Spanking children

[Swift]

Now, Im only 12. Although not happen more than once a month now, usually less.

Wow, all my spanking was done before I was older then 10. After that is was all restrictions and things like that. When children are older, the physical aspect is cake compared to loosing the phone of the PS2 for a while.

 

[Keef]

I'm 17 now, and back when I was really little, maybe 7 or 8, my dad used to spank me every now and then. I can't remember how often, but it wasn't very often. That ended and then when I was 12 and older, maybe to 14 or 15, he would just yell at me. I took a psychology class at school and we covered punishment and how it affects young kids' minds, and since then I have payed attention to what i do and I've noticed that I'm often startled when my dad addresses me. When he gets home he's like "Hey, how was school" and all that good stuff. His voice is pretty loud, but it startles me evry time. Like an adrenaline-type startle. I don't know if that's because my brain is scared of his voice or something, but it's not a big deal. It only happens when it's quiet, then he shatters the silence with his booming voice.
Lately he doesn't get as mad, at least at me.

Overall I think discipline is necessary, obvioulsy, but you shouldn't go wacking kids in the head. You need to tell them immediatley after they screw up that what thay did was wrong. It doesn't work if you don't get to it until a week later. That's what my grandpa did with my dad. He'd wait until a week or more later, then BAM!, he'd wack him good. I'm against that. I've never been in a situation where I've had to care for a kid, so I don't really know how to go about it, but I wouldn't be violent or hit them hard or scare the crap out of them. I'd just tell 'em how it is.

 

[Rogue Ssv]

Wow, all my spanking was done before I was older then 10. After that is was all restrictions and things like that. When children are older, the physical aspect is cake compared to loosing the phone of the PS2 for a while.

Well its not spanking its like hitting me in the head or twisting my ear as i sayd. Spanking is babyish. And yes it is easy, doesnt help at all anymore not that it did much before.
And i dont have any PS2 to lose or friends to phone. [sarcasm] Stupid people with lives outside of the internet. [/sarcasm]

 

[F1GTR]

Wow, all my spanking was done before I was older then 10. After that is was all restrictions and things like that. When children are older, the physical aspect is cake compared to loosing the phone of the PS2 for a while.

Same here.

I don't think smacking is wrong, you end up learning when you've crossed the line. When I was younger I did loads of stupid things and I got smacked. As I got older all my parents had to do was tell me off and I knew not to do anything else since the problem would escalate into smacking. Unfourtunately my sister still doesn't know when she's crossed the line and she's only a year younger than me.

As long as it doesn't become child abuse, I believe that smacking can be a useful tool in a child's judgement of right and wrong and will show that the child has really hit the limit with his/her parents.

 

[Danoff]

I'll just re-iterate here what I wrote in another thread. I see spanking as a way for parents command respect from young children. Children need to understand that their parents have power over them and must be obeyed. When you're young, the only way to learn that is in the most concrete way - physical pain. When you're older, abstract penalties work much better. Spanking doesn't work for teaching lessons, which must be done independently.

If a child misbehaves, explain why that is unacceptable behavior and instruct them to stop.
If a child misbehaves again they've shown disprespect for your previous instructions.

Spanking addresses the disrespect, but it doesn't teach them why the behavior was wrong in the first place.

 

[Pupik]

Well, right now she has no door on her bedroom until she furnishes me with a 250-word essay on why she deserves a door and wants it back.

That is going in my playbook when my kids are older. See, that's far better than spanking them. My parents usually just hit me with whatever was lying around; once I learned to catch my parent's fist and/or spout expletives in return, I was never punished again. But I was usaully pretty good. If I really did something wrong, they'd give me that disappointed look. I'd usually get severe punishment for stupid little things like leaving shoes lying around or forgetting to turn in an assignment.

I've sworn to my wife that I won't dole out punishment so randomly and arbitrarily, it really didn't do much in the way of behavior modification for any of us kids. However, I'm not going to let my kids hit me or run rampant or talk back to me when they're little; I want to strangle these discipline-reluctant and dim-witted parents that let their kids run about or dealership where they can get into trouble and worse yet, get hit by the multitude of cars moving around. I've seen it when I worked in supermarkets, they let them run amok, and then the parents transfer their attitudes by saying something like "That man is going to get very angry at you for going that!"

Those parents deserve a slug in the face every time they say that. What kind of behavior pattern are they setting? I'm not going to discipline you, he's going to do it for me! Of course, the same parent will tell me: "How dare you tell me how to raise my child!"

I think I can't wait to have kids, I want to see if these parents are certifiable stupid, or is it going to be the same damn rut for me, when my kids are total miscreants. i can't wait to tell a parent how to raise their kid, so I can shame them publicly for once.

 

[wfooshee]

It's not just parents that need to use physical discipline, but let's get it back into the schools. I was installing a teacher's computer in her classroom a few years ago at a middle school (what we used to call junior high - does it change by having a different name? Were we confused before?) Anyway, math class full of 7th-graders, I guess that makes them 13. She was going over the previous day's homework, had the attention of maybe 4 of the 32 kids present. Several conversations going on all around the room, no effort by her to control them. Some would say that's the problem, but what can she do? She is completely powerless to enforce any discipline, unless they become violent and she can call for security.

Back to the class. She's done about 6 problems, and a kid in the back stands up, says loudly, "You can stop now, that's all I did," walks to the door as if to leave, then laughs and returns to his seat. No reaction from the teacher at all, not even a glance in his direction. Obviously the entire class is affected by this, and I'm sure they're being adequately prepared for higher learning, and real life after that.

Is there anyone reading this who believes that classroom would be in that condition if the teacher had a paddle available? And if you think that classroom was bad, have you ever been near a school bus?!??!??!!?!

When this behavior is reported to parents, the nearly universal answer, is, "Not my Freddie! I just can't believe he would ever behave in such a manner!!" Perhaps the parents need a couple of licks from the board, as well.

People who are anti-spanking need to get over the mistaken belief that spanking is child abuse, or that it teaches that hitting is the way to get what you want. I was spanked as a child, and the idea that I could hit someone to change their behavior never even once crossed my mind. I was never slapped or hit with a fist or backhand, and it was always clear what the reason for the spanking was, even if I didn't quite agree to that at the time. It was a rigid, honest process, not a temperamental outburst from my parents. I also never got the speech, "This is going to hurt me more than it does you." Nor have I used that. It's lame. Spanking shows the child their boundary. Children will explore whatever behaviors they can get away with, and if it's inappropriate, begging them to change their behavior is the least effective process I can think of, yet it's the one I most often see from people around me.

Spanking can be symbolic, as well, it doesn't have to hurt. The embarrassment a child feels when popped in front of the grocery cashier when he keeps screaming for candy is much less amusing, and will be remembered much longer, than mommy's whiney voice begging him to stop.

I could wish that society could accept community involvement in child-rearing. I'm showing my age, but when I was a kid, my parents counted on whoever I was with at the time to administer whatever discipline I needed while in their care, whether it was neighbors, aunts and uncles, Sunday school class, whatever. They did not expect to get a report of behavior that they then had to handle afterwards, they expected to get a report of behavior and the punishment administered.

 

[Rogue Ssv]

People who are anti-spanking need to get over the mistaken belief that spanking is child abuse, or that it teaches that hitting is the way to get what you want. I was spanked as a child, and the idea that I could hit someone to change their behavior never even once crossed my mind. I was never slapped or hit with a fist or backhand, and it was always clear what the reason for the spanking was, even if I didn't quite agree to that at the time. It was a rigid, honest process, not a temperamental outburst from my parents. I also never got the speech, "This is going to hurt me more than it does you." Nor have I used that. It's lame. Spanking shows the child their boundary. Children will explore whatever behaviors they can get away with, and if it's inappropriate, begging them to change their behavior is the least effective process I can think of, yet it's the one I most often see from people around me.

Spanking can be symbolic, as well, it doesn't have to hurt. The embarrassment a child feels when popped in front of the grocery cashier when he keeps screaming for candy is something he will remember much longer than mommy's whiney voice begging him to stop.

I could wish that society could accept community involvement in child-rearing. I'm showing my age, but when I was a kid, my parents counted on whoever I was with at the time to administer whatever discipline I needed while in their care, whether it was neighbors, aunts and uncles, Sunday school class, whatever. They did not expect to get a report of behavior that they then had to handle afterwards, they expected to get a report of behavior and the punishment administered.

School busses are all 'I can whup your @$$!''
''Not if I whup you first!''
''**** you!'
'Shut up mother****er you dont know who youre ****ing with'!
Please excuse cursing, just trying to show you reality.
Thats why I dont take schoolbusses.
I think that once in a while a joke like that is OK, but they should stay in control, and not take complete advantage of the teacher. In my class we do things like that once in a while, to the amusement of the whole class and the teacher. Except our jokes are funnier and less disrespectful, and we recover quickly and pay attention. However, my Latin class is horrible. Stuff like that happens all the time, there is NO respect for the teacher, and when one of the 3 or 4 kids who care and are brave enough to say anything yells loudly ''shut up!! Mrs Mazzola deserves respect' (usually me, Mung, Leo, or Blair) and it works, everyone starts talking again saying ''thanks' or'good job' or 'wow it worked'. It usually takes at least 5 tries for our teacher to get us quiet, and usually happen 3 times a class. Terrible.

 

[Gen.]

Wow. What kind of school did you go to

I'd rather punish my kid psychologically than physically. Why hurt them when you can just take away their most precious things for periods of time?

 

[Rogue Ssv]

Hunter High School I still go.

 

[Small_Fryz]

i think spanking needs to be last resort, A threat if you wish, but a threat you will follow through with, you probably only actually need to do it once or twice, but if the kids know that if they cross the line they will get a smack, this can stop the stupid tantrum behaviour, but MOST cases should be dealt with taking away privelages, and definetly rewarding good behaviour more than punishing bad. Need to reward good as much as punish bad.

I never disobay my dad because his 6'0 and 220lbs and im only 5'6, 135lbs and even though ive never gotten spanked since i was a little kid (even then it was rare) i know if i cross the line my dad wouldnt hesitate to pick me up and "drag" me to my room or hit me or something. We are best of mates and his never had to do this for about 10 years, but i know he would still do it if i crossed the line. Maybe im just a good kid and respect and reason with my parents and thus hardly ever get into trouble.

 

[Gabkicks]

all the commedians say it but its true.... " you need to beat your kids!!!"

i'm bigger than my dad but i still show him some respect...

i have an emo friend of mine who actually punched his dad in the face when he was 14.... knocked his own dad out.

whats with emo kids beating up their parents?

 

[Max_DC]

As last year I still think that physical force is always wrong and should never be used for "educating" children. Imo that is just a loss of control and a method for people who are not able/willing to find a better solution.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

As last year I still think that physical force is always wrong and should never be used for "educating" children. Imo that is just a loss of control and a method for people who are not able/willing to find a better solution.

So far, people I see that do the "alternative" methods, have bastard children. period. maybe I'll soon see different results, but I doubt it.


As for associating what they did at school, with the spanking they get now? when I was 5, and I got spanked for something I did earlier, my parents told me what it was for, and I understood. does that make me an extremely intelligent child? it's pretty simple, 5 yr olds arent retarded ya know.
I never got spanked in stores, either, it waited till I got home. at the age of 6, I understood that I would not get spanked at the store, because other people might throw a fit, and there were phsychotic child service people out there. all these concepts, I could get at 6 years old.
Now, who really thinks if you spank a 5-10yr old after school, because they got in a fight at school, they won't know why? TELL THEM.
there, dillema solved.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Its not like you bruise them, or break bones or put them in hospital...

 

[Casio]

Its not like you bruise them, or break bones or put them in hospital...

It's not like that never happens either...

I have to agree with Max. I'm not for it. It's destroyed my family really.

About er....4 years ago, my Mothers boyfriend was getting into me verbally, so I called him a few names. Next, he hits me. I havn't spoken a word to him since that date.

I think he always believes that it was the only way to discipline a child. Up until a couple of years ago his son (Now 19) was **** scared to say or protest anything, in fear of being hit.

While this may not be directly related. I do a lot of work with Dog Trainers at my work. Our policy is no physical contact, not only because he won't want to be sued when someone kills them, but it seems to work better. One of the trainers, does hit her dogs, and they are genuinely scared of her.

I don't know. I guess I don't think it's right. I'm only 17, so I don't have experience from the big world, or my from own children. Maybe in future I'll change my mind. But at the moment, Spanking = 👎

 

[wfooshee]

Let's be careful with equating hitting with spanking. They are NOT the same thing. "Hitting" is an unreasoned reaction, like a fit of temper. Spanking is a disciplinary process, with the purpose clearly understood, and most importantly, not done in anger.

As for "mother's boyfriend," I am a stepfather myself, and I understand the difficulty. I married into teenagers, 15 and 13, so they were already too big to spank. My stepson, who is older, had a temper, would hit me and hit his mother. His natural father was a beater, so for fear of that developing in him, violence was avoided at all costs. I would have to restrain him sometimes, and basically take him out of the house where he could cool off. He was fussy about it, but honestly about a hundred pounds out of his weight class. Once he discovered that I would take whatever he threw at me without reaction, but would not stand for anything against his mother, something clicked in him, and he settled down. It also helped that I remembered and kept promises made before the marriage.

The daughter was a different story. She wasn't violent or temperamental, she was just completely dishonest. She would say whatever had to be said to get through a particular situation, even if she knew we knew better. She was also materialistic to the point of excess. She wanted to have the same life she saw her friends in school have, yet her friends' families were quite a bit better off than we are. She hated me because I wouldn't replace the car she wrecked ("I can't believe you won't give me a car. I have to have a car!" "We did give you a car. Where is it? Oh, yeah, smashed to a billion pieces!"), or I wouldn't call my cop friends to fix her tickets. Teaching her responsibilty for herself has been the biggest challenge, and though she's in her 20's now, I'm not sure we've succeeded. She just spent a year in vocational school, is up for state boards to get a license, and now has decided this program isn't what she wants to do. All I can say is that she doesn't hate me any more, but she's never called me "Dad" like her brother does.

The promises mentioned earlier included never lying, which they know I've never done. Also, they wanted a dog while they were in their tiny apartment before we got married. The apartment was too small, nobody home all day, a dog was out of the question. I promised a dog when we married and got a house, and less than 60 days after we moved in, we had the dog. That impressed the son more than I can express.

 

[FoolKiller]

About er....4 years ago, my Mothers boyfriend was getting into me verbally, so I called him a few names. Next, he hits me. I havn't spoken a word to him since that date.

An anger hit is not punishment but revenge. The difference between this and a spanking that just stings and does not risk permanent damage is huge.

Trust me I have my own stories about an overboard father when it came to "punishment." Even when I was little I could tell when it would be bad and when it would be just a spanking. After my parenst divorced iut took a few years for my brother and I both to mend the gap between our father and us, but we did. He's even gone as far as to apologize for hitting us in anger.

I've learned from witnessing my father's temper and I have told my wife that if I ever get angry and explode the way he did that she should pack up the kids (when we have them) and leave. I would rather lose my family than treat them that way. At the same time she understands that a spanking can deliver a learning message.


I challeneg anyone against spanking to show me a person who has been spanked, not beaten, that you can prove was harmed for life by that spanking. Michael Jackson and Roseanna Barr claiming they are the way they are because they were spanked does not count. That is pure PR BS to save their careers.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

^^^ absolutly. a common problem is people taking spanking the same as hitting. Like I said earlier, "beat their ass, but not with your fists"
Now, in the situation as a step-parent, it get much trickier, and you really can't spank them then, as they will never respond to you like you're their actual parent.
Wfooshee: don't let the daughter get you down, as long as you do the best you can, that's all you can do. Girls will always favor a father over mother, assuming equal parenting, as guys will prefer their mother, in general. (no not always). So a girl reacting to a step-dad is like a guy reacting to a step-mom, and the result is generally complete rebellion.
This is why I think premiscuous sex will be the downfall of society, and already is somewhat, but that's another story.

More than anything, kids need 2 blood-parents, that arent always working, or too busy. the happiest, and generally best people I know come from whole family's. even better if one parent doesnt work (usually mom), or at least only works during school hours. (i.e., drops them off and picks them up)

Kids are not a chore, they are not something you have to pay for, they are something you made, and knew you might be making. they cost money, but that doesnt mean you can ship them off to somebody else every day, and expect them to respect and obey you as though you are a real parent.

Had to add this:
Having kids at old ages is again, a horrible idea. if anybody in plans to or has, no offense, but it's plain bad. my dad was 27 when I was born, and I personally think that was to old, but then again, I wasnt supposed to happen. (ive never been told that, I overheard it once) but I've been told enough times that I'm appreciated and combining that with my personal outlook on people, sex, & children, it doesnt bother one day out of the year.
Anyway, you need to be young enough to interact with your kids, and, a 50 year old cannot interact with a 13 year-old the way a 40 year old can, or better, a 35 year old. But people are so focused on college and money, this will not stop. People want to wait until kids are convenient, and that is a major problem. If they would be inconvenient, don't have them. they are not a toy, and not for you're amusment.
Oh, and a sibling or 2 is quite good as well

 

[Max_DC]

So far, people I see that do the "alternative" methods, have bastard children. period. maybe I'll soon see different results, but I doubt it.

Ok, so you call me a bastard ?

As for associating what they did at school, with the spanking they get now? when I was 5, and I got spanked for something I did earlier, my parents told me what it was for, and I understood. does that make me an extremely intelligent child? it's pretty simple, 5 yr olds arent retarded ya know.
I never got spanked in stores, either, it waited till I got home. at the age of 6, I understood that I would not get spanked at the store, because other people might throw a fit, and there were phsychotic child service people out there. all these concepts, I could get at 6 years old.
Now, who really thinks if you spank a 5-10yr old after school, because they got in a fight at school, they won't know why? TELL THEM.
there, dillema solved.

I don't think that this is right. It might look like an easy solution, but from a psychological point of view it is wrong. It causes psychological damage and even it might only be a small piece of damage every time, it sums up. And it changes you. Maybe you won't agree, which would be logical, since it is part of you and you justify it because of that very reason. One might say that you are not out of the system and therefor cannot be objective.

I have to add though, that I understand that not every child is the same and that I can understand parents who lose control at a certain point. But I think that that is a fault, it's human, but still not an appropriate method.

There is always a better solution and it works simple if parents don't make faults in the beginning. I can absolutly understand that you won't have any success with a discussion when your child is a product of 15 years of wrong education and maybe bad influence from his/her friends.

Apart from that parents just have to accept that teenagers are on a process to seperate from them and that their disrespectful behavior is 90% hormones.
By trying to fight against this disrespect it gets even worse.

I don't think that there is an easy solution, the whole education package has to be right, then you don't need to spank anybody. That's how I see it, also from a medical/psychological point of view.

Spanking is the easy way for a complex problem. And as always in life, nothing is for free. Somebody has to pay for the easy way, it is the longterm psychological state of mind of the children.
And maybe even the parents, who get everything back twice and triple as soon as the kid is a teenager. Because there can only be a rebellion against somebody who is against you.
I am no fan of "hippie" education without rules, that doesn't work either.

 

[Swift]

I don't think that this is right. It might look like an easy solution, but from a psychological point of view it is wrong. It causes psychological damage and even it might only be a small piece of damage every time, it sums up. And it changes you. Maybe you won't agree, which would be logical, since it is part of you and you justify it because of that very reason. One might say that you are not out of the system and therefor cannot be objective.

I know a good amount of 5-7 year olds. They all have a very clear idea of time in the short term and their actions. If they are punished for something they did earlier that day, they get it.

I have to add though, that I understand that not every child is the same and that I can understand parents who lose control at a certain point. But I think that that is a fault, it's human, but still not an appropriate method.

If you spank because you've lost control, that's revenge, not disipline.

There is always a better solution and it works simple if parents don't make faults in the beginning. I can absolutly understand that you won't have any success with a discussion when your child is a product of 15 years of wrong education and maybe bad influence from his/her friends.

There is NOT always a better decision. Young children do NOT understand long term consequences. They only get short term consequences. "I do this it equals a spanking - Yeah, not going to do that." Granted, it doesn't work on every single child and shouldn't be overly used. But to say there is always a better solution just isn't true.

Apart from that parents just have to accept that teenagers are on a process to seperate from them and that their disrespectful behavior is 90% hormones.
By trying to fight against this disrespect it gets even worse.

Yep, this is why you must instill disipline early so when it comes to that point, their core values will keep them out of trouble.

I don't think that there is an easy solution, the whole education package has to be right, then you don't need to spank anybody. That's how I see it, also from a medical/psychological point of view.

Aren't you claiming that education is the "easy solution" in this statement.

Spanking is the easy way for a complex problem. And as always in life, nothing is for free. Somebody has to pay for the easy way, it is the longterm psychological state of mind of the children.
And maybe even the parents, who get everything back twice and triple as soon as the kid is a teenager. Because there can only be a rebellion against somebody who is against you.
I am no fan of "hippie" education without rules, that doesn't work either.

Please...I'm really bored of this argument. You spank your children and you mess with there heads. Come on...

How about loving your children so much that when you do disipline them it's the exception, not the rule and they GET it. That's how it works. I don't care what "technique" you want to use, but if you don't love your children all the spanking and education in the world won't disipline them.

 

[Max_DC]

I know a good amount of 5-7 year olds. They all have a very clear idea of time in the short term and their actions. If they are punished for something they did earlier that day, they get it.

I don't question that. Let me exaggerate to demonstrate : When you cut off a finger every time your child misbehaves, it will not forget and it will realize why his finger was cut off. Doesn't make it right though...

If you spank because you've lost control, that's revenge, not disipline.

Revenge = planned = evil
discipline = imo highly questionable way of educating
losing control = still wrong, but everybody makes faults every now and then.

There is NOT always a better decision. Young children do NOT understand long term consequences. They only get short term consequences. "I do this it equals a spanking - Yeah, not going to do that." Granted, it doesn't work on every single child and shouldn't be overly used. But to say there is always a better solution just isn't true.

Imo spanking is no option in 99%. I'd say never, but who knows, maybe there is sth out there
As said before, the fact that it works means nothing about the quality of your method.

Yep, this is why you must instill disipline early so when it comes to that point, their core values will keep them out of trouble.

Well, displine... I dunno, I don't like that word. children should be children, let them be. Life becomes hard enough later. If your young child "misbehaves", explain it to him, make him stop, use positve actions ( Behave, and you get XYZ), don't give him icecream whatever, there is really no need to spank.

Aren't you claiming that education is the "easy solution" in this statement.

Good education is not as simple as using your fists, but not that hard aswell. It also depends on the "quality" of the parents of course.

Please...I'm really bored of this argument. You spank your children and you mess with there heads. Come on...

Well it is true. I don't say that spanking makes them emotional zombies, that is no black&white thing. Physical force of your parents ( = the people a child should trust most ) is bad for your personality, and the sooner your practice that kind of education the worse it gets. It is as wrong as leting babies cry because you don't want to spoil them. Those parents just show off their little knowledge of how the brain works. Not everybody has a master in psychology, but some basic knowledge should be there.

And the " I got spanked a little and it didn't hurt me - argument" doesn't count btw, that is a subjective statement of somebody who is not out of the system he talks about.

Let me tell you my personal story for example. I was never spanked, I got twice as much pocket money as everybody else in my surrounding, I still get a lot more money than 90% of my friends, I don't have to work for it, I don't need to help at home, I got an WRX STi 7 months after my driver's licence etc

Yet I have values, respect my parents more than some of my friends, I never had huge problems with them, not even as teenager, I don't drink at all, I don't consume any drugs, I know how to handle money, I study medicine, I'm happy and have the right amount of self confidence. I got the possibility to have an own personality, I was not forced to believe in god, to believe in what my parents think. They still thaught me that it is important to get a good education etc.

Well, I know that it is not always as easy as in my case and that other familes in other parts of the world have to face more serious problems, which makes it harder to educate etc. Still, there is always another solution

How about loving your children so much that when you do disipline them it's the exception, not the rule and they GET it. That's how it works. I don't care what "technique" you want to use, but if you don't love your children all the spanking and education in the world won't disipline them.

Very true. Love is indeed the key.

 

[Danoff]

If your young child "misbehaves", explain it to him, make him stop, use positve actions ( Behave, and you get XYZ), don't give him icecream whatever, there is really no need to spank.

Positive actions aren't sufficient, they teach your child to blackmail you with bad behavior. Negative actions like taking away icecream won't always work either. In many cases you need to show your child where the boundaries lie and, when they're young, give them a concrete illustration of who is in charge. Without that, you'll teach nothing. I don't think spanking would be necessary for every child, but it probably is many children. Once they reach a certain age, it's not the best method. But below, say, 7 it's probably the best way to enforce control.

But let's be clear here, it doesn't teach them anything - it only establishes authority.

 

[Max_DC]

Positive actions aren't sufficient, they teach your child to blackmail you with bad behavior.

Maybe, but not necessarily. Certainly it is dangerous to immediately react after your kid did sth wrong and promise him XYZ if he/she stops. Maybe it should be the other way round. If your child has a good day, tell him that you are happy about it and then give him a little present etc...

Negative actions like taking away icecream won't always work either. In many cases you need to show your child where the boundaries lie and, when they're young, give them a concrete illustration of who is in charge. Without that, you'll teach nothing. I don't think spanking would be necessary for every child, but it probably is many children. Once they reach a certain age, it's not the best method. But below, say, 7 it's probably the best way to enforce control.

But let's be clear here, it doesn't teach them anything - it only establishes authority.

Your last sentence is the key imo. Spanking surely creates authority, but that is not necessariy. Create love and respect, not fear and authority.
Especially below 7 you should not use force. While I understand you logic, it is still the most vulnerable phase of personality. The younger the worse.
Spanking is never necessary. Children are all the same when they are young, the genetic differences don't matter that much in this case.

But I agree that parents can make enough faults in their education and then they have no possibility to control the situation without force. Which is their fault and maybe the one of the their surounding/culture.

A healthy child always has the potential to get a perfect education without spanking. But don't get me wrong, I see the problems. Mayn parents have enough problems in life, they work hard, got spanked theirselves etc.
There is theory and there is reality. Still it doesn't make certain ways of education appropriate imo.

 

[Swift]

Well, displine... I dunno, I don't like that word. children should be children, let them be. Life becomes hard enough later. If your young child "misbehaves", explain it to him, make him stop, use positve actions ( Behave, and you get XYZ), don't give him icecream whatever, there is really no need to spank.

You're joking, right? YOu can't "reason" with children. That's insane! As Danoff said, you draw a line. When they cross it, immediate consequences. It's not evil, it's not "planned" it's promised. Young children are smart enough to be able to reason with their parents and wear them down. This is only teaching them that when they mess up, all you have to do is manipulate the authority and you can get out of it.

Does your boss reason with you when you mess up? Nope, not if they are a good boss. They let you know what's up and to fix the situation ASAP or your out of there.

Good education is not as simple as using your fists, but not that hard aswell. It also depends on the "quality" of the parents of course.

Anyone that uses their fists on their children is abusing them. I will only ever spank my childrens butt. That's it. I know you didn't mean punching children but I just wanted to clearify. Also, this education you speak of, how is it possible to educate without disipline?

Maybe, but not necessarily. Certainly it is dangerous to immediately react after your kid did sth wrong and promise him XYZ if he/she stops. Maybe it should be the other way round. If your child has a good day, tell him that you are happy about it and then give him a little present etc...

So then they learn that if they're good for a day or whatever that they deserve a present? Sounds like social dependance to me. Granted, there are times when you can say, "If you good all the way to and from grandma's house we'll get some pizza" or something like that. But not on a regular everyday basis.

A healthy child always has the potential to get a perfect education without spanking. But don't get me wrong, I see the problems. Mayn parents have enough problems in life, they work hard, got spanked theirselves etc.
There is theory and there is reality. Still it doesn't make certain ways of education appropriate imo.

Again, how can you have education without disipline?

 

[Danoff]

Maybe, but not necessarily. Certainly it is dangerous to immediately react after your kid did sth wrong and promise him XYZ if he/she stops. Maybe it should be the other way round. If your child has a good day, tell him that you are happy about it and then give him a little present etc...

Bad system. You set the rules and you live by the rules. If you want to reward children for their good behavior they have to know exactly what good behavior triggers a reward and exactly what reward it triggers. Random rewards for behavior here and there aren't incentive because they can't be counted on.

Your last sentence is the key imo. Spanking surely creates authority, but that is not necessariy. Create love and respect, not fear and authority.

Children will challenge your authority at some point. It's a natural stage in early human development and everyone crosses it. They'll test out the rules until they cross the line. It's that way with everything. When they see flames, they'll put their hand on it to figure out that it hurts. They'll cut themselves before they figure out to be careful with sharp objects. They'll challenge the rules and your authority fairly often when they're young. The best response to those challenges is a quick concrete reinforcement of your dominance in the relationship. You can't go on a relationship of love and respect with a 4 year old. It's best not to try to pretend they're adults like that.

Especially below 7 you should not use force. While I understand you logic, it is still the most vulnerable phase of personality. The younger the worse. Spanking is never necessary. Children are are all the same when they are young, the genetic differences don't matter that much in this case.

Not all children are equal. Genetic differences do play a role at early ages. Spanking can be necessary for a child that refuses to accept his parent's authority.

Still it doesn't make certain ways of education appropriate imo.

I thought I explained this. Spanking is not a form of education.

 

[Dave A]

I agree, letting children be children let's them grow up thinking they can do what they want all the time and suffer none or very few consequenses.

 

[Rogue Ssv]

Depends on the child. Some are natural angels while others, like me, need to learn on our own. With GTP, with lying, with life.
Sure, discipline will enforce it, but without experience kids will most likely do what they want to do. (non Asian) Parents are too soft these days.

 

[Max_DC]

You're joking, right? YOu can't "reason" with children. That's insane! As Danoff said, you draw a line. When they cross it, immediate consequences. It's not evil, it's not "planned" it's promised. Young children are smart enough to be able to reason with their parents and wear them down. This is only teaching them that when they mess up, all you have to do is manipulate the authority and you can get out of it.

Well, it is hard work, but it works. As you say, children are smarter than one might think. It doesn't always show immediately, but it has a longterm function. My parents told me that they explained everything to me, things I didn't understand, and why certain things are wrong. I assume it worked.

I said that taling revenge on your children is a planned evil action, I think we agree on that one...

I understand your argument and to a certain point I agree. But there is no need to use physical methods.

When they cross the line as you said, explain why you think it is wrong. they will listen. If they don't then do what you have to do ( no ice cream, no visit of your his/her friend that day/ not watching TV etc). I don't say that you have to watch you children do what they want. But there is no need to spank.

Does your boss reason with you when you mess up? Nope, not if they are a good boss. They let you know what's up and to fix the situation ASAP or your out of there.

Well in medicine your boss will explain, in MacDonalds that might be different. But that is not the question, or do you want to compare the relationship to your boss to the one to your beloved parents?

Anyone that uses their fists on their children is abusing them. I will only ever spank my childrens butt. That's it. I know you didn't mean punching children but I just wanted to clearify. Also, this education you speak of, how is it possible to educate without disipline?

Yes I should have been more precise here.

So then they learn that if they're good for a day or whatever that they deserve a present? Sounds like social dependance to me. Granted, there are times when you can say, "If you good all the way to and from grandma's house we'll get some pizza" or something like that. But not on a regular everyday basis.


Again, how can you have education without disipline?

Well of course it is a little more complex. This discussion is theory. Imo you always have to talk about a specific situation. Show me a situation when somebody uses spanking as education method and I show you a better alternative. "Better" doesn't mean more effective, but better for the kid's personality and still solving the problem. Might take more time, might not work as good. But I never said it is easy.

A certain level of discipline is necessary, no doubt about it. Maybe it is just the German word "Disziplin" that was in my way, it has a slightly differnet meaning, is very much associated with negative aspects in my language.
So, discipline : yes, to a certain degree ( as little as necessariy though ),
spanking still no imo.

You should also consider, that we live in different societies. I assume that you also teach your children to believe in god, imo that is manipulation. And I do realize that spanking has a huge variety, ranging from symbolic actions to abuse...So I wouldn't say, that parents who use that method are criminals or stupid etc, I just think that there are better options...

Bad system. You set the rules and you live by the rules. If you want to reward children for their good behavior they have to know exactly what good behavior triggers a reward and exactly what reward it triggers. Random rewards for behavior here and there aren't incentive because they can't be counted on.

Sometimes one could get the impression you talk about educating a dog

Children will challenge your authority at some point. It's a natural stage in early human development and everyone crosses it. They'll test out the rules until they cross the line. It's that way with everything. When they see flames, they'll put their hand on it to figure out that it hurts. They'll cut themselves before they figure out to be careful with sharp objects. They'll challenge the rules and your authority fairly often when they're young. The best response to those challenges is a quick concrete reinforcement of your dominance in the relationship.

I agree. But why spanking ? Not necessariy, because of the bad side effects.

You can't go on a relationship of love and respect with a 4 year old. It's best not to try to pretend they're adults like that.

Oldfashioned point of view, you should have a look at new studies, Freud is not everything... Of course a 4year old is different than a 14 year old, but as I said my parents explained me stuff at that age. And even if it wouldn't work, there are other ways to show that you are the dominant part than spanking. Talk in a loud voice to them, that might often be enough.

Not all children are equal. Genetic differences do play a role at early ages. Spanking can be necessary for a child that refuses to accept his parent's authority.

I have to disagree here. The genetic effects are minmal compared to the faults parents (can) make. Spanking is never necessary. It works, it's fast and efficient, but never a must.
Maybe you are talking about children with certain syndromes, some children can hardly concentrate and parents think that they are not following their rules. In that case spanking is even more wrong.

 

[Rogue Ssv]

If my mom knew about GTP all she would have to do is threaten to ban me. Id be an angel forever.