Spanking children

[Swift]

Well, it is hard work, but it works. As you say, children are smarter than one might think. It doesn't always show immediately, but it has a longterm function. My parents told me that they explained everything to me, things I didn't understand, and why certain things are wrong. I assume it worked.

And the " I got spanked a little and it didn't hurt me - argument" doesn't count btw, that is a subjective statement of somebody who is not out of the system he talks about.

You can't have it both ways Max. If you use your personal experience to validate no spanking, you can't say that my personal experience doesn't vailidate spanking.

When they cross the line as you said, explain why you think it is wrong. they will listen. If they don't then do what you have to do ( no ice cream, no visit of your his/her friend that day/ not watching TV etc). I don't say that you have to watch you children do what they want. But there is no need to spank.

You CANNOT reason with a child. There is a distinct difference between love and respect. More on that later...

Well in medicine your boss will explain, in MacDonalds that might be different. But that is not the question, or do you want to compare the relationship to your boss to the one to your beloved parents?

It all depends on how badly you mess up.

Well of course it is a little more complex. This discussion is theory. Imo you always have to talk about a specific situation. Show me a situation when somebody uses spanking as education method and I show you a better alternative. "Better" doesn't mean more effective, but better for the kid's personality and still solving the problem. Might take more time, might not work as good. But I never said it is easy.

Max, Danoff has said it a thousand times. Spanking IS NOT a form of education.

You should also consider, that we live in different societies. I assume that you also teach your children to believe in god, imo that is manipulation. And I do realize that spanking has a huge variety, ranging from symbolic actions to abuse...So I wouldn't say, that parents who use that method are criminals or stupid etc, I just think that there are better options...

How is teaching a child about God manipulation and teaching them that there is no consequence that can't be gotten out of by "reasoning" not manipulation.

Spanking is about respect for authority. If you steal something and are caught, you can't just "reason" your way out of it with the police. You may have better luck with the judge, but it's unlikely. This is because there muc be respect for authority. A child will only respect authority that is enforced. If you don't enforce it, it will not be effective.

For young children, spanking is a great option because it gives them the chance to understand consequences and a chance for you to show love to your children. OF course, they don't know it until later.


I agree. But why spanking ? Not necessariy, because of the bad side effects.
Oldfashioned point of view, you should have a look at new studies, Freud is not everything... Of course a 4year old is different than a 14 year old, but as I said my parents explained me stuff at that age. And even if it wouldn't work, there are other ways to show that you are the dominant part than spanking. Talk in a loud voice to them, that might often be enough.

I agree. But why spanking ? Not necessariy, because of the bad side effects.
Oldfashioned point of view, you should have a look at new studies, Freud is not everything... Of course a 4year old is different than a 14 year old, but as I said my parents explained me stuff at that age. And even if it wouldn't work, there are other ways to show that you are the dominant part than spanking. Talk in a loud voice to them, that might often be enough.

By this statement here, it is clear to me that you don't have any children and chances are you aren't around young children very often.

 

[Max_DC]

(non Asian) Parents are too soft these days.

Well I heard that Korean and Chinese parents sometimes tend to be very strict in education... then again the Japanese are not. In the kindergarden they are allowed pretty much to do what they want, the live like kings/queens. Of course after that the hard japanese school systems starts...Or China, the onechild policy created a world of little princes, well at least that was the headline of a newspaper article I read recently

Edit : swift, unfortunately it is 11.30 pm here and after a 12 hour day in university and and before another 12 hour day in university I need to get some sleep. I'll answer tomorrow. good n8 *yawwwn*

 

[Danoff]

Sometimes one could get the impression you talk about educating a dog

Sorry not following you. A dog wouldn't care nearly as much as child whether you're consistent.

Oldfashioned point of view, you should have a look at new studies, Freud is not everything... Of course a 4year old is different than a 14 year old, but as I said my parents explained me stuff at that age. And even if it wouldn't work, there are other ways to show that you are the dominant part than spanking. Talk in a loud voice to them, that might often be enough.

To try to discipline a child with reason is to pretend it's an adult. Young children have a hard time grasping the abstract concepts necessary to convey the wrong they did. Now don't misunderstand me here, I still think it's absolutely critical to try to teach them what they've done wrong. But they're not necessarily going to grasp the abstract concepts right away. That's ok, as long as they respect your authority (see Cartman) and follow the rules anyway.

I have to disagree here. The genetic effects are minmal compared to the faults parents (can) make.

I'm not sure that's a disagreement actually. I'll agree that the biggest difference is made by parenting technique, but there will definitely be genetic behavioral effects even at a young age.

Maybe you are talking about children with certain syndromes, some children can hardly concentrate and parents think that they are not following their rules. In that case spanking is even more wrong.

I don't buy the whole ADD thing.

Here's a scenario for you:

You've grounded your child for breaking some rule (like throwing a ball in the house or something). You explain to your child why the rule he broke was important and that his penalty for breaking the rule is not being able to play video games. You put the video game box away and tell him that he'll be allowed to have it back next week, and that it should remind him that throwing the ball in the house is unacceptable.

He protests but you reason why it's a fair penalty. On no uncertain terms do you tell him that the video game box is off-limits for now.

You come home later to find him playing with the video game box.

That's a direct challenge of your authority. He figured you couldn't control his actions while you weren't there, and that he didn't need to listen to you. The proper course of action in my mind is to bring spanking into the picture to remind him of the consequences of challenging your authority. You either explain what was done wrong, and remind him of the rule he broke, then tell him that if it happens again a spanking will follow if he gets the game box again. Or go with a zero-tolerance policy and, after reminding him of the rules and the nature of his penalty, spank him immediately and double the grounding.

 

[Dave A]

When a baby is born, it doesn't know how to love, hate, respect other, care for others, subjec itself to authority or any of that. If you as a parent don't teach thoes qualities to your kids they will not learn them. A baby is driven by instinct, it knows when it's hungry, it'll do it's best to get fed, it doesn't care if it's making your life hell in the process, it doesn't care if it's making your life joyful in the process, it doesn't care. As he/she gets older they will start pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with, including challenging your authority, you need to show them your boss, you don't show it to them by telling them you are, you give them a good hiding, they know what they've done wrong, they don't need you to tell them what they've done most of the time, though it can help to explain it when the situation has calmed.

 

[FoolKiller]

Well in medicine your boss will explain, in MacDonalds that might be different. But that is not the question, or do you want to compare the relationship to your boss to the one to your beloved parents?

So an incompetent doctor that screws up while working on a patient is treated less harshly than a McDonald's employee that hasa register turn up $5 short?

Sorry it's off topic, but I find that very disturbing.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Well, displine... I dunno, I don't like that word. children should be children, let them be. Life becomes hard enough later. If your young child "misbehaves", explain it to him, make him stop, use positve actions ( Behave, and you get XYZ), don't give him icecream whatever, there is really no need to spank.

Yes, that way it comes as a surprise to them, and you have a 16 year old young man screaming "it's not fair"

Imo spanking is no option in 99%. I'd say never, but who knows, maybe there is sth out there
As said before, the fact that it works means nothing about the quality of your method.

Actually, results ARE the only proof of quality. It's like, you think if you speak abstractly, you'll blow this right over people using sounds logic's heads. people who think logically, don't let you blow steam outta your @$$ without calling it.
It very much has YET to be proven that spankings (when used properly) have a negative effect on children. (and if you use michael jackson you WILL get laughed into oblivion).

And as for ADD, guess what? I have it. some friends ive known have had it, and it doesnt mean crap. you can still listen.
Is ADD an excuse to get out of jail, if you commit a crime? no.

Don't teach your kids discipline, don't teach them respect, that's up to each individual parent, and it's their problem. But don't run around screaming, "why is he so bad" or, "I know my baby didnt do it" if they go to prison.

 

[Casio]

This hasn't been brought up in a while and I thought it would be interesting to hear if anyone has changed their views on the issue. Given light of this event happening in Australia.

A MUM was hauled before police and accused of assault after disciplining her nine-year-old daughter with a wooden spoon.

Officers warned Claire Davidson she risked being charged with "assault with a weapon" after her daughter revealed during a classroom discussion on bullying that her mum smacked her.

A shocked Ms Davidson told the Herald Sun a support worker from Yea Primary School reported her to police.

"I was told it was assault with a weapon to hit her with a wooden spoon on the bum," Ms Davidson said.

Full Story

 

[Encyclopedia]

I really don't think it's necessary. A sharp tone as well as removing certain privileges if they're bad should be enough to diciplin most children. Sure there are kids who are a lot more troublesome than others, but I really don't think violence is the way to go.

I've never been spanked or slapped, and neither has any of my friends (at least to my knowledge), and we've all turned out alright and know what's right and wrong.

 

[Keef]

This hasn't been brought up in a while and I thought it would be interesting to hear if anyone has changed their views on the issue. Given light of this event happening in Australia.



Full Story

How about we hear what the little girl and the mom both have to say about it. It's hard to come to any conclusions when you don't know how many times the spoon was swung, whether it had gnarly spikes on the slappin' side, etc. But it sounds like an attempt at simple discipline most likely, and not like the mom is some crazy lady who has some anger she needs resolved.

 

[Leonidae]

No pain, no gain. After spanking and other similar disciplinary methods became illegal in finland, kids have gotten out of hand completely. No respect for parents or authority whatsoever. My niece is sadly one of these kids.. however, she never dares to challenge MY authority. Must be because she has felt the sharp sting of electric flyswatter few times in the past when she has crossed the line with me.. yup, no physical violence, just a little jolt from that device. Call me cruel if you want, but she behaves better when she's at my apartment than when she's at my grandparents or her home..

 

[Northstar]

I think it's fine as long as it's over done. I was only spanked a couple times(never that hard though) and that is all it took. Once my mom raised her hand I would stop what ever I was doing because I knew she was serious.

This is the proper way to spank a child(in my opinion), people only pay attention to all the negative press. Basically, you just need to get the point across that you will spank them and than the threat alone is normally enough.

 

[jbthbt]

I have always found it interesting the number of people who, in one breath, criticize my parenting methods as too strict, and then in the next compliment my children on their behavior. Those conversations generally come after, "What do you do when they ..." I give my answer and then am swiftly accused of bad parenting. Why ask my advice if you don't really want it?

My wife and I have a 6 yr old boy and twin 5 yr old boys. The 5 yr olds have autism. There is no way our household would be even reasonably manageable without strict and steady discipline. Our standards are these: Blatant defiance = Spanking (we also have a three swat rule); Irresponsible behavior = grounding or equivalent (losing privileges); Accidents = no discipline (generally a discussion on how it could have been prevented).

I've been reamed on several occasions for the mere idea of disciplining a child with special needs, but special needs or not, they are still little boys who act like rotten little boys at time. If their behavior is directly related to their autism (over-stimulation in a store results in a melt-down) then we handle it accordingly, by removing the stimuli and aiding them with their coping methods. If they are being rotten little boys (someone steals their toy so they take a swing) they are disciplined in the same manner as our neuro-typical child.

I've only read a few pages worth of this discussion but I have to offer: when it crosses over the line into abuse, it should be dealt with accordingly. I have never struck any of my children in anger. If I am too angry to control myself, they get away without a spanking (which has happened only once in 6 years).

And encyclopedia, I think there is a big difference between knowing right and wrong and being able to make good decisions. I've said for a few years now, "I spank my children now, so that when they are teenagers they will listen to me, and maybe some day when they're adults they'll understand why I was right."

 

[Pupik]

I think the problem is that, socially, hitting a child of yours is doling out punishment; yet, beating the ever-living crap out of a random teenager that's intentionally destroyed your property is akin to assault. When out of the house, even a kid should be responsible for their misdeeds to others, within reason. It's the embarrassment that works, in my opinion.

We haven't had a reason to spank our two-year-old, she's not old enough yet. Besides, she's old enough to pick up and move like a pawn.

 

[Earth]

I see no problem with spanking, but some parents tend to get out of hand and let their emotions get the best of them.

 

[Radracing]

I think spanking for dicipline is okay, but not beating a child. I say child because children does not have the capacity to have a verbal discussion since it will just end up with a "Why?" question. So a slight spanking will do as long as they know you mean business. When they start laughing then you know it's not working. So the next question would be how hard do you hit your child? Just hard enough to let them know you are serious.

I very rarely spank my children but when they do get it they know it's time to listen. So if you are going to spank your child make sure it counts but not to the point where you are beating them to a pulp. When they get old enough to have a mature discussion on an issue I think you will know the time is past the physical dicipline.

Hardest part of being a parent is giving hard love, but sometimes it better to be the bad guy than to see your children grow up undiciplined and disrespectful. The funniest thing when my eldest daughter ask me why I ask her too many questions and why I get mad at her at times. My answer, I'm your parent and it's my job. If I didn't then I'm not doing my job as a parent.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

No pain, no gain. After spanking and other similar disciplinary methods became illegal in finland, kids have gotten out of hand completely. No respect for parents or authority whatsoever. My niece is sadly one of these kids.. however, she never dares to challenge MY authority. Must be because she has felt the sharp sting of electric flyswatter few times in the past when she has crossed the line with me.. yup, no physical violence, just a little jolt from that device. Call me cruel if you want, but she behaves better when she's at my apartment than when she's at my grandparents or her home..

"Behave correctly or we'll send you to Uncle Leo's."

 

[Leonidae]

exactly. However, she still likes me more than what I'd like her to. masochism perhaps?

 

[niky]

Hmmm... spanking. My wife and I resolved not to resort to it at first... but there's just something about little kids... they can't and won't understand carefully explained reasons why they shouldn't do something if they're not in the mood to listen...

If your child persists in engaging in potentially harmful or potentially life-threatening behavior, like climbing refrigerators or sticking plastic bags around their heads... what do you do?

Of course, you can't overdo it. For simple matters, it's often best to resort to different methods of punishment or to try to positively reinforce "good" behavior, but if there is no corresponding positive behavior for the negative behavior (hmmm... what's the opposite of killing yourself by plugging a fork into a wall socket... tell your kids NOT to do it, and they're inevitably going to try it), it's quite difficult to enforce positive reinforcement with preschoolers.

I'm a bad parent. Open sockets, plastic bags, granite floors...

 

[Speedy Samurai]

I recommend this book when it comes to understanding how a child's brain works.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553378252/?tag=gtplanet-20

It is interesting reading most notably the section regarding the development of different functions of the brain. IIRC, the book states that the part of the brain that handles logic isn't developed sufficiently until about 5-6 years. How are you going to explain to a 3 or 4 year old why they should not do something?

Spanking, ftw!

 

[Keef]

sticking plastic bags around their heads

No offense to you, but I gotta say, if they don't figure that one out mighty quick then it was probably just meant to be.

 

[Encyclopedia]

I wish that my dad had been stricter with me when I was a child since he was way too loose, but that doesn't mean I think he should've used physical force. I'm certain being strict with priveleges had been enough. Some people act like spanking is the only way.

It seems to me that some people are too quick to go for the spanking option. I personally think it's wrong and nothing that can be solved with a bit of creativity in 99.9% of cases, but hey it's your kids. I know that at least I won't use violent methods against mine.

 

[Sniffs]

well...this thread must have popped up while I was out of circulation back in 05. at least it hasn't been gravedug.

Discipline like that is a "damned if you do, Damed if you don't" if you do, your abusing them, if you don't, your spoiling them. and either way, they end up like the runarounds that Lionus was talking about.

i got smacked JUST once. for pulling a three year old out of the sandbox when he was being a brat. this was at thirteen, and that's a little LATE to be pulling THAT out. the paddle used was an 18x8 piece of 1/2 inch plywood with holes drilled in it. i shot my uncle such a look he actually backed up. what did the three year old get. a late nite soft smack.

 

[Radracing]

Hmm, I don't know about flogging a teenager. They are already at a point were they think they know everything and experiencing things on their own. If you can't dicuss differences at that age it's probably too late for spanking and especially flogging.

Time for a different strategy at that point 'cuz I think it will only escalate to violence at that age.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I was hit once in a while by my parents when I was young (around 5-7) but only with the hand, and to the back. They never ever dared to go overboard like in some child abuse cases. They stopped spanking me when I got into junior high, and just gave me guilt trips whenever I did something bad.

I think people overreact when a child gets hit, but it's probably due to a cultural thing (Indian families tend to find it odd to not hit a misbehaving child).

 

[niky]

No offense to you, but I gotta say, if they don't figure that one out mighty quick then it was probably just meant to be.

I recommend this book when it comes to understanding how a child's brain works.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553378252/?tag=gtplanet-20

It is interesting reading most notably the section regarding the development of different functions of the brain. IIRC, the book states that the part of the brain that handles logic isn't developed sufficiently until about 5-6 years. How are you going to explain to a 3 or 4 year old why they should not do something?

Spanking, ftw!

Simply... a preschooler can learn to fear dogs. They can learn to fear heights. Heck... this is almost instinctive. But fear of suffocating to death inside a refrigerator or a plastic bag or death by electrocution from playing with a power socket and a fork will obviously not come to a child unless they've actually almost killed themselves that way. And most of the time, in these cases, they don't stop at almost. (hell... I've nearly electrocuted myself once or twice...)

In these cases, explaining won't work, so you actually have to scare the beejesus out of them when they do that. And sometimes, that scaring includes a little spanking.

But not beating. I was spanked a lot as a kid... with the leather belt and the brush. I hated it. We save spanking for only the very worst case scenarios.

 

[CTznOfTime]

My dad spanked me and my sister when were 3 or 4 ... with a bambo stick... (yeah we are asian LMAO ... ouch)
...therefore, if i ever have any children and if they decided to mis-behave, AND that no other resort can prevent from doing what they are not supposed to do... they unfortunately for them would have to endure what i endure...

Spanking is different from Beating and Abuses!

I agree with "SumBrownKid", people here in america tend to over-react whenever a child is being lessoned, heck they over-react for almost everything... :! what about BreastFeeding... it's natural... i dont see why they make it sound like it's discusting or sexual etc... anyway i diverge...

My point is, like SBK said, the American culture's view on things should evoluate a little and not put everything in one bag...

if you dont teach a misbehaving kids now, who will and when will they learn??
do you think letting the natural course of things is better? or people in the streets later in life is a better scenario?

and +1 for "Sniff"'s comment:
Spanking as a "Discipline is "damned if you do, Damed if you don't"
if you do, you're abusing them, if you don't, your spoiling them."
either way, you are wrong...

But as you know, the world aint a nice place... they need to learn to behave early on...

 

[Joel]

spanking is fine IMO. I wasn't spanked much, but only when i really screwed up. I'm tired of the pansification of North America.

 

[jedaye]

Here in New Zealand there is an "anti-smacking" law. (I'm not joking, google 'anti-smacking to find out more). You are not allowed to use excessive force when smacking. But this was a major screw up. It was hard for the police to monitor the situation, so all the bad parents were getting away with it, while the good parents were unable to do anything to their misbehaving children.

 

[chepe371]

I was never abused, but my ma has a temper so she would smack me up(not up side the head), when i was young (before 12) i would bottle the anger that i felt, i wanted to strike back but i didnt dare because of the psychological aspect, so i would manifest it at school, at the very sight of physical confrontation id go wild on the poor kid, done it all, broke teeth kicked faces chucked ice at faces.

It was only when i hit puberty and grew balls that i told my ma very firmly NEVER to touch me again, my stature even at that early age proved to be enough to deterr her, instead she just screamed more.

Since i have a dog i've learned that you dont need ANY sort of punishment, you shouldnt scream at a dog for what they do WRONG, instead, praise for what they do RIGHT, and simply disagree with behaviors you find unacceptable and should certainly NEVER strike a dog, because they will develop a fear and distrust of even theyre most loved human, which can lead them to bite a stranger for merely petting them(they might react like if theyre about to be struck and bug out).

Kids should sort each other out, if there is disciplined to be doled out it should be between themselves or from older kids, i always respected older kids in HS because if you got out of line you would get IN the line and get smaked up. Today younger people are losing that sense of hierarchy between themselves, We gotta bring back Dazed and Confused style whoopings, as long as theyre not extremely violent, they dont cause half as much damage as getting whooped by a parent which you admire and trust.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Speaking of discipline, did anyone watch that South Park episode when Cartman's mom hires the Dog Whisperer?

One of the best episodes ever.