Staying on this side of the Atlantic

[Diego440]

In recent months (or maybe years), I've noticed a surge in the aggression on posts.

This aggression comes mostly from North America. I was going to say "Americans", but since America is a continent and not a country... oh well, that would takes us into a whole different discussion. Anyway, whenever I've argued a subject with someone from the U.S., I've been answered (mostly) with very aggressive, derogatory and downright insulting comments. It doesn't matter if my point is valid or not, these people will just not lose the chance to thow in a few insulting phrases.

I admit I'm a bit taunting and very sarcastic at times. But above all else, I try to extend the same courtesy toward others as I'd like them to direct to me. There are only two instances where I've directly attacked users here. One was M5Power and the other was McLaren_F1_GTR. I apologize to the latter, since it was unprovoked.

But still, whenever I argue a point or enter a discussion with Europeans, Asians, Australians and the rest of the world, there seems to be no tension. They understand sacrasm better, perhaps?

It's not that I don't understand U.S., since my grandfather was from New York and I've lived around four years in the States. In St. Paul (MN), Buffalo (NY), New York City and Miami (FL), in case you're wondering. But I've also lived in other countries and been treated as an American... I was once refused service in a restaurant in Madrid because I looked American. And frankly, there are few countries in the world with such a strong anti-American feeling as Spain.

Hence, the title of the thread. Should we restrict comments geography-wise? Is it alright to call a Briton "Bloke", but it's wrong to call an American "Dude"? Why can you tell someone from the UK how much Lotuses suck (for example), but you can't tell an American that Chevy's are crap? These are just examples... I love Lotuses and am indifferent to Chevys, so don't take that literally.

 

[Young_Warrior]

I think some of it is because our american friends see america bashing on most sites where people from all over come together and post such as nearlygood.com . On that site there are videos and people can leave comments and theres alot of america bashing and I think theyre starting to get tired of it.

But then theres also certain people who just because they live in the most powerful country in the world they can dismiss anyone elses opinions and belifs as wrong as theyre the most militilarly advanced and so they must be right. Like for example some people were saying that without america the rest of the world wouldnt survive if they cut off trade when Infact if america was to isolate themselves from everyone else the rest of the world as a whole would be better off but they would be worse off. If that was to happen rich european countries would also be worse off and so thats why it doesnt happen.

 

[ledhed]

Spain ? Is that in Ohio ?

 

[sukerkin]

I do agree that there has been an ever-rising under-current of abrasiveness from certain posters - I hadn't really noticed that it was North Americans who were responsible for it tho' (I'm not saying that it's an incorrect observation, just that I hadn't made the correlation myself).

To be honest, I just took it to be the side-effect of GTP being flooded by 'younger-folks' (with the release of GT4) who take advantage of the seperation and anonymity that a keyboard gives them i.e. they get to act like they were half their age and mouth-off belligerently because no-one can get at them to make 'their bodies cash the cheques their typing fingers write' (to mangle an old phrase).

It may be tho' that you are correct. I have certainly seen that even moderators here (of American extraction) have become shorter-tempered and more aggressive recently; tho' who can blame them after the tsunami of stress that was GT4 hit?

On the whole, I think tensions globally are higher and that's having an impact on the internet fora. It's possible that the reason why it seems that Americans are the worst offenders is that those of us from the Old World are more used to taking things in our stride (we 'vent' by 'moaning' and shrugging in a "c'est la vie" way rather than 'attacking' (at least that's the English trait anyhow) ).

It will either improve or get worse (now that's a helpful thing to say ).

But if you're finding as an individual that certain people are being too rough-tongued (and not in a good way, ooh, nurse ) then either ignore them or take the official step of asking for moderator supervision of that persons behaviour.

 

[Young_Warrior]

Woah were have you been hiding all this time. You have made a excellent summary of the on goings around here.

 

[Diego440]

sukerkin: I'm not pointing any fingers, really... It just seems as a general thing. I've noticed many Americans are highly susceptible of anyone talking about their country, but that's expected from anyone. It just seems the US's faults have been more in the news lately and people are bashing them for anything. The other day I made fun of Colombia and I actually got a PM suggesting I change my post. No threats, no dissing, just the message. I promptly did.

Young Warrior, to make one thing clear, I wouldn't want this thread to become a place to bash the US... there's already a thread to argue about that. I feel your pain nonetheless. And ledhed, your reply was unexpectedly predictable.

 

[Swift]

It may be tho' that you are correct. I have certainly seen that even moderators here (of American extraction) have become shorter-tempered and more aggressive recently; tho' who can blame them after the tsunami of stress that was GT4 hit?

Would you say here in the opinions forum or on GTP as a whole?

Also, I found a rising level of aggressiveness in general and I think it's mainly for the reasons sukerkin described. Anytime you have the younger people coming in you will have increased hostility. Just a fact, not discrimination.

 

[sukerkin]

I don't really browse about all of GTP very widely, Swift so I can only really speak of the Opinions and GT4 specific fora.

I know some of the moderators here very well indeed (close enough, for enough years, to call them friends (even tho' we've never met physically)) and I have seen that endlessly having to cope with the less salubrious posters has eroded their patience.

As I said, I don't blame them for it and I think it's a side-effect of the general tension level - I don't think that it helps matters, however.

That's very easy for me to say, I know; I'm a moderator elsewhere and in a month don't have to deal with the merest fraction of what the mods here have to wade in daily.

Sometimes a strong hand is needed to bring an unruly forumite to order, I wouldn't for a second dispute that. But sometimes, softer, persuasive words will do the job too and give a better example.

Like I said tho', easy for me to say when I don't have to deal with Administrating in such an environement.

 

[Danoff]

In recent months (or maybe years), I've noticed a surge in the aggression on posts.

This aggression comes mostly from North America. I was going to say "Americans", but since America is a continent and not a country... oh well, that would takes us into a whole different discussion. Anyway, whenever I've argued a subject with someone from the U.S., I've been answered (mostly) with very aggressive, derogatory and downright insulting comments. It doesn't matter if my point is valid or not, these people will just not lose the chance to thow in a few insulting phrases.

Maybe it's threads like this one that are the problem...

I'm been met with hostility from both sides of the Atlantic. I'm not seeing a difference.

 

[Lee]

Perhaps is media influence on the younger generation thats causing it, with all the "gangsters' around now you would expect some confrontation, in england you get confrentations bewtween "chavs" and "grebos" all the time, its because of the differences we all have in our personal opinions.

They have to clash sooner or later and you just need that one comment to set it all off.

 

[Diego440]

It has been my experience that aggressiveness comes mainly from North America, but it's not exclusive to it. Also, although it's common knowledge that younger users will tend to me more aggressive towards someone picking on them, I've seen some "older" users (older as members and older in age) being equally arguable. Many times I've tried defusing situations that are getting out of hand, only to be reignited by other users who are apparently seeking a confrontation or just get a kick out of it. Still, I'm not saying all Americans are aggressive, nor that all aggressive people are Americans.

Would you say here in the opinions forum or on GTP as a whole?

Personally, I'd say in GTP as a whole. Coming from both mods and users. Nevertheless, I aggree with sukerkin's point of the fact that there are roughly 5 thousand members who post everyday and although you can be nice to some, after a while you start getting ticked.

To make it more to the point, but without getting personal; I've seen Euro mods/users answer a question or address an issue in a nicer or more patient way than American mods/users. Maybe it's just my view, maybe I'm biased towards looking more closely at the posts, or I make up the tone. But hey, it's an opinion.

 

[Lee]

Also, although it's common knowledge that younger users will tend to me more aggressive towards someone picking on them, I've seen some "older" users (older as members and older in age) being equally arguable.

its because of the differences we all have in our personal opinions.

??????

 

[Danoff]

But hey, it's an opinion.

I hate when people do this, as though we're all supposed to say "Well, he's got us there. It's an opinion so, I guess we should just sit here and listen to it and not say anything." Perhaps you think we're all supposed to just spout our opinions too, and that the whole opinion forum is just for people to spout their opinions and never really discuss or debate them.

Perhaps you don't care if your opinions are grounded in fact, or whether they make any sense, or whether you even understand them. Perhaps you're intellectually lazy enough to simply make up your mind without considering the options, perhaps your opinions are so loosely based that you can't be bothered to try to support them without an appeal to a general sense of everyone's illogical behavior. But when you come to the opinion forum and start spouting your opinions, you should know that people are going to challenge them. People are going to expect to hear the evidence by which you came to your conclusion, and they're going to want it to make sense.

If you don't care about quality of the evidence backing your opinions that's fine, but spare the rest of us from having to listen to them until you think you've reached a position you can actually be bothered to defend.

 

[Swift]

Personally, I'd say in GTP as a whole. Coming from both mods and users. Nevertheless, I aggree with sukerkin's point of the fact that there are roughly 5 thousand members who post everyday and although you can be nice to some, after a while you start getting ticked.

To make it more to the point, but without getting personal; I've seen Euro mods/users answer a question or address an issue in a nicer or more patient way than American mods/users. Maybe it's just my view, maybe I'm biased towards looking more closely at the posts, or I make up the tone. But hey, it's an opinion.

Hmm....well. I think that's more of an experience thing. I think when a mod sees someone post a topic for the umpteenth time and didn't bother to search, they don't take the time to be all nice and what not. Or when some starts attacking another member or other violation of the TOS or AUP. To be honest, when a member crosses the line, I think we should be polite, but not "nice".

Now, for the more gray areas where it's more of a personal interpretation of the TOS and AUP I can see where this can be construed aggression. But I don't think it is(as far as mods go). I believe it's just about, as you said, have a lot of area to cover and not a lot of time to do it in.

So, that's my take on it.

 

[Duke]

You try being called a stupid, fat, lazy, incompetent, tasteless, bigoted, arrogant bully for approximately 25-50% of all interaction you have with people from other countries.

See what that does for your levels of agressiveness.

 

[Lee]

You try being called a stupid, fat, lazy, incompetent, tasteless, bigoted, arrogant bully for approximately 25-50% of all interaction you have with people from other countries.

Wouldn't that be considered media influenced opinions though?

 

[Zardoz]

...I was once refused service in a restaurant in Madrid because I looked American...

Yeah, we Northern European/Mayan/Central African/Vietnamese/Eastern European/Japanese/Polynesian/Inuit/Middle Eastern/Native American/Scandinavian/Filipino/Mulatto/Cuban/Mandarin/Indian/Korean/Southern European/North African/Balkan/Turkish/Eurasian/Russian/Irish/Mongolian/Bengali/Indonesian/Puerto Rican/Incan/Jamaican/Maori/Central Asian/West African Yankees are really easy to identify, aren't we?

You can spot a damned American a mile away.

 

[Lee]

Britiains catching up with you yet....

 

[Duke]

Wouldn't that be considered media influenced opinions though?

Who knows where it comes from - we even deserve a potion of it, of course.

But having that as the default perception of your country and yourself is very tiresome, particularly when we are presumed to be a nation of bigots... which is of course a bigoted assumption. That kind of hypocrisy wears on us as a nation, and our tempers get short.

You can spot a damned American a mile away.

That's because we're all stupid, fat, lazy, incompetent, tasteless, bigoted, arrogant bullies.
👍

 

[ExigeEvan]

You try being called a stupid, fat, lazy, incompetent, tasteless, bigoted, arrogant bully for approximately 25-50% of all interaction you have with people from other countries.

See what that does for your levels of agressiveness.

Could you be more specific? That's a pretty large margin

I have noticed that the 'U.S v them' mentallity is growing steadily, IMO.
Probably because America is quite different in some respects to other 'western-ised' nations. But also because of the USAs large involvement in world affairs means it is always in the spotlight. Highlighting both good and bad.

So anything negative that happens is immediatley picked up on by other nationalities, this in a way makes it easier for them to retaliate towards American members because they know American current affairs.

Something that is probably less likely with other nations.

 

[Diego440]

Danoff: When I state it as being an opinion, I'm merely stating that what I'm saying is not written in blood nor is it tue. It's just my view on the subject. That's why I say it's an opinion, not because I'm intellectually lazy.

The reason why I opened this discussion in the Opinions forum is exactly so that people like you and I can express our opinion. I'm not sure that makes much sense... The whole point of the Opinions Forum is for people to comment on some subject and have other people argue or post their own opinions on said subject. As I just said, my opinion is just that, an opinion. If you have a better idea as to why all this happens, by all means, post it! But don't attribute it to my laziness, by all means.

My opinions are grounded on fact... on my experience and observation of other people's reactions. I say that perhaps I'm alone in the experience or that maybe I'm interpreting them the wrong way. I'm not perfect, and I make mistakes (a lot I'd say). Your post has too many uncertainties (maybe, perhaps, possibly, etc.), so I'd say it's you who isn't making a point that makes much sense. I'd say my opinion does make sense, since most people seem to understand it (except yourself). Nevertheless, since it's a freakin' opinion (and not written in blood as referenced before), anyone is free to challenge it with valid arguments.

In the overall sense, I find your post quite insulting. You've called me intellectually lazy and a spouter (someone who says stupid things)... you wouldn't happen to be from the States, would you?

You try being called a stupid, fat, lazy, incompetent, tasteless, bigoted, arrogant bully for approximately 25-50% of all interaction you have with people from other countries.

Been there, done that. Not that I'm rejecting the fact that it's happened to you, but I know what you mean, although I haven't been called those specific adjectives. That's exactly why I'm not specifying mod's actions, but looking at the broader picture of everyone. I seriously woudln't want this to become a Wity-like thread.

 

[FoolKiller]

Wouldn't that be considered media influenced opinions though?

That doesn't make us want to give people a hug for it. It still raises our aggression levels.

I do agree that most of the attitude toward Americans appears to be media influenced. Usually any anti-American sentiment seems founded in ideas that just aren't true. The US is too big of a country with too many regions and peoples to be defined by any one definition, yet somehow I constantly meet people from other countries that have just one view of the entire population.

It became obvious to me when I met non-American students in college. They came to the University of Kentucky expecting to find themelves surrounded by rude city dwellers from New York or LA that get portrayed in movies. Instead they come to Lexington, Kentucky and find horse farms as far as the eye can see, only one building tall enough to be called a skyscraper, and people that only get truly angry and yelling during basketball games. It's a different world than what you see of America in the media.

It's not all sunshine and roses. We have crime and rude people, but not to the extent some make America out to have. So when I get stuck with a broad generalization I do tend to become defensive.

 

[Danoff]

Danoff: When I state it as being an opinion, I'm merely stating that what I'm saying is not written in blood nor is it tue. It's just my view on the subject. That's why I say it's an opinion, not because I'm intellectually lazy.

The reason why I opened this discussion in the Opinions forum is exactly so that people like you and I can express our opinion. I'm not sure that makes much sense... The whole point of the Opinions Forum is for people to comment on some subject and have other people argue or post their own opinions on said subject. As I just said, my opinion is just that, an opinion. If you have a better idea as to why all this happens, by all means, post it! But don't attribute it to my laziness, by all means.

My opinions are grounded on fact... on my experience and observation of other people's reactions. I say that perhaps I'm alone in the experience or that maybe I'm interpreting them the wrong way. I'm not perfect, and I make mistakes (a lot I'd say). Your post has too many uncertainties (maybe, perhaps, possibly, etc.), so I'd say it's you who isn't making a point that makes much sense. I'd say my opinion does make sense, since most people seem to understand it (except yourself). Nevertheless, since it's a freakin' opinion (and not written in blood as referenced before), anyone is free to challenge it with valid arguments.

In the overall sense, I find your post quite insulting. You've called me intellectually lazy and a spouter (someone who says stupid things)... you wouldn't happen to be from the States, would you?

It's quite simple, when questioned about your stand you fell back on the old "it's only an opinion" cop-out.

That's lazy. Like I said before, "spare the rest of us... until you think you've reached a position you can actually be bothered to defend."

 

[Zardoz]

After the Soviet Union closed up shop and wandered off, the level of anti-American feelings worldwide began to increase (and have gotten more intense as our current bull-in-a-china shop administration has pursued its "unilateral" policies).

It comes with the territory when you're the only superpower left standing. Its lonely at the top...

 

[Diego440]

It's not all sunshine and roses. We have crime and rude people, but not to the extent some make America out to have. So when I get stuck with a broad generalization I do tend to become defensive.

True. I've also been the victim of such generalizations. It's not easy living in a small city like Buffalo, NY and being from Venezuela. In college I was in charge of giving the rest of international students a tour of campus and many times I had to start conversations with Americans. You should've heard what these people spoke about... talk about generalizations. These kids thought that all Arabs were terrorists; all Latin Americans are drug traffickers; Dutch are hooked on crack, cocaine and weed; and all German are drunks. That just gives you a little taste on the fact that wrong generalizations go both ways... in fact, they go every ways. I didn't know the difference between some cultures until then. In fact, one day two Arab guys once came up to me with a bet of where Venezuela is located. One said it is next to Norway and the other said it was a state in the US.

It's quite simple, when questioned about your stand you fell back on the old "it's only an opinion" cop-out.

Ummm... did you actually read the whoole post?

 

[Danoff]

Ummm... did you actually read the whoole post?

You mean this?

To make it more to the point, but without getting personal; I've seen Euro mods/users answer a question or address an issue in a nicer or more patient way than American mods/users. Maybe it's just my view, maybe I'm biased towards looking more closely at the posts, or I make up the tone. But hey, it's an opinion.

Yes I did. If you aren't sure that your opinion is right, then you shouldn't have it.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

Sorry, but if the Mods in this forum were effete waiters and not pound for pound beleivers in what they do, I would leave if i had'nt already fallen asleep . It'll take too long to find the exact quote but i made some off the cuff remark about up-tightness in an opinions thread and Swift responded , within like 2 minutes , that such-and-such is sacrosanct " and this is coming from one of the most uptight nations on the planet " which i thought an appropriate response to what was probably a fuzzy post on my part . He was'nt wearing his mod hat at that juncture but he was keeping me awake , i.e i was'nt about to make any more sloppy posts when there was someone on the other end of the line and not some automated yo-yo from the eve forums or whatever u.s.w....

 

[Young_Warrior]

You guys tottaly lost me now on this subject I cant even be bothered to read half the posts as allot of it has strayed.

Lets just leave it up to football to settle our differences in the next world cup. The team that gets further wins.

 

[Young_Warrior]

In America, food is very cheap, very plentiful, and forms an integral part of all social meetings...it's very rare that more than 5 Americans get together without eating within an hour or so.

Just a quick qoute Ive taken fron another forum about a discussion of the amount of food and how it effects a persons size and how genetics are effected in the long run.
I post this as it shows the average attitude of a non american however this qoute is also obviously laced with an intent to create humour.

It did actually make me laugh out loud but I dont live by sterotypes.

 

[sukerkin]

A couple of excellent posts from FoolKiller and Zardoz that I think summate quite nicely my views on America at the macro level.

The only city in North America I've ever been to is Chicago and altho' I was there for eight hours, all I saw was the airport. What I observed there reinforced the 'stereotypes' I've been fed via the media (particularly the spectacularly rude, 9000 stone, chap-with-a-chip-on-his-shoulder at passport control/check-in).

However, I didn't for a second think that this is representative of all America or all Americans and I've quite often dreamed of taking a little tour about the continent to see all the trully spectacular countryside you have and, importantly, get a feel for what the non-city-dwellers are like.

Of course, due to the net, I've been able to frequently correspond with Americans of all stripes and that works quite well for getting you to see the spectrum of human traits.

Gradually stepping back to Dieggo's initial point, here at the Planet, tho', I do have to confess that, until very recently, I really only 'corresponded' with a small group of members that I met years back and got on with like a house on fire.

The vast majority of posters I do feel are far too aggressive in their posts and far to ready to give offence and take umbridge at remarks that, as far as I could tell, were meant in a humerous fashion.

However, forum browsing is a communications skill like any other and there are a few straightforward rules I find help.

Those that can't even spell are easy to avoid - I see "3" where there should be "E"and I move on ... simple .

Those with an axe to grind or a glee in being disruptive are likewise clearly visible (deleted a comment about 'banning' here having decided that it's not my place to opine on that).

Those that are unnecessarily combative but are intelligent are harder to spot but it usually only takes a couple of posts to learn to leave them well alone.

Then there are those like Z, FK and YW (sorry for your blushes gentlemen) who I quite quickly 'take' to, if you catch my drift.

It's just like life but with fewer (usually ) words.

Overall, I think that, as I said several posts ago, that most of the loud-mouthed aggressive behaviour comes from the huge inrush of less mature (not necessarily anything to do with physical age of course) members with the release of the new game. I'm assuming that the majority of GTP's members are American? If that's the case then that rather neatly explains the overall impression Deiggo has garnered.

Phew, finished ... and largely on-topic too :huzzar: ROFL.