Should we expect a visual downgrade ?

the one and only downgrade reason I see is damage, 16 car grid in 1080p with full damage could kill any hardware today
 
Dont think we should expect a downgrade, but I whould really want better AI, good damage (including being able to destroy a side barrier of the track) instead of better graphic.
The graphic we have now is good enough;)
 
Robin.
It is less good looking, see the thread link below..



Actually it was me,

I made the comparison thread about 4 years ago. The detail change is instantly noticeable. Heres the link with the comparison pics.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60271

As for GT5 I dont think there will be a downgrade because this time disk space is not an issue.

Robin.
Click to expand...

Wow - I never noticed that at the time...

OOC - did GT HD - get the textures sorted out?

C.
 
yeti
Wow - I never noticed that at the time...

OOC - did GT HD - get the textures sorted out?

C.
Click to expand...

I had feeling when i put gt4 in that it seemed worse, but didn't really bother to wonder why, it just seemed more grainy. I don't understand how developers can adjust the image quality one way or the other so much, i didn't know console games were as scalable as pc, this has me worrying know because in terms of pc most improvements in performance come at the cost of iq so now im wondering if pd will be able to add all the new features without the cost of reduced iq. Damn we still havn't seen tyre marks or many other particle effects that will create a huge performance hit, the e3 trailer was still very sanitized.
They've done it once, they will do it again if they have to. It's a shame if they do but hey, it's not their fault, im sure polyphony will make the best compromise. Im amazed at what they have pulled off already considering the gfx card in ps3 is worse than my 2 year old laptop's. PS4 will blow our minds if the gran turismo series continues to that hardware generation. DirectX 11 for pc is already promising near photorealistic visuals, and i mean literally, google it if you aint seen what it's about.
But the physics really do need to catch up to the likes of rfactor though, the f1 in rfactor feels like it's a whole generation or more ahead feel wise. Physics is where the hard work is and seems like it's where a lot of developers can't be *rsed, graphics is just a matter of hardware spec that will constantly improve as hardware improves. But hey they do it cos graphics sells, pretty pictures sell, good physics is only appreciated once you have bought the game and seen for yourself, it is more important in my oppinion but developers know that it's the eye candy that sells, just like with most other things in life.
 
I don't expect a downgrade. This is PD's first PS3 game, thus they're probably still finding plenty of new ways to optimize their stuff. With GT4P and GT4, they were just trying to see what more they could pull out of the PS2 that they didn't with GT3. It just happened to be that they couldn't pull off GT4P's crisp environment textures without performance hiccups, so they decided to downgrade them.

GT5P, as far as i've experienced, runs pretty well. There's no performance reasons to downgrade, unless they just aren't able to simulate damage and weather with GT5P's graphics. In my personal opinion though, they're probably still discovering plenty of ways to optimize their first full PS3 game, and thus I think they won't find need to downgrade the visuals. It's fully within the realm of possibility that the visuals will even be slightly enhanced over GT5P.
 
I'm expecting some visual upgrade, something in line with the improvement from GT:HD to GT5P. PD even introduced some minor (but noticeable) upgrade from Spec I to II of GT5P- not on all tracks but since I still have the Spec I version of GT5P, I can vouch for improvement at Suzuka. Another thing to consider is that GT5P was intended as a PSN downloadable game so it has be in the 1gb to 2gb range- the original GT5P was 1.93bg download. So textures are not as highly detailed as it can get had it been a BD game. And 2 extra years of development and the lesson learned from developing GT for the PSP is probably invaluable.
Here's some screenshot captured from GT:HD and GT5P. Anyone familiar with GT:HD know that it features a single track: Eiger Nordwand in both normal and reverse mode. The car selection is quite limited but there are few cars from GT5P except for the Toyota Rally car and you're only able to either a Time Trial or Drifting. Unlike GT5P, there's no cockpit view. And ght:HD was released almost 2 years prior to GT5P.

GT5P
3740352376_267904fe02_b.jpg


GT:HD
3740353610_6a6430502e_b.jpg


GT5P
3739559237_d9f8a47e4e_b.jpg


GT:HD
3739561459_4db3c22751_b.jpg


GT5P
3740353372_41da6ca62b_b.jpg


GT:HD
3739561205_ba06a8f6fa_b.jpg


From the screenshot, I determined that in the 1080p mode (I'm running it on my Sharp Aquos 1080p screen) there's no AA in GT:HD. IN GT5P, there's a 2x MSAA (medium scaled). It's also much darker in GT:HD. While you get the same tire selection as GT5P (N1-R3), the physics is much more simplified and while there's FFB if you happen to use a wheel (in my case a G25), again it's not as well implemented as GT5P and the FFB feels extremely weak.
 
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If we compare Eiger in GTHD vs GT5:P then overall Prologue version looks better but in GT HD grass in background is 3D and trees have got better textures.

I have GT HD, GT5:P and GT5:P demo (which looks like spec I - it has a lot less 3D grass on Suzuka and a lot more screen tearing and framerate issues).
 
But GT5P has grass directly alongside the track.

If you play it the difference is even bigger, the textures are way more pixelated in GTHD and the Celica also has some re-used GT4 textures for sponsor decals.
Overall GT5P is a pretty big upgrade graphics wise.
 
Emet_PL
If we compare Eiger in GTHD vs GT5:P then overall Prologue version looks better but in GT HD grass in background is 3D and trees have got better textures.

I have GT HD, GT5:P and GT5:P demo (which looks like spec I - it has a lot less 3D grass on Suzuka and a lot more screen tearing and framerate issues).
Click to expand...

I do agree (re: the grass texture). But I think it boils down to having to limit the size of GT5P to 1-2 gb. Like I've said , GT5P was initially a PSN DL game at 1.93 gb. GT:HD with only one track and a 1/4 of the cars is a .6gb download(1/3 of GT5P). So textures (and compression) isn't as limited. With the space available in BD (even more if they decide to use multiple layers), there's no such problem.
 
I've just played both (HD and Prologue) and I noticed 2 more diffreneces..
Trees are made form 2x less polygons than in GT HD and there is no shine effect on wall in tunnel.

Btw. I've noticed that wheel/rim model in Lancer in GT5:P is nice rounded (like in GT HD), not like in many other cars form Prologue (except from new cars from Spec III, which also have round rims).

Anyway.. can't wait for some big info about full GT5... It's getting more and more irritating :/
 
The fact some things are better in gt5p and some better in gthd i think proves that theres going to be some compromises made with gt5, just like with gt4. It's all oppinion when it comes to what people would rather have graphics and feature wise over the other, but theres no doubt in my mind some compromise will be made, but they wont be for us to decide, polyphony will do what they want and what creates the best compromise at the end of the day. In a way that's whats good about pc gaming, the compromises in part are left to the user, resolution, anti aliasing, shaders etc. I play gt5p in 1080p and agree the picture is sharper, however i would prefer to play at 720p with better effects and physics. It's a shame so much pressure has been put on the game to be 1080p 60fps, i think quality of graphics and physics is more important than resolution. I mean i watch TV at a much lower resolution yet it still looks more real than any game. 720p is clear enogh to see what needs to be seen. Plus 1080p only shows off the poor textures even more.

I don't want crystal clear sanatized graphics, i want atmosphere, I mean come on it's kind of ironic how the main things we enjoy about driving real cars are all the things GT do worse, like sound, feel, sensation of speed and just general atmosphere created by things like burnt rubber, smoke, exhaust fumes etc. I love gt, don't get me wrong, but the game really has no soul, so to speak, it's like it is more of a continuous developmental cycle that has scored well in some areas and not so much in others, the games out of balance imho.

I mean gt can be very rewarding but for some reason playing the game, it just seems so lifeless and sometimes depressing lol. Other games companys seem to move with the times, the games are balanced and all the areas are of good quality, as hardware improves so they improve all the areas but with gt it seems like some features are superb and some left in the dark.
Im not trying to start a flame war or anything, thats just my honest oppinion that i know won't go down lightly with a lot on here, but at the end of the day i aint no fanboy, im just a guy that happens to like racing games.
 
@dancardesigner: Fully agree. The thing that makes graphics worse is mainly bad AA and harsh shadows and a total lack of detail. For example, both japanese tracks are almost empty, no people in pits, no track comissares, no scratches, no rubber, no moving people, no birds, no flags, no traffic around, no air traffic, just so plain and sad. Resolution reduction to 720p and car detail reduction would be perfect to release some performance for those little things which are creating the atmosphere and making graphics more smooth. 1080p in this case just shows PS3 imperfections fully naked. Just see track showcase HD videos and you'll see what is missing in the game.
 
Well if everyone still haven't notice the downgrade, maybe it's because of the compressed file of GT5p for psn. if anyone here seen the 2007 TGS screen shots of GT5p you can tell that it's more good looking compare to the retail version. The wheel spin on GT5p retail for example, it looks weird when you start moving, it just randomly show that your car is moving fast and it change texture when you stop then accelerate again. Anyone here notice it? like R34, R35, Integra Type R rims look ugly compare to the real counterpart while doing 200 km/h.

@dancardesigner

Totally agree with you. I was driving a Yellow bird at Nurburgring last week it's all nice and all, but the physics oversteer is all plane dead. We all know the RUF Yellow Bird is a tail happy car, then the track itself it's lifeless with no spectators even the 24 hr race. I hope GT5 fix all this stuff, but I'm not sure if GT5 is in the same situation as GT4 when it's done, remember PS2 was a weak console and PD did their best to apply all those 700 cars and 50+ tracks. But this gen their in a ps3 with a more powerful architecture and more space to work on. I mean after playing KZ2 with 6 processor running under the ps3 manage to do all those intense explosion and those developers from guerilla are amature compare to polyphony's decade of experience. This gen is very important for pd to show what they can do to make a real driving simulator and stay to their top that developer like Turn 10 is trying to take.
 
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dancardesigner
The fact some things are better in gt5p and some better in gthd i think proves that theres going to be some compromises made with gt5, just like with gt4. It's all oppinion when it comes to what people would rather have graphics and feature wise over the other, but theres no doubt in my mind some compromise will be made, but they wont be for us to decide, polyphony will do what they want and what creates the best compromise at the end of the day. In a way that's whats good about pc gaming, the compromises in part are left to the user, resolution, anti aliasing, shaders etc. I play gt5p in 1080p and agree the picture is sharper, however i would prefer to play at 720p with better effects and physics. It's a shame so much pressure has been put on the game to be 1080p 60fps, i think quality of graphics and physics is more important than resolution. I mean i watch TV at a much lower resolution yet it still looks more real than any game. 720p is clear enogh to see what needs to be seen. Plus 1080p only shows off the poor textures even more.

I don't want crystal clear sanatized graphics, i want atmosphere, I mean come on it's kind of ironic how the main things we enjoy about driving real cars are all the things GT do worse, like sound, feel, sensation of speed and just general atmosphere created by things like burnt rubber, smoke, exhaust fumes etc. I love gt, don't get me wrong, but the game really has no soul, so to speak, it's like it is more of a continuous developmental cycle that has scored well in some areas and not so much in others, the games out of balance imho.

I mean gt can be very rewarding but for some reason playing the game, it just seems so lifeless and sometimes depressing lol. Other games companys seem to move with the times, the games are balanced and all the areas are of good quality, as hardware improves so they improve all the areas but with gt it seems like some features are superb and some left in the dark.
Im not trying to start a flame war or anything, thats just my honest oppinion that i know won't go down lightly with a lot on here, but at the end of the day i aint no fanboy, im just a guy that happens to like racing games.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying but here's my suggestion: if you can post a screenshot of a game, preferably a racing game, either captured using a capture card or taken right off the screen. I'd like to see a game that has some or all the suggestions you made (to improve GT) and look as decent as GT5P. Of course PC games are not excluded.
 
To be honest I don't know what to think. In one hand there were compromises made for GT4 (vs GT4:P) and some little for GT5:P (vs GT HD... but again, overall Prologue looks much better, even with so many cars on track).
In other hand look at Gran Turismo 2000 -> Gran Turismo 3 -> Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec.
GT3 was the firs full GT game for PS2, same as GT5 will be for PS3.
 
I think we'll have a visual upgrade or no difference of the number of cars on the track (GTHD had 1, GT5P had 16, and I'd expect 16 in GT5 as well) and the fact that it's the PS3, not the PS2, and therefore can handle more.

</two cents>
 
Mr Fox
If your expecting the game to look like it does in photomode screen shots then forget it, there is always a drop in quality between what you seen when actually playing the game and jazzed up marketing screen shots.

just compare promotional screens of GT5p to what it looks like in-game, one looks almost photo realistic the other dosnt.......nuff said
Click to expand...
Ummm, prior to your arrogant post, nobody even mentioned photo mode. The thread was/is about potential visual differences between prologue and the final release.......nuff said
 
There's a definite difference in the quality of Eiger in GT HD compared to Prologue. HD is clearer and more crisp. It doesn't have the dandelions and other added/changed things from Prologue but it definitely does look better graphics wise. The cars look pretty much the exact same too, and honestly they may even look better (but that may be because it's only one car on track). Don't know why they couldn't have given us cars like the Corolla rally car, R32 Skyline, and the Lancers in Prologue... They looked perfect already from the outside so all they needed to do was add the interior details.

Another thing I noticed while playing HD was the sound seemed better too. The engines/exhausts seemed a bit more alive, and also when you land from the jump near the beginning of the lap there is a great sound effect of your tires making contact back with the ground (and maybe the front of the car brushing the ground too). This is a minor thing but the experience from this in GTHD is much better than Prologue (where your car seems to land on its front and then slowly drop in the back without the sound effect). And honestly, the physics are much better in GTHD imo. It's not stiff at all like Prologue and it just feels better to me. There's also a greater sense of speed and overall the game seems more fun. I would love to play the Prologue tracks with HD physics (and its cars too).

After playing GTHD, Prologue really does feel like a downgrade already, so I don't think GT5 will be much different, unless the dynamic weather/damage poses a problem.
 
You're forgetting that the PS2 had already been maxed out, while PD is still learning and optimising performance on the PS3.

So no, I don't expect a downgrade at all, on the contrary.
 
It wouldn't surprise me if there's a slight downgrade. Things like night racing (assuming the lights actually illuminate the track), more cars on track, weather effects. It wouldn't surprise me if its beyond the capabilities of the PS3 to deal with all that at the same graphical quality as GT5P. The PS3 has a great CPU but its GPU and memory are pretty average.
 
ok seriously, I think we are going to see some visual downgrade:nervous:.fps drop, more aliasing, low environment details. With all those highly detailed cars in a race, plus damage, plus the weather I really dont know what to expect from the ps3 and from the devs (maybe turn10 made the right choice not to include more than 8 cars and no weather)
I hope I'm wrong
 
Just having a few laps around Eiger with both games, i would say overall GT5P has better overall visuals. GTHD has very dynamic lighting and blooming effects, which pack a punch, but aren't necessarily more realistic. GT5P keeps the lighting effects under control and looks more real because of it. PD, i believe, have made the changes to Eiger in GT5P in order to give it a more natural and real look, and i think these changes have been made more for the look of the game as opposed to running out of processing power of the PS3.

There are a few points here or there that GTHD does better than GT5P, most notably the wheels. I was racing the 599 in both games, and in GT5P, when you get up some speed, the wheels change to a lower quality 'high speed' version of the wheel, while GTHD doesn't alter the wheels at all, and looks nicer because of it.

I think the same goes for GT4 and GT4P, while Prologue did show some nicer textures in places, the overall look of GT4 was, IMO, better and more realistic. I remember first time popping the disc of GT4 in the PS2 and was blown away by the improvement in visuals over GT4Prologue, and honestly hadn't noticed the downgrade in textures between the games in a few areas, until this thread.
 
ralph89
@RedBaron
I was driving that car on your avatar in GT4 last week. :lol:
Click to expand...

Yes, I can't wait to do some drifts with Yellowbird on Nordschleife. With cockpit view and right hand operating that mighty long gear stick :) That was my beloved in GT4, with N2 tyres of course. I ended the game with 65% and rest was only Nordschleife, yes, mostly with Yellowbird. Action full of frightening oversteer.
 
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GTHD has somewhat tuned GT4 physics, with oversteer available with all types of tyre, not only with N grade tyres like GT4 had. But it was easier and I feel GT5:P physics need more fine tuning, although in Spec III it really stepped the right way - make the cars controllable as in real world, with clear border between grip and skid and it's now more up to you what you will do.

GTHD graphics wise features more grass all around and tree detail but that's just easy work spotting only one car instead of sixteen on the track. For me GTHD has mainly better type of pavement on Eiger, more suitable for such a place, somewhere cracked, narrower for more rally feel and just more natural. In GT5:P I feel near the bridge down there, that road is wide like a highway and it just makes no sense for me.
 

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