, and it let's them participate in the season. It's a time of giving and being good to one anotheer, so if someone wants to partake in it, I don't care what religion (if any) they are. Let them be merry with the rest of us if they want.

 

[ledhed]

Hey, Jesus was still a human. I don't see why anybody shouldn't be allowed to celebrate a birthday.

But if you are celibrating his birthday ....then why on Dec. 25 th ?

 

[a6m5]

I hope I don't offend anybody with what I'm about to say here(and my apologies, if my belief offends you). I believe Christmas is a commercial B.S. Season of giving? Christmas spirit? How about you be a true "Christian" and do this 12 months out of the year?

Having said that, I love Christmas. I love the atmosphere, I love the music(oh, the music!). I just see the Christmas as another holiday, personally.

So, yes. I think everybody should (casually)celebrate Christmas.

 

[kennythebomb]

Actually, in terms of importance, Christmas is still it. Yes, Easter validates christianity. But Christmas and the events following it define christianity. Without Christ, there can be no christianity. Hence, Christmas is THE holiday for Christians.

I disagree.

If Jesus had been born, did all the teachings and miracles per what is described in the Bible, and then chickened out at the very last seconds of being on the cross and had angels come and revive him... then he would have gone down as a historical footnote (assuming nobody realized angels saved him!) Or, if he died and didn't come back, if he didn't conquer death; then there is no meaning to his words and it turns out he was a nutcase after all. Another historical footnote.

The reason Christians have a reason to celebrate anything is that Jesus rose from the dead, thus validating his claims as the son of God.

Really? I find that to be troubling at best. How can his death be greater then his birth. You can die unless you're first born. It's a simple matter of logic. It has ZERO bearing on the actual faith itself. But in the terms you described earlier, Christmas certainly takes the cake.

I find something troubling with that, where you appear to say that Jesus's death has zero bearing on the faith itself?? Surely you cannot be implying that.

 

[Kent]

Personally, I think this thread has gone way off track and the reason I say that is this...

There is a difference between celebrating during the month of december or even on the 25th of december and specifically celebrating Christmas.

Do you all understand that?
Celebrating on Christmas is different from celebrating Christmas.

If an Atheist celebrates on Christmas- cool, whatever, have fun!
If an Atheist celebrates Christmas- odd, they're celebrating the birth of the son of a god they do not believe exist (kinda contradictory to their beliefs huh?).

So there you have it... Celebrating Christmas and celebrating on Christmas= two different actions.

 

[Famine]

For an Atheist to celebrate Christmas is much like a Loyalist celebrating the Fourth of July.

Though there's nothing wrong with a Loyalist celebrating ON the 4th July.

Waaay ahead of you


But similarly, it doesn't make sense to complain that Christmas has become overcommercialised when the majority of people celebrating at Christmas are not celebrating the Christian festival of Christmas, but are celebrating the much earlier practice of having a knees-up, getting slashed and giving presents at what is now Christmastime.

 

[Swift]

I disagree.

If Jesus had been born, did all the teachings and miracles per what is described in the Bible, and then chickened out at the very last seconds of being on the cross and had angels come and revive him... then he would have gone down as a historical footnote (assuming nobody realized angels saved him!) Or, if he died and didn't come back, if he didn't conquer death; then there is no meaning to his words and it turns out he was a nutcase after all. Another historical footnote.

The reason Christians have a reason to celebrate anything is that Jesus rose from the dead, thus validating his claims as the son of God.

If Jesus wouldn't have gone to the cross, he wouldn't have been the messiah and wouldn't be in our Bible. As I said before, his death and ressurection VALIDATES our faith, but his life is what we base our faith on. For christians anyway.

I find something troubling with that, where you appear to say that Jesus's death has zero bearing on the faith itself?? Surely you cannot be implying that.

No no. I simply meant that in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter what the "bigger holiday" is. That's all.

Personally, I think this thread has gone way off track and the reason I say that is this...

There is a difference between celebrating during the month of december or even on the 25th of december and specifically celebrating Christmas.

Do you all understand that?
Celebrating on Christmas is different from celebrating Christmas.

If an Atheist celebrates on Christmas- cool, whatever, have fun!
If an Atheist celebrates Christmas- odd, they're celebrating the birth of the son of a god they do not believe exist (kinda contradictory to their beliefs huh?).

So there you have it... Celebrating Christmas and celebrating on Christmas= two different actions.

Hence it is hypocrytical for a non-Christian that celebrates on Christmas day to be offended by someone wishing them "Merry Christmas".

 

[kennythebomb]

If Jesus wouldn't have gone to the cross, he wouldn't have been the messiah and wouldn't be in our Bible. As I said before, his death and ressurection VALIDATES our faith, but his life is what we base our faith on. For christians anyway.

Alright - although it could be argued that celebrating his birth celebrates more his promise as the Messiah, and not the actions of his life which we idolize.

No no. I simply meant that in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter what the "bigger holiday" is. That's all.

I agree.

Hence it is hypocrytical for a non-Christian that celebrates on Christmas day to be offended by someone wishing them "Merry Christmas".

This is true, provided you know that they are actually celebrating the holiday. For a random stranger to say 'Merry Christmas' to Duke, if Duke has no plans of celebrating Christmas (whether or not he is an atheist... as some people are believers and yet don't celebrate the holiday) then it *is* rude from Duke's point of view. Now if Duke does plan to celebrate the holiday with his family, in the Santamas sense that Danoff has been pushing, then I agree with you that it would be wrong of him to take offense.

 

[Keef]

So how many times have we answered the title's question?

Atheists should celebrate Christmas. If they want to. If they dont want to then, eh, okay.

Does it really bother anyone in here if Athiests celebrate Christmas if they wan to? Does it intervene in your life or cause problems for you? Does it benefit you? Does it even matter? It doesn't do anything to me, but I'm and atheist.