SimVibe (SimXperience)

[king0ni]

I think the amplifiers in that "Buttkicker simvibe package" are inadequate for their purpose.

Speaker Specs (Simvibe rating is because they lower volume output of the program by 40%):
50 Watt Minimum
150 Watt Maximum when used with SimVibe which produces a crisper, harder hitting signal than traditional audio
250 Watt Maximum when used with a traditional audio signal
Impediance - 4 Ohms

Amp Specs:
Measured power output: 2 x 75 watts RMS (into 4 ohms @ less than 0.01% THD)

So you only just get the buttkicker speakers going before the amplifier starts to clip. I am seriously starting to wonder about who thinks of these packages at Buttkicker. =/

The recommended amp by Keving at SimXperience also is not powerful enough.

Specs:
Number of Channels: 5
120 watts / channel (4 ohms; all channels driven)

It should be more than double that power output per channel.


I can see your point with Latte's recommendation though. Though he just talked about old receivers (which in the old days basically meant an amp with radio tuner built-in) in general.

Like I said guys, when you look for an amplifier to drive your speakers than make sure of two things.

- The amp is rated to be able to deliver a certain amount of power at the same impedance as stated by the specifications of your speaker. This to avoid blowing up your amp.
- Always make sure that your amp is capable at the very least of delivering 10% more Watt RMS power output per channel/speaker than stated in the specifcations of the speaker you want to drive. This to avoid clipping and blowing up your speaker.

Appreciate your thoughts Logiforce. As mentioned, I am still new to this whole high-end audio thing, so I have a bit to learn still.

I do wonder if the amps that Buttkicker spec'ed for the SimVibe package would run into issues at only 75W per channel, but I did speak with one of Buttkicker's engineers by phone who was quite helpful and seemed fairly knowledgeable. Perhaps I just misunderstood, but the engineer at Buttkicker sounded confident that I wouldn't need to go crazy above 110W per channel or anything and said that they did work directly with Simxperience to develop their BK package.

Kevin also mentioned regarding that Emotiva amp, that in their testing it was capable of delivering a good deal more power per channel than several other amps that advertise a 150W per channel spec, so I have to wonder if there would be a better amp out there for the money? I am not sure I will get up to the limits of this amp without driving my neighbors crazy.

Lastly, Buttkicker amps I've had have a clipping light on them, but for other amps or receivers, do you have any tips on how to setup transducers/simvibe to ensure that you won't experience clipping in game?

 

[LogiForce]

Appreciate your thoughts Logiforce. As mentioned, I am still new to this whole high-end audio thing, so I have a bit to learn still.

I do wonder if the amps that Buttkicker spec'ed for the SimVibe package would run into issues at only 75W per channel, but I did speak with one of Buttkicker's engineers by phone who was quite helpful and seemed fairly knowledgeable. Perhaps I just misunderstood, but the engineer at Buttkicker sounded confident that I wouldn't need to go crazy above 110W per channel or anything and said that they did work directly with Simxperience to develop their BK package.

Kevin also mentioned regarding that Emotiva amp, that in their testing it was capable of delivering a good deal more power per channel than several other amps that advertise a 150W per channel spec, so I have to wonder if there would be a better amp out there for the money? I am not sure I will get up to the limits of this amp without driving my neighbors crazy.

Lastly, Buttkicker amps I've had have a clipping light on them, but for other amps or receivers, do you have any tips on how to setup transducers/simvibe to ensure that you won't experience clipping in game?

First let me say this. Low-end audio, high-end audio, ipod audio, hifi home audio, car audio or concert audio... it's all the same in the basics.
The only big difference and issue is the room you have to fill with sound and how the materials in in that room reflect sound. The size of a headphone's earcups is one room for sound to travel and reflect in, a bathroom is another, a livingroom, a concert hall as well as something as Wembley Stadium. All have their own share of issues to cope with.
That is beyond the scope of any tactile system though, as you don't have to worry about how sound travels since they are made to be silent subwoofers after all.

About Buttkicker and SimXperience, I don't know what you want me to say here.
I think it would be best if you just didn't believe any of us on our word, but rather just go and find answers to your questions yourself. Double check everything we say and learn about how to properly setup any audio system yourself. No matter if it's picking a pair of earbuds/headphones for your iphone, buy a hifi system for in the livingroom or get a nice setup in your car.
Learning about this will gain you knowledge that you can use for the rest of your life basically.

I'd recommend using Wikipedia for the basic raw information, and use YouTube to get more information from people who work with audio. Such people might give you tips and tricks on how to prevent certain things from happening or how to setup your system.

I'd say start with the real basics, even if it sounds idiotic and you know it already. Just look it up to refresh your memory, for which a glance is enough.

So stuff like how all this relates to audio:
Watt = Volt x Ampere
Ohm
Resistance
Impedance
Alternating Current
Direct Current
Clipping
Excursion
Overexcursion
Speaker design
Watt and Ohm relation
Classes of Amplifiers

Stuff like that. Let me give you a few links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excursion_(audio)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance (for AC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistance_and_conductance (for DC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_current
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz


I think that's enough dry links. Up to you to find answers to "how to find the best amplifier for my speaker", though it will be somewhat in the videos below.


As far as amplifier recommendations go, I still would recommend an iNUKE DSP amps. They have a low power consumption, so you won't blow your fuses every time you use them at home. They offer a wide range of options to you and are controllable via USB.
The downside is that they are 2 channels only and that the fan is noisy (can be easily replaced as it's just a computer fan).
The iNUKE amplifiers are powerful amps that go as low as 2 Ohm. Such amps are usually very expensive and can quickly go into the 1000 euro/dollar range.
If you will look for other amplifiers yourself, please keep in mind that just as much as quality matters for normal audio it will also matter for tactile audio. The way the vibrations feel will definitely be different.


You asked me to give you tips on how to prevent clipping with a clipping LED? Here's some ways. Please keep in mind that the basics are the same with any amp and speaker combination, not just car subs.
With tactile speakers you should actually hear the speaker bottoming out, even though it is a silent sub. So you can play it by ear.

What is clipping... a basic understanding first!


How to set your gain by ear (to prevent clipping):


How to set your gain with an SMD DD-1:


How to set your gain with an oscilloscope:




@Everyone:

Here's a small easter egg for all of you. You know how some of you tend to mount your sub one way and the other the other way? Well make sure the vibrations are still in phase through the rig!!! Else you might get a dead silent rig.

A small demonstration of how bass is cancelled out (this is the basis of EVERY noise cancellation system).



So what I have on my rSeat Evo rig is that I mounted a mini LFE upside down on my pedal plate, and a Gamer2 in correct orientation on the standard mount.
Now if I wouldn't turn the phase around than I wouldn't feel much vibrations as one Buttkicker would cancel out the other Buttkicker.
You can turn around the phase by switching around the +/Red and -/Black leads or if your amplifier has that setting (like the iNUKE DSP amps) you can just flick a switch (in the menu on the iNUKE).
So to get it 'out of phase' or a 180 degree phase, that's the +/Red terminal on the amp to the -/Black terminal on the speaker, and the -/Black terminal on the amp to the +/Red terminal on the speaker.


Edit - why you have to use a more powerful amp than the speaker you hook up to it

As you guys may or may not know. An amplifier works on the principle of creating an alternating current.
The alternating current is used to alternate the direction of flow of electrons.
What that alternating means for our speaker is that the speaker will move outwards with a positive current, and it will move inwards with a negative current.
The cycle as to which this happens is what we call the frequency and is measured in Hertz, and stands for cycles per second.
So 1 Hz is a current flow of postive/outward movement of the speaker in 30 ms and a negative/inward flow of the speaker in 30 ms and coming to a stop again in the middle.
That means that 40 Hz is 40 times outward and inward or up and down of the speaker in 1 second. 20.000 Hz... right?

Now let's talk about resistance/impedance for a bit. We use impedance with AC (feel free to look up why). I am keeping it simple, but for those who want to look into it more properly. Lots of A level physics videos on youtube about electromagnetism.
Impedance is the ease at which those electrons pass through the wires, and the voice coil of our speaker.
Why do we want to have resistance? Well, you might think the easier the electrons pass, the better. But you're wrong. Because as the electrons start to encounter resistance, they start to vibrate and generate an electromagnetic field as well as heat.
The flow of the electrons through the wire and voice coil will determine the nature of the electromagnetic field, so if it because a north or south pole.
This field then reacts with the magnet on your speaker, which is a north pole magnet. Why? Because like poles repel and opposite poles attract. So when the current flows in the positive direction, the speaker moves outwards or up and away from the magnet.

Now the resistance divides the power needed to move the speaker. This because the more resistance, the stronger the electromagnetic field becomes. However, we don't want too much resistance either because then we end up with a too powerful magnetic field and again overexcursion of the speaker or bottoming out. However, as the electromagnetic field is powerful enough it will keep moving although it bottoms out and thus not damaging the speaker because of an overheating voice coil.
What can happen is that with a powerful enough field in the positive direction that the speaker's cone might rip out of the rubber ring, the voice coil moves out of its socket and get stuck on top of the magnet and cause other issues. But for that to happen you will have to do very well to overload it.

Now as I said the resistance divides the power. So let's take the Gamer2 specs as starter.
The Gamer2 needs 400 Watt of power at 2 Ohm resistance. Now if it had a higher impedance at 4 Ohm than you would only need 200 Watt of power, and 100 Watt at 8 Ohm, 50 Watt at 16 Ohm, 25 Watt at 32 Ohm, 12.5 Watt at 64 Ohm... etc.
Now with the Gamer2 you actually need 400 Watt. That is 400 Watt to move the speaker through its full excursion at any frequency it is designed to operate in, which is 5 to 200 Hz or 5 to 200 cycles per second.

So back to why a powerful amp. Well we know an amp works with AC, and it always uses a nice flowing sine wave. However, if the amplitude goes beyond 100% positive or 100% negative the tips of that sine wave become flat. That means that during that time the wave is flat it's sending out a constant current one way. Or in other words it has temporarily become DC. Due to that the speaker gets pulled one way or the other, the voice coil heats up and... poof!

If we look at it in another way. Let's grab the Gamer 2 kit again.
If the Gamer 2 speaker's full excursion is at 400 Watt, than we can safely say that's the maximum of the speaker. Or in other words it is 100% of the speaker's capacity.
Now Buttkicker BKA-130-C amp is 90 Watt at 2 Ohm. Those 90 Watt is 22.5% of the power needed for full excursion of the speaker.
But it gets worse. The Gamer 2 speaker is rated at 75 Watt minimum. That is 75 Watt to even get the electromagnetic field to become strong enough to move the speaker.
Now if we'd deduct those 75 Watt from the overall power need we get 325 effective Watt, but than we also need to remove 75 Watt from the 90 Watt amp to get 15 Watt of effective power from the amp.
This again boils down to a 21.7% of the total power we actually need to make full and proper use of the speaker.

Now I am sure you guys can all imaging that a subwoofer without much excursion doesn't generate much airflow and not much sound. The same is the case with a tactile speaker. If the speaker doesn't generate enough movement then you will end up with little vibrations and nothing more.
Going over the maximum of the amplifier would result in DC and overexcursion/bottoming out and horrible rumble and noises with as a result blown up equipment.

I hope this explains enough for now.

 

[LogiForce]

I edited the above, but I wanted to post these as well. Though they are related to the above, they are not completely. Though it might be handy to have a deeper understanding of electromagnetism.





Edit:

I found a couple of videos from Altec Lansing talking about Watt, Peak Power Watt Frequency Response and Sound Pressure Level.

 

[king0ni]

If we look at it in another way. Let's grab the Gamer 2 kit again.
If the Gamer 2 speaker's full excursion is at 400 Watt, than we can safely say that's the maximum of the speaker. Or in other words it is 100% of the speaker's capacity.
Now Buttkicker BKA-130-C amp is 90 Watt at 2 Ohm. Those 90 Watt is 22.5% of the power needed for full excursion of the speaker.
But it gets worse. The Gamer 2 speaker is rated at 75 Watt minimum. That is 75 Watt to even get the electromagnetic field to become strong enough to move the speaker.
Now if we'd deduct those 75 Watt from the overall power need we get 325 effective Watt, but than we also need to remove 75 Watt from the 90 Watt amp to get 15 Watt of effective power from the amp.
This again boils down to a 21.7% of the total power we actually need to make full and proper use of the speaker.

Now I am sure you guys can all imaging that a subwoofer without much excursion doesn't generate much airflow and not much sound. The same is the case with a tactile speaker. If the speaker doesn't generate enough movement then you will end up with little vibrations and nothing more.
Going over the maximum of the amplifier would result in DC and overexcursion/bottoming out and horrible rumble and noises with as a result blown up equipment.

I hope this explains enough for now.

Logiforce, appreciate you taking the time to put down this thoughtful explanation and the video links. You mentioned learning about stuff, which I did spend some time doing after my bad experience with receivers. In fact, I love learning and doing research on topics of interest. The problem is that it can take a very long time to really "learn" all this stuff, but I wonder how much is really necessary just to get simxperience up and running reliably. It's kind of like studying a full semester of Japanese just to go spend a weekend vacation in Japan, one has to question the practicality.

The explanation on listening for clipping was particularly useful, I only hope this will translate easily in the "real world" using transducers instead of speakers and without expensive test equipment as the videos show. Keep in mind, the primary goal is to create a gaming setup, not necessarily to become audio gurus like yourself.

While your quote above makes complete sense in theory - the BKA-130-C only having 21.7% "leeway," I can say that from my own experience with the Buttkicker Gamer 2 and it's BKA-130-C amp that the amp seems more than powerful enough for its primary intended purpose (PC gaming on an office chair without clipping.) Perhaps on a sim rig the story is different, but the amp was easily strong enough to shake the BK2 and deliver strong vibrations to my chair as well as anger my neighbors in the apartment below (did not have rubber dampeners below the office chair then.)

Given that real world application and the thought that Guitammer (BK) probably does not want to repeatedly replace their amps for being damaged attempting to drive the transducers properly, it would seem that practical application of these transducers differs a little from theory on speakers? I imagine there are other factors not taken into account with "normal" speaker theory as well...like the fact that game transducers are probably not active as often as speakers will generally be when playing music?

I think your notes regarding speakers (transducers) being out of phase and cancelling each other is quite interesting is as well. While I can again see how this applies to speakers (distance from each other, waves opposite in polarity cancelling), it seems that by the very design of the SimXperience chassis mode you would generally have different effects vibrating the rig at different times and so it seems unavoidable that the vibrations would on rare occasion get out of phase (cancel) for very brief intervals, but nothing more? I am having difficulty understanding how it would be possible to adjust for that seemingly unavoidable and rare situation.

This also got me wondering about any potential issues with mounting the mini-LFE's sideways on the back two and up/down in the fronts. Part of me feels this may be overthinking the whole topic, which I do have a tendency to do.

 

[LogiForce]

Logiforce, appreciate you taking the time to put down this thoughtful explanation and the video links. You mentioned learning about stuff, which I did spend some time doing after my bad experience with receivers. In fact, I love learning and doing research on topics of interest. The problem is that it can take a very long time to really "learn" all this stuff, but I wonder how much is really necessary just to get simxperience up and running reliably. It's kind of like studying a full semester of Japanese just to go spend a weekend vacation in Japan, one has to question the practicality.

The explanation on listening for clipping was particularly useful, I only hope this will translate easily in the "real world" using transducers instead of speakers and without expensive test equipment as the videos show. Keep in mind, the primary goal is to create a gaming setup, not necessarily to become audio gurus like yourself.

While your quote above makes complete sense in theory - the BKA-130-C only having 21.7% "leeway," I can say that from my own experience with the Buttkicker Gamer 2 and it's BKA-130-C amp that the amp seems more than powerful enough for its primary intended purpose (PC gaming on an office chair without clipping.) Perhaps on a sim rig the story is different, but the amp was easily strong enough to shake the BK2 and deliver strong vibrations to my chair as well as anger my neighbors in the apartment below (did not have rubber dampeners below the office chair then.)

Given that real world application and the thought that Guitammer (BK) probably does not want to repeatedly replace their amps for being damaged attempting to drive the transducers properly, it would seem that practical application of these transducers differs a little from theory on speakers? I imagine there are other factors not taken into account with "normal" speaker theory as well...like the fact that game transducers are probably not active as often as speakers will generally be when playing music?

I think your notes regarding speakers (transducers) being out of phase and cancelling each other is quite interesting is as well. While I can again see how this applies to speakers (distance from each other, waves opposite in polarity cancelling), it seems that by the very design of the SimXperience chassis mode you would generally have different effects vibrating the rig at different times and so it seems unavoidable that the vibrations would on rare occasion get out of phase (cancel) for very brief intervals, but nothing more? I am having difficulty understanding how it would be possible to adjust for that seemingly unavoidable and rare situation.

This also got me wondering about any potential issues with mounting the mini-LFE's sideways on the back two and up/down in the fronts. Part of me feels this may be overthinking the whole topic, which I do have a tendency to do.

First of all. I can tell you that I am not as much a guru as you think. There is still much for me to learn.
Also about Japanese. It might be better if you do learn Japanese for that weekend vacation. They are not the best in English and often what they have learned from what I heard online is that they only know standard phrases and patterns.
Not saying anything bad about the Japanese though. I would have a hard time learning Japanese as much as they do English. It's just that knowing some basic Japanese would make your travels through and stay in Japan that much more enjoyable.
Never been there though, but I love the country and its people even though I do not always agree with certain things. So yeah, like they say "the grass is always greener on the other side" but when you're at the other side you will find some surprises.

Back on topic though.
You can easily play it by ear with tactile. If you use Buttkickers you could even put your thumb and index or middle finger on the top and bottom holes of the transducer. If you feel the 'piston' with either finger tip than it is bottoming out.

About the Gamer 2 kit. Please watch my videos that I posted a bit earlier in this thread and hear the noise difference. I can promise you that the vibrations are not gone with the iNuke amp. In fact they are more precise and not muddy like with the bottoming out of the Gamer 2 amp.


The tactile transducers don't differ from speakers. Sure they miss the spider, the cone and the cap on top. Although actually, that cap is replaced by the soft rings on the top and bottom to prevent physical damage from the actual bottoming out of these transducers.
It is still an AC motor with a magnet and a voice coil that cause up and down movement of a piston. So like I said, the basics remain the same.

Why would a tactile transducer not be used for music? If you play Gran Turismo and wish to have tactile with that, you have to make due with so called 'audio tactile'. And if you happen to have in-game music turned on than the tactile transducer will also continuously work with this.
The same is for when you do not own Simvibe and have to make use of the game audio from your PC. Or maybe end up playi games that are not supported by Simvibe. Which would mean you need to go back to audio tactile and any in-game music would then be played back by the transducers as well.

In regards to being in and out of phase, as well as noise cancellation. You forget that sound is nothing more than vibrations traveling through the air. With tactile transducers we try to move these sound vibrations through the platform (office chair, rig, couch, movie theater seats) they are bolted on.
If you have a single platform (like I do) and have one transducer mounted normally and another upside down, the piston of one transducer would move in the opposite way of the other. Therefor (partially) canceling out the vibrations as they travel through the chair.
You are correct that with Simvibe chassis mode it is only something that happens rarely, if ever. However, why not avoid it when you can.
Also I wanted to get this across to those who don't use Simvibe or are forced to use audio tactile for certain games, and audio tactile is more prone to the cancellation effect depending on how much speakers are or are not individually driven (mono, stereo, quadrofonic (4.0), 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1).

Positioning of the speakers. A hard topic.
Technically the 4 'Chassis Mode' speakers would have to at the same caster and camber angle of the car's suspension. While this differs from car to car and setup to setup, it is simply impossible to do.
So for the 4 'Chassis Mode' speakers I would always go with horizontal mounting.
Than remains Simvibe Wheel, Simvibe Pedals, Simvibe Shifter and Simvibe Seat.

For the Wheel it is easy, you mount it below the plate your wheel is attached to. For this application 1 speaker is more than enough. This means however that the tactile speaker will probably be mounted upside down and would thus move in the opposite direction of the Chassis Mode speakers. In other words you have to turn the phase around 180 degrees (ie. put it out of phase).

The Pedals are the same and also here one speaker is enough. We often have an angled pedal plate to which it is easy to attach a transducer to below the pedals. This again means it is mounted upside down and should be put out of phase.

The Shifter is most likely again going to be an upside down mounted single transducer, which should be put out of phase.
The Seat is a rather special one. As we already have vibrations from Chassis Mode we should go with a single purpose effect designation here, that is impacts.
Personally I would mount two Gamer 2 transducers on my rSeat chair on the sides. This means that each unit will be at a 90 degree angle (or aideways as you say). This way I would feel the impacts from the sides, instead of having a top to bottom or bottom to top impact feel.
Since I wish to keep things a bit tidy, I want to run the Gamer 2 speaker cable on the inside of the chair. Which means that if we leave the phase untouched the buttkickers would either move away or toward each other, canceling each other out. So we put one or the other out of phase, fixing this issue.

Now if the the impact detection system in Simvibe would ever get really fancy, than I would do the following.
Mount two extra buttkickers front to back sideways on the seat. This to feel the impact of me bumping into the guy in front of me, or feel the shunt of the guy behind me bumping into me.
I would than let Chassis Mode only cover the top and bottom impacts for when I roll over and I am done.


I hope I explained a thing or two again. You just have to think logically about it all and maybe imagine the movements of all the speakers involved as well as where the vibration effects come from in the game. So the Chassis Mode vibrations (by default settings) come in from the virtual car's suspension movements.
And then I haven't even talked to you personally about my affection for using the delay in the iNuke amp yet to make the virtual car feel as big as it should be. This based on the virtual car's geometry and the tactile transducers firing immediately upon suspension movement, but those same transducers not being mounted in the same place if I had to put my rig in that virtual car.
In other words there is an offset between the virtual suspension and the mounting place of the transducers/speakers. And since they are closer to my drivers chair than the virtual suspension who makes the, fire immediately... they make the car my brain thinks it is driving feel very very small.
So instead of placing the speakers farther away and in that way 'delaying' the arrival of the vibration in my body, I use the delay in the amplifier to delay the firing of the speaker instead so that I can keep my compact rig. Else I'd need a rig the size of a real car.


Anyway... End of rant.

 

[fatkrakr]

To get some answers about the quality of amps used by Buttkicker I emailed them a link to this thread and this was their response.


Hi,
No offense meant to yourself or the members of the GT Planet community, but the posters simply do not know what they are talking about. We designed the BKA-130-C power amp specifically to run the ButtKicker Gamer2 transducer. It is a 2 Ohm stable amp and does a great job powering the Gamer2 transducers. Our engineers but a lot of thought into the match. The last thing we would do as a company is issue a sub optimal power amp to our end users.
Putting an amplifier into "clipping" is a function of sending too strong a signal from your audio source to the power amp. With the BKA-130-C a couple things happen here. First, the red "clipping" light illuminates to indicate that this is occurring. Second, running an amp constantly in clipping can put the Gamer2 transducer into thermal protection, this would happen when you overdrive the unit with any power amp. However, because ButtKicker transducers do not "blow" like speakers, the Gamer2 will simply engage it's thermal protection switch and resuming functioning when it cools off. It is not possible to damage the transducer by doing this. The only potential damage would be to the power amp and this would require a constant cycle of running in clipping and letting the Gamer2 go into thermal protection. We would hope most users would understand that this means they need a larger/ more ButtKicker transducers to get the shake they're looking for.

Please feel free to post my response to the thread.

I've copied in our head engineer, Marvin Clamme, who may be able to clarify further.
Regards,

Andrew Luden
Business Development / Marketing
The Guitammer Company
tel.614-898-9370 ex.103
fax.815-346-9532


EDIT: Removed links not sure if allowed.

 

[LogiForce]

To get some answers about the quality of amps used by Buttkicker I emailed them a link to this thread and this was their response.

Hi,
No offense meant to yourself or the members of the GT Planet community, but the posters simply do not know what they are talking about. We designed the BKA-130-C power amp specifically to run the ButtKicker Gamer2 transducer. It is a 2 Ohm stable amp and does a great job powering the Gamer2 transducers. Our engineers but a lot of thought into the match. The last thing we would do as a company is issue a sub optimal power amp to our end users.
Putting an amplifier into "clipping" is a function of sending too strong a signal from your audio source to the power amp. With the BKA-130-C a couple things happen here. First, the red "clipping" light illuminates to indicate that this is occurring. Second, running an amp constantly in clipping can put the Gamer2 transducer into thermal protection, this would happen when you overdrive the unit with any power amp. However, because ButtKicker transducers do not "blow" like speakers, the Gamer2 will simply engage it's thermal protection switch and resuming functioning when it cools off. It is not possible to damage the transducer by doing this. The only potential damage would be to the power amp and this would require a constant cycle of running in clipping and letting the Gamer2 go into thermal protection. We would hope most users would understand that this means they need a larger/ more ButtKicker transducers to get the shake they're looking for.

Please feel free to post my response to the thread.

I've copied in our head engineer, Marvin Clamme, who may be able to clarify further.
Regards,

Andrew Luden
Business Development / Marketing
The Guitammer Company
tel.614-898-9370 ex.103
fax.815-346-9532

EDIT: Removed links not sure if allowed.

First of all, I am not offended at all. Though I would love a more technical explanation as to where I am wrong exactly. To me this seems just as a company trying to defend itself, which is their right of course. But if I am wrong and Andrew does feel like he offends me than I would rather have him explain to me why I am wrong, instead of saying "we are right, you are wrong" which is not convincing.

I never knew there was thermal protection in these transducers. That's a huge plus. Thanks Guitammer for that one.

I find one thing strange though and that is him saying that then input signal from the source is too strong, hence the amp starts to clip. This while with the same output my Behringer iNuke amp does not clip and I can read out the input and output via the USB interface.
So yeah, that has me puzzled here.

Agreed that for a stronger shake you need a bigger transducer. I just said the iNuke was able to drive the transducer more easily, more accurately and up to its maximum potential before the transducer itself starts to clip due to having reached its maximum excursion.

I hope Marvin Clamme is willing to come to the forum to explain and enlighten us more on a technical level as I am still not convinced I am completely wrong. Sorry guys.

Thanks for sending them an e-mail, fatkrakr. It was interesting to read.

 

[lemansfanatic]

To get some answers about the quality of amps used by Buttkicker I emailed them a link to this thread and this was their response.

Hi,
No offense meant to yourself or the members of the GT Planet community, but the posters simply do not know what they are talking about. We designed the BKA-130-C power amp specifically to run the ButtKicker Gamer2 transducer. It is a 2 Ohm stable amp and does a great job powering the Gamer2 transducers. Our engineers but a lot of thought into the match. The last thing we would do as a company is issue a sub optimal power amp to our end users.
Putting an amplifier into "clipping" is a function of sending too strong a signal from your audio source to the power amp. With the BKA-130-C a couple things happen here. First, the red "clipping" light illuminates to indicate that this is occurring. Second, running an amp constantly in clipping can put the Gamer2 transducer into thermal protection, this would happen when you overdrive the unit with any power amp. However, because ButtKicker transducers do not "blow" like speakers, the Gamer2 will simply engage it's thermal protection switch and resuming functioning when it cools off. It is not possible to damage the transducer by doing this. The only potential damage would be to the power amp and this would require a constant cycle of running in clipping and letting the Gamer2 go into thermal protection. We would hope most users would understand that this means they need a larger/ more ButtKicker transducers to get the shake they're looking for.

Please feel free to post my response to the thread.

I've copied in our head engineer, Marvin Clamme, who may be able to clarify further.
Regards,

Andrew Luden
Business Development / Marketing
The Guitammer Company
tel.614-898-9370 ex.103
fax.815-346-9532

EDIT: Removed links not sure if allowed.

Welcome to gtplanet guitammer people, I still love my buttkicker gamer 2. Although I am not sure I follow completely as the response is directed towards audio signal overdrive clipping, not clipping from an underpowered amp not capable of driving a speaker... Two different types of clipping are involved and we are more interested in the consequences of increasd power from amp to speaker, not audio signal to amp.

edit: treed

 

[fatkrakr]

I also found the thermal protection very interesting and nice. I also hope to hear more from them on how this all works exactly, from an engineer point of view.

 

[LogiForce]

I am not sure I follow completely as the response is directed towards audio signal overdrive clipping, not clipping from an underpowered amp not capable of driving a speaker... Two different types of clipping are involved and we are more interested in the consequences of increasd power from amp to speaker, not audio signal to amp.

edit: treed

Actually I just noticed he is wrong about his own product, the BKA-130-C amp. The clipping led does not respond to changes in the audio source's volume per se. Cause only when you increase the amp's volume the clipping light will start to light up.
If the clipping LED would be a input source clipping indicator it would have lid up independent of the volume changes of the amp, even if the amp was put at 0 volume output.

 

[king0ni]

Actually I just noticed he is wrong about his own product, the BKA-130-C amp. The clipping led does not respond to changes in the audio source's volume per se. Cause only when you increase the amp's volume the clipping light will start to light up.
If the clipping LED would be a input source clipping indicator it would have lid up independent of the volume changes of the amp, even if the amp was put at 0 volume output.

It is actually a combination of the two factors (what he mentioned and what you are saying.) If you crank the amp up, but the input signal (e.g. your game's source volume) is low, it won't clip; however, it will clip more easily once the game outputs louder sound effects. If you turn the amp way down, then the amp should never clip no matter how loud the sound effects.

I am also partial to agree with Buttkicker's official response. As I posted previously, I think their engineers should be smart enough to properly spec an amp specifically built for their transducers so that it would not be damaged in the long run. It would also be a poor business decision not to design it that way.

 

[LogiForce]

It is actually a combination of the two factors (what he mentioned and what you are saying.) If you crank the amp up, but the input signal (e.g. your game's source volume) is low, it won't clip; however, it will clip more easily once the game outputs louder sound effects. If you turn the amp way down, then the amp should never clip no matter how loud the sound effects.

I am also partial to agree with Buttkicker's official response. As I posted previously, I think their engineers should be smart enough to properly spec an amp specifically built for their transducers so that it would not be damaged in the long run. It would also be a poor business decision not to design it that way.

For the first bit. I do hope you realize that you are talking about the output signal here and not the input signal?
Because if the input signal would clip, it would mean that I should register a clipping signal on the Behringer iNuke as well as a distorted audio output when simply playing music either via the Logitech Z-560 or my Yamaha RX-V450 receiver. Which is not the case.
So yes, I know for a fact that the input signal is not clipping. And again if the Clipping LED would actually be hooked up to the input source, than it should show you that the signal is clipping even when the output volume of the amplifier is zero. Unless I am horribly overlooking something that is.

About the second part. What Andrew Luden admitted and said was "However, because ButtKicker transducers do not "blow" like speakers, the Gamer2 will simply engage it's thermal protection switch and resuming functioning when it cools off", which boils down to that no matter what signal comes from any amp (1st or 3rd party) their transducers can never be blown up. However, when the transducer does engage its "thermal protection switch" it actually means that if it had not been there the transducer would have encountered overexcursion to such an extend and duration that it under normally circumstances would have blown up.

Now for those who have a Gamer 2 kit they all know that the amp does clip easily. And given the specs as well, if we treat that as a fact, we can say that the clipping will cause overexcursion. Which will cause the voice coil in the transducer to build up heat. Which depending on the severity and duration will end up engaging the "thermal protection switch" of the transducer.

Now if the amp can or can not drive the speaker. Yes it can, as its 90 Watt RMS exceeds the minimum 75 Watt RMS of the transducer.
Is it capable of getting the best out of the transducer? I think me and Andrew Luden will differ about that one. I personally of the opinion it does not even though it's one hell of an awesome transducer for gaming (in my opinion).

Personally I don't mind to have a chat with the engineer that is spoken about in the letter.

What the rest of you guys think is up to you, but for me there isn't enough leeway or "Dynamic Range" in the setup given by Guitammer.
Again the best way to learn is do your own research and not believe person A or person B for his or her word in any given circumstance.
Heck, I am not a religious guy but from what I hear from religious folk Jesus said "Seek and thou shalt find". I'd say wise words and it's helped me all the time, the truth to this entire discussion is out there on the web already after all.


Fun fact: Dynamic range or DNR is the ratio between the loudest sound that can be produced cleanly and the quietest sound that can be produced cleanly.
For comparison a CD has a DNR of 96 decibels. Which is based on the difference in Ludwig von Beethoven's 9th Symphony's quietest and loudest sound.

 

[king0ni]

For the first bit. I do hope you realize that you are talking about the output signal here and not the input signal?

Yes, I know. Perhaps you misunderstand what I wrote. What I posted is simply a first-hand account of what happens when you take a BK Gamer 2 (any amp really) and make changes on the amp's volume or make changes on the PC game's volume. It is not a matter of opinion, both of those things do clearly have separate influence on the occurrence of clipping (as the clipping light clearly shows.) Theory is great, but real world experience trumps it. It also does not require one to be an audio expert to observe this.

It does not mean the "input signal is clipping." An amp's job is to "amplify" the input signal, correct? Bare with me, but without trying to get technical, I'll just make up some arbitrary numbers to illustrate the idea that I was trying to convey in the previous post. Never mind if they correspond to watts, decibels, etc.

Let's say an input signal (volume coming out of the PC soundcard) ranges from 1-5x depending on the volume setting. Also keep in mind, the actual volume/strength of this input signal varies as you play the game. Quiet scenes may have a 0 or 1x value, where as action would ramp up to the max volume setting (i.e. 5x if you set it to max at 5x, 3x if you set it to 3x, etc.)

Then let's say that a particular amp clips at an output value of 19x and that the amp's "amplification" can add anywhere from 10-20x on to the strength of the original input signal.

If you turn the PC volume up to the max (5x) and the amp is at mid way "volume" (15x added), then we're at 20x total output value and past the clipping point during the loud action portions of when we are playing a game, listening to the loud part of a song, etc. When there are quiet sections, obviously we'd have no clipping at those times.

We could get below 19x either by: leaving the PC at max volume 5x and turning the amp down to 11x (very low), or we could leave the amp at mid way 15x and turn the game down to 3x...or some combination of adjusting both. This would ensure that we never see clipping no matter what happens in the game, song, etc.

 

[LogiForce]

Yes, I know. Perhaps you misunderstand what I wrote. What I posted is simply a first-hand account of what happens when you take a BK Gamer 2 (any amp really) and make changes on the amp's volume or make changes on the PC game's volume. It is not a matter of opinion, both of those things do clearly have separate influence on the occurrence of clipping (as the clipping light clearly shows.) Theory is great, but real world experience trumps it. It also does not require one to be an audio expert to observe this.

It does not mean the "input signal is clipping." An amp's job is to "amplify" the input signal, correct? Bare with me, but without trying to get technical, I'll just make up some arbitrary numbers to illustrate the idea that I was trying to convey in the previous post. Never mind if they correspond to watts, decibels, etc.

Let's say an input signal (volume coming out of the PC soundcard) ranges from 1-5x depending on the volume setting. Also keep in mind, the actual volume/strength of this input signal varies as you play the game. Quiet scenes may have a 0 or 1x value, where as action would ramp up to the max volume setting (i.e. 5x if you set it to max at 5x, 3x if you set it to 3x, etc.)

Then let's say that a particular amp clips at an output value of 19x and that the amp's "amplification" can add anywhere from 10-20x on to the strength of the original input signal.

If you turn the PC volume up to the max (5x) and the amp is at mid way "volume" (15x added), then we're at 20x total output value and past the clipping point during the loud action portions of when we are playing a game, listening to the loud part of a song, etc. When there are quiet sections, obviously we'd have no clipping at those times.

We could get below 19x either by: leaving the PC at max volume 5x and turning the amp down to 11x (very low), or we could leave the amp at mid way 15x and turn the game down to 3x...or some combination of adjusting both. This would ensure that we never see clipping no matter what happens in the game, song, etc.

All is well, but if the input volume isn't causing a clipping signal to go to the amp, it is the output/power-amp stage (where the volume control is) on the amp that is causing the clipping.
What you suggest is just shifting volume levels. Something that doesn't change the total output volume to the speakers.

In any case my experience with the Buttkicker Gamer 2 BKA-130-C amp and Behringer iNuke NU1000DSP amp are also first hand. I know that the iNuke is capable of getting more out of the Buttkicker transducers than that the BKA-130-C can, with leaving the volume on my PC at 100%.
I tried my best to make you guys see that there is a difference, at least from my point of view. As well as convey that from my experience you can not get much useful vibrations out of the Gamer 2 amp.

So yeah, what everyone here wishes to do regarding purchases is now up to them. No matter what, be sure to buy what you think will gives you the most satisfaction and pleasure because that is what we all want to achieve in the end.

 

[king0ni]

In any case my experience with the Buttkicker Gamer 2 BKA-130-C amp and Behringer iNuke NU1000DSP amp are also first hand. I know that the iNuke is capable of getting more out of the Buttkicker transducers than that the BKA-130-C can, with leaving the volume on my PC at 100%.
I tried my best to make you guys see that there is a difference, at least from my point of view. As well as convey that from my experience you can not get much useful vibrations out of the Gamer 2 amp.

I would not dispute that your iNuke is able to power the BK transducer more strongly than the BK-130-C without clipping - that is not something I've disagreed with, I can see how the iNuke would be the way to go between the two amps if you wanted the most powerful effects without worry of clipping. It all depends on the application too; I know I would never get even 50% of the potential of the iNuke if I had it attached to my BK transducer on the office chair. My chair would shake apart (and make an awful sound doing it) or my neighbor would be banging on the door. Rubber mats would probably fix at least part of that...then I'd just have to find a sturdier chair.

 

[LogiForce]

I would not dispute that your iNuke is able to power the BK transducer more strongly than the BK-130-C without clipping - that is not something I've disagreed with, I can see how the iNuke would be the way to go between the two amps if you wanted the most powerful effects without worry of clipping. It all depends on the application too; I know I would never get even 50% of the potential of the iNuke if I had it attached to my BK transducer on the office chair. My chair would shake apart (and make an awful sound doing it) or my neighbor would be banging on the door. Rubber mats would probably fix at least part of that...then I'd just have to find a sturdier chair.

You seem to have mistaken something. The bigger amp doesn't give more powerful effects. The same way as driving your subwoofer with more power won't give you more powerful vibrations/air movement from the subwoofer. You'd need a bigger subwoofer for that.
So on this point I fully agree with Andrew from Guitammer, if you want more powerful vibrations than you'll need a bigger transducer (and an amp to supply it with the right amount of juice to power it).

So yeah, how about the most accurate reproduction of the effects though? I think this is where the iNuke shines above the stock amp for the Gamer 2.

But yes, agreed ish. For just a single transducer setup (as on an office chair) the iNuke is overkill (especially the DSP version) as you'd leave half of the amp unused anyway. Not because the power and therefor accuracy is unused, but you leave features and a whole output channel unused.
Then again you don't need anything like a consumer grade av-receiver of x.1 surround amplifier either. Too much channels as well for a single transducer setup.

 

[lemansfanatic]

kinda hard to argue with Logi's video evidence...

 

[king0ni]

You seem to have mistaken something. The bigger amp doesn't give more powerful effects. The same way as driving your subwoofer with more power won't give you more powerful vibrations/air movement from the subwoofer. You'd need a bigger subwoofer for that.
So on this point I fully agree with Andrew from Guitammer, if you want more powerful vibrations than you'll need a bigger transducer (and an amp to supply it with the right amount of juice to power it).

So yeah, how about the most accurate reproduction of the effects though? I think this is where the iNuke shines above the stock amp for the Gamer 2.

But yes, agreed ish. For just a single transducer setup (as on an office chair) the iNuke is overkill (especially the DSP version) as you'd leave half of the amp unused anyway. Not because the power and therefor accuracy is unused, but you leave features and a whole output channel unused.
Then again you don't need anything like a consumer grade av-receiver of x.1 surround amplifier either. Too much channels as well for a single transducer setup.

This thread is getting exhausting...I think I will just let it rest after this post. I originally came here in hopes to help someone not make the same mistake I did buying an amp, but we're way past beating a dead horse now. It seems impossible to comment without you finding something "wrong" with what is written here.... What amazes me is that I am an OCD, anal perfectionist already who studies and overanalyzes everything, yet I cannot make a post here without some point I did not explain 250% perfectly in 360 degrees being brought into question. Your OCD must be more out of control than mine. Again, I am not misunderstanding; though I never bothered much with audio in the past, what I've learned so far is not rocket science. Please see the wording of my post you disagree with again, I said "power the BK transducer more strongly...without clipping."

If you turn on a BK2 you can run a little test, again, to illustrate what I meant. With the Buttkicker amp on, keep the volume at low/mid level on the amp so that it's never getting close to clipping and then play some music. Test how strong the effects feel.

Now turn up the amp volume a lot to where it's starting to clip when your source (input) plays "loud" portions of the song. How are the effects now? They're stronger during all parts of the song aren't they? It's not exactly usable though with the clipping up top is it?

If your amp is too weak to drive your speakers/headphones/transducers/squirrel without clipping, they are not seeing their full potential and will experience distortion at higher volumes, making the higher volume level unusable for real use. (I see it now: "I must disagree, squirrels cannot be hooked up to an amp.") Of course a good amp gives benefits other than just at max volume levels, but to the point, a better amp will make higher volume levels usable without clipping and distortion. Hence, "power the BK transducer more strongly...without clipping." I get it, you are the resident expert on these forums. You understand, I understand...please, let an OCD man rest in peace.

 

[LogiForce]

I agree, you can hook up a squirrel to an amp. Just put one lead on the left paw, the other on the right. Turn up the volume until tail lights up. If you see smoke from said tail or any of its exhaust holes, you've blown up your squirrel.

About your rhetoric questions. I agree.
Silly example: after all hitting a hammer against something makes more impact than hanging it up between springs and shaking it back and forth really quickly. lol

Anyway, I agree on letting it rest. Let's agree to disagree where applicable.

Also again, I am not an expert on this stuff. I learn by looking up things, trying things out and... making mistakes and at times have others show me I am horribly wrong. In the end I just like to learn and like to discuss to learn even more.
That said, I never have been diagnosed with OCD (heck, I had to look it up even). I just have a lot of free time to discuss and respond to. Nothing more than that.

In the end I hope others also have learned from our little discussion here and it aids them in making future decisions on their tactile purchases. Especially since that is the thing I love most about forum discussions, others learn from it and can add to it as it is fully public.

 

[lemansfanatic]

I learned a cool way to blow up squirrels

 

[lopsided]

Ok, I just read thru 28 of 56 pages so if this has been covered, my apologies for not finding it.
Here's the scenario... I currently have an old receiver collecting dust, it's an Onkyo TX-SR674 and I have one BKG-2.

I'm thinking that once I get my sound card (just ordered it) and test drive SimVibe I may be tempted to add addt'l transducers.

Q: Assuming I want to expand in the future am I better off ordering more BKGR2's (as I could order these one at a time), or should/could I use my Onkyo and purchase the mini LFE SE's?? I'm trying to ponder the future a little avoid wasting money. I don't want to start over AFTER I've purchased several items.

I have a 8020 rig made from 45 series, thick walled aluminum so I didn't want to go with a transducer that is so weak it would be worthless but I'm definitely not willing to pony up $200 per transducer (I believe I saw one that was in that range). I am also wondering about clipping on the BKGR2 amps. On occasion I will crank it too high and it will cut off, this leads me to wonder if the Onkyo & 4 LFE SE's are going to produce better results. Would that eliminate the risk of clipping? Does it make sense that I need to turn things up since I'm mounting the transducers on 8020?

I don't know enough to know if the Onkyo will work, I'm going with the assumption it will... if not, I'd probably add add'tl BKGR2's since I'd need an amp and the transducers.

Thanks for any help.
Bailey

 

[left888]

I really have to agree with Buttkicker on this one. If you look at the poster they replied too it boils down to one theory. If you don't know what you're talking about then dazzle them with BS. It's alright Logi, I'm sure someone on this forum has read one of your looooooong winded posts. Not me though. (lol)

Hi,
No offense meant to yourself or the members of the GT Planet community, but the posters simply do not know what they are talking about.

Ok, I just read thru 28 of 56 pages so if this has been covered, my apologies for not finding it.
Here's the scenario... I currently have an old receiver collecting dust, it's an Onkyo TX-SR674 and I have one BKG-2.

I'm thinking that once I get my sound card (just ordered it) and test drive SimVibe I may be tempted to add addt'l transducers.

Q: Assuming I want to expand in the future am I better off ordering more BKGR2's (as I could order these one at a time), or should/could I use my Onkyo and purchase the mini LFE SE's?? I'm trying to ponder the future a little avoid wasting money. I don't want to start over AFTER I've purchased several items.

I have a 8020 rig made from 45 series, thick walled aluminum so I didn't want to go with a transducer that is so weak it would be worthless but I'm definitely not willing to pony up $200 per transducer (I believe I saw one that was in that range). I am also wondering about clipping on the BKGR2 amps. On occasion I will crank it too high and it will cut off, this leads me to wonder if the Onkyo & 4 LFE SE's are going to produce better results. Would that eliminate the risk of clipping? Does it make sense that I need to turn things up since I'm mounting the transducers on 8020?

I don't know enough to know if the Onkyo will work, I'm going with the assumption it will... if not, I'd probably add add'tl BKGR2's since I'd need an amp and the transducers.

Thanks for any help.
Bailey

Bailey, I doubt very much that your Onkyo will work with Sim Vibe. My recommendation is get your 4 transducers and then purchase 2 of APA150 150W Power Amplifier from Dayton. You can order them from Parts Express. They are relatively cheap and they will rock your rig righteously. Sometimes I can't get my girlfriend out of my rig, she just parks the car on a curb and vibrates the hell out of my rig. Hmmm, somethings up there I think.

 

[lopsided]

It's totally confused me. On the back of the amp it says Speaker Impedance 6-16 ohms.
On the paperwork it has this...


See the 4 ohms mentioned there? So I didn't know if that meant it would work or not. If it won't that changes my plans. I was looking to try this out without investing a great deal. (Just add 4 transducers to my BK2 & Onkyo)

I'm not willing to spend $300 for 2 amps and then $400 for 4 transducers.
But I found these little Pyle 2 x 120 amps for $55 at Amazon and wondered if they'd work?
My next question is why would these (or something similar) be better than just adding add'l BK2's since they come with the transducer and the amp?

Bailey

 

[left888]

The buttkickers only work off of the low frequencies, Sim Vibe uses data from the sim racing game and translates that to your transducers for a more realistic ride. Your impedance will depend on what ohm your transducers are and how many you use in conjunction with your amp, Here's a handy guide to help explain it.

I tried 4 or 5 amplifiers similar to yours and they did not work. I have 6 Aura bass shakers and 2 BK2's which are lame in comparison to Sim Vibe and my Dayton amps and Aura bass shakers.

I think I read about someone at iRacing who purchased a couple of those Pyle's you linked too. Now don't quote me but I think they had success. If you are on a budget check out this amp from Dayton I've read of several folks having success with Sim Vibe. No matter what, you will have to spend money to get a great vibe.

I spent $500 to get this Emotiva amp for my Aura's, blew up one of the shakers and the amp on the first day. It was going to cost me a fortune to send it back. I think only one channel is toast, I am too depressed to look at it ATM. I have three of the Dayton APA150 150W Power Amplifier's and they really perform. The only upgrade I might get is SE Edition of Mini ButtKicker LFE. I'm happy with the Aura's right now, more importantley, my girlfriend is really happy with them.

 

[lopsided]

I tried 4 or 5 amplifiers similar to yours and they did not work. I have 6 Aura bass shakers and 2 BK2's which are lame in comparison to Sim Vibe and my Dayton amps and Aura bass shakers.

Ok, so after seeing 4 ohm/170watt in the manual I did some more investigation. On page 47 of the manual it indicates I can switch speaker impedance to 4 ohm. Being skeptical I called Crutchfield to confirm. I also inquired as to whether this switches ALL speakers to 4 ohm, once again, they confirmed it did.
So.... is there any other reason the amp would not work now that I know I can set the impedance to 4 ohms?

 

[Carson79]

DOUBLE POST

 

[Carson79]

You can use the amp, sure you can. The only thing is the draw on the amp if your running too many too hard. For what you have you should be fine, it's just a matter of knowing how many shakers to use safely.
I'd similar learning curve and I've found it best to run only 2-3 of that type of av receiver.
So more shakers= more amplification.....In my experience

 

[lopsided]

Hi Carson, Well if I can only run 2/3 and I want to use 4 Mini LSE's then you're saying I still have to have another amp?

If so, I'm back to square one. My space is so limited as it is and I was going to put this huge AVR in my HT center and run wires from there. Not ideal but it was collecting dust and I figured it would save me money.
If I need yet another amp I'd prefer to ditch it and simply have two small ones and forget this monster.

Problem is I have people suggesting high dollar amps, others telling me this will do the trick. I have no way of knowing who's right. I don't understand why the one's like the Pyle's I mention won't work or perform the task adequately.?? I need to grasp why a Pyle that's rated for 120 watts and 4 ohm, each with 2 channels... won't do the job of powering two LFE's. I'm not arguing, I'm trying to learn. I simply don't understand.

 

[HoiHman]

The whole thing with inpedeance and connecting the buttkickers to the amp, without blowing anything up has always been a kind of mistery for me.

I managed to get all my 7 buttkickers working, but i would like to add one extra mini LFE to my rig.

So this question is for you experts on this issuse:

I have 2 mini LFE's connected to one channel of my dayton A500 amp, is it in any way possible to connect a third mini LFE and still have the right impedeance ?

 

[left888]

Hi Carson, Well if I can only run 2/3 and I want to use 4 Mini LSE's then you're saying I still have to have another amp?

If so, I'm back to square one. My space is so limited as it is and I was going to put this huge AVR in my HT center and run wires from there. Not ideal but it was collecting dust and I figured it would save me money.
If I need yet another amp I'd prefer to ditch it and simply have two small ones and forget this monster.

Problem is I have people suggesting high dollar amps, others telling me this will do the trick. I have no way of knowing who's right. I don't understand why the one's like the Pyle's I mention won't work or perform the task adequately.?? I need to grasp why a Pyle that's rated for 120 watts and 4 ohm, each with 2 channels... won't do the job of powering two LFE's. I'm not arguing, I'm trying to learn. I simply don't understand.

Your amp will run the transducers, I don't think you will be satisfied with the results however. I have tried 3 Kenwood and 2 Pioneer amps with 4 Aura transducers. Sure they vibrated but I could not feel them when I sat in my rig. If you talk to Berney at Sim Vibe he will tell you the same thing that I am saying. Look at his web site, he recommends which amp to use and which transducers to use. He recommends these for a reason.

If you like, go to the iRacing's website and read about all the folks that have tried using home A/V stereo's and have failed. Just my opinion, maybe you will be happy with a little vibration that it will supply. One question I haven't asked you, are you planning on getting Sim Vibe? If not, then you will be best served with a couple Buttkicker gamer 2's.

The whole thing with inpedeance and connecting the buttkickers to the amp, without blowing anything up has always been a kind of mistery for me.

I managed to get all my 7 buttkickers working, but i would like to add one extra mini LFE to my rig.

So this question is for you experts on this issuse:

I have 2 mini LFE's connected to one channel of my dayton A500 amp, is it in any way possible to connect a third mini LFE and still have the right impedeance ?

You got 7 transducers to run off of one A500 amp?