Standard cars in GT6?

[Crispy9001]

Nice triple post.



Not entirely true. GT5's cars level of detail on Premium cars is noticeably better than Forza's, especially whilst in photomode.

&, well... they do have a bigger team working on Forza (Last time I checked at least) ..So that would explain the shorter development time.

Well, I guess PD needs a bigger team, then! Alot of standard cars in GT5 are useless or rare because of the picky-picky Used Car Dealer & Online Dealership, anyway.

 

[Antineutrino]

Please no standard cars.
Only cars... Even fewer. 500 full modeled cars are WAY BETTER than 1000+ standars & premium mix.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Not entirely true. GT5's cars level of detail on Premium cars is noticeably better than Forza's, especially whilst in photomode.

I don't think PD should be tailoring the designs of their vehicles to photo mode, to be honest.

 

[1241Penguin]

I don't think PD should be tailoring the designs of their vehicles to photo mode, to be honest.

Exactly. There is no point in PD putting so much effort into the details of the models if they can't be seen. Though it's possible PD do this to ensure the models can be reused in future games.

 

[KinLM]

People keep talking about how "Forza has more premiums and does it in less time!" And such.

Well, I'm definitely not trying to start a war here, and sorry for this.

But PD's Premium cars are pretty consistent in all areas of the game. The same, sadly, can't be said for Forza. They have many more workers, yet despite that, their cars are below the level of the "Premium" GT cars, and keep in mind that the cars you see in Forza's photo mode aren't the same ones you drive on the track.. When you're actually racing, Forza's cars aren't much different than GT's standards.

So before anybody else justifies Forza's cars as a reason that GT shouldn't have standard cars, just realize that this isn't a very good reason. Forza does the same thing, they're just more subtle about it.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

How exactly are Forza's car models really no better than GT5's standards when racing? I find that hard to believe considering that even in races, Forza's car models aren't one-piece models like GT5's standards.

 

[KinLM]

How exactly are Forza's car models really no better than GT5's standards when racing? I find that hard to believe considering that even in races, Forza's car models aren't one-piece models like GT5's standards.

Maybe not, but they're sure nothing near why they are in photo mode.

And GT5's premiums are such high quality, I believe that they may have been made this way so that they'll even be good enough for GT6 so as they can focus on taking their standard models and upping the quality.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

But PD's Premium cars are pretty consistent in all areas of the game. The same, sadly, can't be said for Forza.

True, though there are some issues with a handful of GT5's. The Gallardo's wheel wells are awful, while the LFA is possibly one of the best-modelled cars on any console game. Some of the earlier Prologue models also have noticeably lower quality than some of the later cars, which is much of the case with FM4's low quality cars (the first-gen NSX and the 22B, for example, are just awful).

They have many more workers, yet despite that, their cars are below the level of the "Premium" GT cars

Not true - a good chunk of FM4's models are at least on par with GT5's, from a strictly modelling and texture point of view. Some of the newer cars like the Jag XK120 or the Alfa 33 are superbly made, I'd even say. You may want to take a look at this thread; it's FM4 car models extracted from the game and put in better environments, with otherwise no touching up of the models. It does show that GT5 still does have the better lighting engine though, that I won't argue 👍

and keep in mind that the cars you see in Forza's photo mode aren't the same ones you drive on the track.. When you're actually racing, Forza's cars aren't much different than GT's standards.

Not even close to true, as the FM4 cars on track are not assets from a decade and a previous console generation ago. They're also all modelled as multi-piece vehicles with parts able to be broken off; not the Standards' painted-on shut-lines and warm-butter damage model.

So before anybody else justifies Forza's cars as a reason that GT shouldn't have standard cars, just realize that this isn't a very good reason. Forza does the same thing, they're just more subtle about it.

Except not the same thing.

That all said (and really not wanting to drag this more off-topic), I won't use FM4 as justification for GT6 to not have standard cars; I'll use the general awfulness of Standards on their own as my justification. Yes, I'll be very sad to see some of them go if when they disappear in GT6 (the chances of my little orange '70 Galant GTO MR making the journey is unlikely), much like many of us were when GT3 dropped hundreds of GT2's cars, but I accept they're way behind the times technologically, and as a game that preaches realism, I'd rather make that sacrifice and have cars that not only look more like the real thing than what was possible on the PS2, but also are able to better react to their surroundings like the real thing. The Premium approach to modelling opens the door for far better damage modelling, more visual customization, and more complex physics engine variables if PD so chooses; no other game would get off the hook for using such a large percentage of obviously last-gen content, why should GT5 (or indeed, GT6) get a pass?

Of course, the ironic part there is I'd have no problem with PD using GT5's Premiums in GT6 on the PS4, essentially making them last-gen models on that system. But they wouldn't look nearly as out of place, all in my opinion of course 👍

 

[KinLM]

True, though there are some issues with a handful of GT5's. The Gallardo's wheel wells are awful, while the LFA is possibly one of the best-modelled cars on any console game. Some of the earlier Prologue models also have noticeably lower quality than some of the later cars, which is much of the case with FM4's low quality cars (the first-gen NSX and the 22B, for example, are just awful).

Not true - a good chunk of FM4's models are at least on par with GT5's, from a strictly modelling and texture point of view. Some of the newer cars like the Jag XK120 or the Alfa 33 are superbly made, I'd even say. You may want to take a look at this thread; it's FM4 car models extracted from the game and put in better environments, with otherwise no touching up of the models. It does show that GT5 still does have the better lighting engine though, that I won't argue 👍

Not even close to true, as the FM4 cars on track are not assets from a decade and a previous console generation ago. They're also all modelled as multi-piece vehicles with parts able to be broken off; not the Standards' painted-on shut-lines and warm-butter damage model.

Except not the same thing.

That all said (and really not wanting to drag this more off-topic), I won't use FM4 as justification for GT6 to not have standard cars; I'll use the general awfulness of Standards on their own as my justification. Yes, I'll be very sad to see some of them go if when they disappear in GT6 (the chances of my little orange '70 Galant GTO MR making the journey is unlikely), much like many of us were when GT3 dropped hundreds of GT2's cars, but I accept they're way behind the times technologically, and as a game that preaches realism, I'd rather make that sacrifice and have cars that not only look more like the real thing than what was possible on the PS2, but also are able to better react to their surroundings like the real thing. The Premium approach to modelling opens the door for far better damage modelling, more visual customization, and more complex physics engine variables if PD so chooses; no other game would get off the hook for using such a large percentage of obviously last-gen content, why should GT5 (or indeed, GT6) get a pass?

Of course, the ironic part there is I'd have no problem with PD using GT5's Premiums in GT6 on the PS4, essentially making them last-gen models on that system. But they wouldn't look nearly as out of place, all in my opinion of course 👍

To be honest I agree with pretty much all those points when you really get down to it. Thanks for helping me see it in another way.

 

[Griffith500]

... no other game would get off the hook for using such a large percentage of obviously last-gen content, why should GT5 (or indeed, GT6) get a pass?

...

I wasn't aware GT5 did "get off the hook". I'm pretty sure one of the greatest criticisms was / is the way the car count was sold before the "revelation" (it really was too good to be true; I can't have been the only one actually expecting it to happen?!) that 80% were being carried over from GT4.

All of this is moot, because at the rate PD should be churning cars out by now and the expected delivery for GT6 (now that it's almost certainly on PS4), we're likely to see just as many, if not possibly more cars, - all "Premiums" - when that arrives anyway.

What's sad about this is that the unnecessarily harsh response to the Standards might mean PD will be less inclined to go against the grain of "expected" mainstream standards (heh) in future, when that's exactly what the original game was in many ways.


By the way, the "warm butter" damage benefits from the much higher vertex density on the Premiums - it's the exact same model in either case. I expect it's so low in detail because of the ridiculously high density of the Premiums - if all cars were Standard quality, you can bet the damage model would actually look / perform better.

 

[thelvynau]

I wasn't aware GT5 did "get off the hook". I'm pretty sure one of the greatest criticisms was / is the way the car count was sold before the "revelation" (it really was too good to be true; I can't have been the only one actually expecting it to happen?!) that 80% were being carried over from GT4.

All of this is moot, because at the rate PD should be churning cars out by now and the expected delivery for GT6 (now that it's almost certainly on PS4), we're likely to see just as many, if not possibly more cars, - all "Premiums" - when that arrives anyway.

What's sad about this is that the unnecessarily harsh response to the Standards might mean PD will be less inclined to go against the grain of "expected" mainstream standards (heh) in future, when that's exactly what the original game was in many ways.

By the way, the "warm butter" damage benefits from the much higher vertex density on the Premiums - it's the exact same model in either case. I expect it's so low in detail because of the ridiculously high density of the Premiums - if all cars were Standard quality, you can bet the damage model would actually look / perform better.

How would the damage look and perform better?

Edit: How can you see people complaining about last gen cars in a current gen game unnecessary?

The fact that alot of people complained about standards show that they dont belong in a modern game.

Im pretty sure pd wont make that same mistake, also I am sure that alot of people will be more cautious about buying it.

 

[lbpomg95]

I hope standards just disappear to be honest. Even though they were last-gen imports, remodelling the physics and damage still took time. Time that could be spent making more high quality cars, or tracks.

 

[Ills1999]

How would the damage look and perform better?

Edit: How can you see people complaining about last gen cars in a current gen game unnecessary?

The fact that alot of people complained about standards show that they dont belong in a modern game.

Im pretty sure pd wont make that same mistake, also I am sure that alot of people will be more cautious about buying it.

That's weird I don't use ANY premium cars while playing (except the 2011 proto for b-spec grinding), my favorites are ALL standards, I hope PD does not take the advice of the masses.

I hope standards just disappear to be honest. Even though they were last-gen imports, remodelling the physics and damage still took time. Time that could be spent making more high quality cars, or tracks.

I don't want "high-quality" cars. I want normal production cars of varying quality.

 

[Samus]

Well they would have to re-do the important standards in premium quality. When they say that standard cars will be gone it means the notion of them, not that all of those cars will be gone.

 

[Spagetti69]

I can't have been the only one actually expecting it to happen?!) that 80% were being carried over from GT4.

Hats off to you Griff if you called that one. I was most certainly surprised.
I still remember the mega thread of "Standard cars won't support multiple internal views".

It was widely regarded by some that Cockpits were modelled for all cars. (I didn't go with that theory).
I never once read a thread claiming standards before any official announcement.

They need consistency across the board.

 

[Ills1999]

Well they would have to re-do the important standards in premium quality. When they say that standard cars will be gone it means the notion of them, not that all of those cars will be gone.

The problem is that they seem to think we need dozens of mx-5's, skylines, rx-7's etc..

If we're talking about dropping cars, I'd like to see them start with those models.

 

[Samus]

Well I would hope they do because as it's been covered many of those cars are identical except for name. There are something like 33 Mazda MX-5s but only 11 are actually unique cars, the others are just renamed/rebadged. But then you could argue they are easy to put in the game, but I don't think they should count as seperate models in the car count, it's a cheap way to get a large number.

All we can do is wait and hope. I haven't got much of that though, after 5 games they've barely changed their approach, I don't expect them to suddenly with 6.

 

[Stumps_GTI]

All we can do is wait and hope. I haven't got much of that though, after 5 games they've barely changed their approach, I don't expect them to suddenly with 6.

So true.....
It's kinda funny, but I simply "gloss over" MOST of the stuff in the UCD these days, mainly due to the fact that you just know, 50% or more, of what is available, are these type/brand of cars...
You train yourself to instinctively pick the ones that appeal to you. 👍
But culling all the "clones" would surely make it more enjoyable.

 

[thelvynau]

That's weird I don't use ANY premium cars while playing (except the 2011 proto for b-spec grinding), my favorites are ALL standards, I hope PD does not take the advice of the masses.

I don't want "high-quality" cars. I want normal production cars of varying quality.

Are you saying you would be happy with these standards on gt6 if its on ps4?

 

[TokoTurismo]

Still going to say standard cars need to go and hope they forever not come back. They were used for car count and that isn't right imo.

Take some standards and upgrade them into premium, such as the Toyota Supra RZ '98 and the ASL Garaiya '02.

 

[sparkytooth]

I personally think the less clones the better (they're like Stormtroopers) so if you round out all the clone cars (Japanese mostly) and kill them off,that would give the team room for more Premium cars and they could transform as many of the standard cars (old Zondas,Rufs,Race cars and various other historic cars) as possible into high quality premium cars (We don't need any more Skylines or RX-7's or anything with more than 4 variations) which would make the car list much more attractive and that's one of my main draws with GT5,the standard cars are practically there to justify the 5 years of development,populate the UCD and satisfy Sony and the fans who can't wait just like GTPSP did (which I think could have been released after GT5 and that would have benefited both games,they didn't need it out yet if it's just a real car collector simulator and 12 or so new car showcase game).They should have instead just release the game with the 221 premium cars (at time of press) which was more than enough,and add other content that would benefit the experience more than just 810 or so unnecessary cars (which the majority are cloned GTR's,NSX's and MX-5's despite the fact I love Japanese cars) which I rarely use at all (I prefer premium cars and the premium list is more balanced than the standard list).

In conclusionD needs no more standard cars in GT6,they just need to add less total cars to add overall quality to the game (300-450 premium cars are enough and no standards at all).They need to think seriously about the car list.

 

[Griffith500]

Hats off to you Griff if you called that one. I was most certainly surprised.
I still remember the mega thread of "Standard cars won't support multiple internal views".

It was widely regarded by some that Cockpits were modelled for all cars. (I didn't go with that theory).
I never once read a thread claiming standards before any official announcement.

They need consistency across the board.

My take is that the Standards were intended to be a legacy throwback for people like me. What probably happened, along with all the other stuff in the game, is that things didn't get implemented the way they should / ideally would have been. And then came the marketing: "1000 cars". People went crazy, and I know I wasn't the only one who was skeptical of where all those cars came from when 2 years earlier GT5 Spec III only had 60, and GT4 was released 4 years before that.

Yes, it was unacceptable to throw that number around, and I can see why some would think the Standards were only included for that reason, but I maintain that the Standards were a reaction to people like me lamenting losing so many of their favourites from GT2 in transitioning to GT3 - GT4 had more cars than GT2, so the problem would have been even worse!

Consistency would be nice in an ideal world, but I've had plenty of fun with the Standards, so I'm not going to cry about the few things that annoy me about them (like not being able to use them in photomode...)

That cockpit view thing was another point where I was clasping my skull in disbelief at the way people were taking something that hadn't even been said and convincing themselves that it was true. It was hard work communicating that it would be so very unlikely. Although I will say I did allow myself a few flights of fancy, mostly with crash-landings afterwards...
It just pisses me off that people build their own fantasy and make a big song and dance when reality doesn't live up to it - blame marketing if you like, but you should automatically be wary of something that is only designed to get you to part with your money.

How would the damage look and perform better?

Edit: How can you see people complaining about last gen cars in a current gen game unnecessary?

The fact that alot of people complained about standards show that they dont belong in a modern game.

Im pretty sure pd wont make that same mistake, also I am sure that alot of people will be more cautious about buying it.

The damage would look better because allocating the same processing budget to fewer vertices results in much more power per vertex, i.e. the model can be more sophisticated, and you can essentially just do more with it. It's clearly geared for the Premiums, that are given a certain budget per vertex in line with the 3/4 million poly meshes that just doesn't translate to the Standards - there's not enough detail. I had hoped before the game was launched that they'd look into tessellation because that would help there (and with the mesh silhouettes).

I never said complaining was unnecessary, it's the childish lampooning that is unnecessary. The mistake made was the way it was marketed - it's an issue of perspective, and people need to stop being so damned image conscious (fat chance when the game, in fact the whole Sony brand, is sold primarily on that pretence already).

Oh yeah, did I say this already? I don't expect we will see Standards in GT6, but not for the reasons you stated (they should already have well over 600 cars by now) - not that the vast majority of people will read it any other way.

Are you saying you would be happy with these standards on gt6 if its on ps4?

Yes, for the few that'll remain (see above). I'd also like to see GT2's missing cars, but that's not going to happen either, although they'd be great in the museum...

 

[thelvynau]

My take is that the Standards were intended to be a legacy throwback for people like me. What probably happened, along with all the other stuff in the game, is that things didn't get implemented the way they should / ideally would have been. And then came the marketing: "1000 cars". People went crazy, and I know I wasn't the only one who was skeptical of where all those cars came from when 2 years earlier GT5 Spec III only had 60, and GT4 was released 4 years before that.

Yes, it was unacceptable to throw that number around, and I can see why some would think the Standards were only included for that reason, but I maintain that the Standards were a reaction to people like me lamenting losing so many of their favourites from GT2 in transitioning to GT3 - GT4 had more cars than GT2, so the problem would have been even worse!

Consistency would be nice in an ideal world, but I've had plenty of fun with the Standards, so I'm not going to cry about the few things that annoy me about them (like not being able to use them in photomode...)

That cockpit view thing was another point where I was clasping my skull in disbelief at the way people were taking something that hadn't even been said and convincing themselves that it was true. It was hard work communicating that it would be so very unlikely. Although I will say I did allow myself a few flights of fancy, mostly with crash-landings afterwards...
It just pisses me off that people build their own fantasy and make a big song and dance when reality doesn't live up to it - blame marketing if you like, but you should automatically be wary of something that is only designed to get you to part with your money.

The damage would look better because allocating the same processing budget to fewer vertices results in much more power per vertex, i.e. the model can be more sophisticated, and you can essentially just do more with it. It's clearly geared for the Premiums, that are given a certain budget per vertex in line with the 3/4 million poly meshes that just doesn't translate to the Standards - there's not enough detail. I had hoped before the game was launched that they'd look into tessellation because that would help there (and with the mesh silhouettes).

I never said complaining was unnecessary, it's the childish lampooning that is unnecessary. The mistake made was the way it was marketed - it's an issue of perspective, and people need to stop being so damned image conscious (fat chance when the game, in fact the whole Sony brand, is sold primarily on that pretence already).

Oh yeah, did I say this already? I don't expect we will see Standards in GT6, but not for the reasons you stated (they should already have well over 600 cars by now) - not that the vast majority of people will read it any other way.

Yes, for the few that'll remain (see above). I'd also like to see GT2's missing cars, but that's not going to happen either, although they'd be great in the museum...

My bad I reread it you said the harshness was unnecessary not the fact they complained my bad.

Thanks for the info on the damage I might look it up and learn more.

 

[Ills1999]

Are you saying you would be happy with these standards on gt6 if its on ps4?

I want more cars, better rendered cars, and I've had my fill of super cars, I'm much more interested in 'normal' cars. Playing around with sleeper cars, getting to see what they can do, is fun for me.

Salivating over the latest piece of unobtainium hardware, isn't.

This discussion may be different than the standard/premium discussion, I'm really unclear with how that nuance really works. But like I said, it's generally cars from the standard side of the garage that I like to play with.

 

[thelvynau]

I want more cars, better rendered cars, and I've had my fill of super cars, I'm much more interested in 'normal' cars. Playing around with sleeper cars, getting to see what they can do, is fun for me.

Salivating over the latest piece of unobtainium hardware, isn't.

This discussion may be different than the standard/premium discussion, I'm really unclear with how that nuance really works. But like I said, it's generally cars from the standard side of the garage that I like to play with.

Must be my day for misreading posts im going to quit while im ahead.

 

[HAL20XX]

If standard cars make it into the next in the series, that is an absolute no buy for me. If they do, it just means another sequel that only Kaz's needs and wants have been met.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

My view on this is that PD should look at the standard car list and try to work out which cars are the most popular (looking at the trading and tuning forums on here would be a good start). Then as well as new cars, these cars should be given priority to be modelled into Premium.
Next step is to remove the unnecessary 'clone' cars from the remaining standard car list. There isn't really much point in EU, J and US variants of the same car unless the specs are wildly different.
Then if there is time after the New and Popular premium models are made and the rest of the game is pretty much finalised then work should start on making the remaining standard cars Premium.
Obviously it is unlikely they could all be made Premium, but I feel an upgraded Standard level would suffice for those cars left over with improved textures and a lower resolution interior (the prowler in GT5 is an example of what I mean).

GT has become like a car encyclopaedia, so on that basis I think removing cars completely from the series is worse than having slightly lower res models of them.

 

[MoLiEG]

If standard cars make it into the next in the series, that is an absolute no buy for me.

👍

Standards = No buy from me either...

 

[TextRich]

While all premium cars would be ideal for GT6, the reality in GT5 is that there are many, MANY very cool and unique STANDARD cars in the game. It would significantly downsize GT6's garage without those cars. One of the most fun I'm having with the game is going to the UCD and seeing what will be on sale and hoping it will be a car I don't have yet, or wanted to buy but didn't have enough credits at the time.

I personally could do without 20 variations of the exact same Japanese car myself. It's like PD was trying to cover all their bases. Imagine someone thinking, "I was born in 1997 and there are only '96 and '98 NSXes in GT6. How dare Kaz ignore my year of birth! No buy from me!"

 

[BoingsterGT]

I hate everything about the standard cars. I especially hate how some of the best cars in the game are standards! The Bugatti Veyron and Spyker C8 have some of the nicest interiors in automotive creation and they were made standard. Instead of making 1000+ cars (200-300 of them were complete lemons) in the game it would have been better to have 500-600 as long as all of them are premiums.